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Interesting caveat for a game where being weak is in itself an achievement.
Exactly and It's an especially worthless achievement when you realize regardless of when you're attacked unless your enemy has a 10 to 1 troop advantage it's quite easy to hold the ai back the braindead ai and sign a white peace, the ai loves a good white peace regardless of how realistically it should probably keep fighting.

Not to mention you can always bail yourself out by quickly allying yourself with someone mid war because the Devs for some reason thought that was a good idea and they'll fight for you no matter what because the ai doesn't understand the political situation and that it gains nothing from aiding a weak ally that's already losing a war.
 
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Exactly and It's an especially worthless achievement when you realize regardless of when you're attacked unless your enemy has a 10 to 1 troop advantage it's quite easy to hold the ai back the braindead ai and sign a white peace, the ai loves a good white peace regardless of how realistically it should probably keep fighting.

Not to mention you can always bail yourself out by quickly allying yourself with someone mid war because the Devs for some reason thought that was a good idea and they'll fight for you no matter what because the ai doesn't understand the political situation and that it gains nothing from aiding a weak ally that's already losing a war.
The -50 to marriages for already being at war is easily countered too with all dlcs enabled
 
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I feel like many people defending the AI's passivity assume that those of us criticizing it don't play on Ironman or impose RP-focused restrictions on ourselves.


I can’t speak for everyone, but in my thousand hours of playing, I’ve never felt truly challenged by the AI, even as an RP-focused player who constantly limits myself and plays on ironman. I let Confederate partitions happen and only consolidate when it fits my character’s traits. When educating my children, I assign skilled AI tutors and leave the outcome to chance. I appoint generals based on what makes sense for my character, regardless of their skill. I rarely close my gates during plagues and will accept a war loss if it feels like it would have harmed my character politically, even if my army is strong and the warscore is still in my favor. I play with obfuscate and avoid cheesy murder schemes unless they align with my character’s motivations.


This playstyle is exactly why I’m so frustrated with the AI. I put in so much effort to immerse myself, yet the game doesn’t do the same. Some people claim the AI plays like a medieval lord, but I find that baffling—what medieval lord behaves the way the AI does? The AI fails to prioritize basic things like securing succession, forging strong alliances, or conquering weak neighbors. It randomly falls into massive debt, starts tyranny wars it’s destined to lose, and spirals into stress, leaving it incapable of action. It often sits idle as I conquer its neighbors, refusing to form alliances to protect itself. In imperial realms, the AI neglects to secure its dynasty’s future by investing in its heir, letting the throne pass to a random character and ending its dynastic control of the empire.


I can’t keep playing a game that doesn’t value the time or effort I invest. The devs keep adding mechanics that are fun in isolation but fail when the AI can’t handle the added complexity. Meanwhile, some fans deflect criticism, blaming players for engaging with the mechanics or assuming we’re gaming the system. It’s frustrating when they dismiss concerns, often because they themselves may not fully understand the game.


I’m not asking for the game to be universally harder or for the AI to be flawless. I know I’ll always have the upper hand over the AI. I’m simply asking for more options to tailor the experience to individual playstyles and for the AI to better understand and utilize the mechanics. It should behave like it’s part of a medieval simulator, rather than whatever it’s currently doing.
Have you played with the new iberian struggle off game rule? Ive found the ai being able to holy war there again makes them actually aggressive enough as they were within the first decades after 1066. But the rest of the game, and especially tribal europe is far too inert, gone are the ck2 days of the nordic and baltic kingdoms forming within a gen or 2 and then subjugating one another. Even northmen invaders rarely expand beyond initial land, despite their massive stack of event troops, same with the ragnarsons in britain
 
The passivity of AI is one of those areas where the 'just roleplay bro' argument goes from bad to ludicrous. Hell, I love playing in Mali. What kind of roleplaying am I supposed to do to solve the inertia of tribal Europe? Malian Gold Development Loans?

The devs clearly agree the answer is none. So they created the conqueror lottery. The AI won't play the game, so once in a while a ruler gets to cheat.
 
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Atp I'm waiting for the chapter 4 announcement to see if theyre directly addressing difficulty, vassal management, and AI aggression or not it's probably past time to accept this game is for a different kind of player
 
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I feel like many people defending the AI's passivity assume that those of us criticizing it don't play on Ironman or impose RP-focused restrictions on ourselves.

You seem to be under the impression that when I say the AI isn't passive I am also telling you the AI is good. That is not the case.

When I say that the AI is not passive, I mean just that. I've even pointed out some flaws in AI behavior in this discussion (it's really bad at understanding military strength as I've mentioned directly). I would also say that the AI has difficulties budgeting for buildings, creating MAA, and appeasing powerful vassals. When I play as a vassal, it's too easy to scam my liege and conspire against them.

The AI has problems, but passivity is not one of them. The AI spends plenty of time doing schemes and fighting wars. I'm not kidding when I say that as a landless mercenary, I see plenty of wars in various parts of the map. They only stop when all of the realms in the area run out of money (because they paid me). And I see plenty of factions against weak rulers. But the fact that my time as a mercenary assumes I will earn significant cash from stackwipes indicates that there is a competence issue with the AI.

But I wouldn't say that the low difficulty is solely the result of AI. There are mechanical issues that make the game easy once you (the player) understand a few basic things.

1) MAA optimization means levies are worthless outside of numerical deterrent past the earliest part of the game. But the AI does not really "understand" this. I know the AI can't really understand this concept like a human does, it does not behave in a way that accounts for it.

2) Because non-admin vassals never give you MAA, a ruler's military strength does not depend on vassals. 75% of the realm could revolt against me, and I don't miss the levies, just the tax revenue.

3) Because non-admin titles more or less lose 100% of MAA when you revoke titles, it's easy to "reset" powerful vassals via revocation. Sure, the Duke of Norfolk might have 6 MAA, but if you yank his titles for any reason and hand that duchy out to someone else, they are starting at either zero MAA or whatever they had before.

4) Once you reach a certain size, MAA caps limit your military strength more than money. This is one reason why cultural traditions and accolades that increase MAA sizes are so popular. But that means levies are further reduced in importance.

5) Miltary campaigns are really generous with supply. It's not uncommon for me to keep an army in the field for years at a time without even worrying about supply. And because MAA are so efficient at combat, going lean and mean with your army and just using MAA means supply is rarely an issue. There is no seasonal warfare in the game. The game would be more difficult if you had to turn around and go home periodically and disband your armies.

So, I wouldn't say the AI is great. But I also wouldn't say it is passive. However, I also think there are mechanics that make the game much easier than it really should be.
 
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You know how in these games like Skyrim where the NPCs goes "hmm I guess it was the wind" next to a corpse of a comrade. Pretty much the same in CK3, you could be swatting a noble family like flies and they have similar reaction.
 
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Is it just me or is the AI generally super passive? Not just in terms of foreign empires or kingdoms expanding military, but also in terms of AI characters within your same kingdom or realm just being generally super passive?

The AI never fears their families or dynasty would be losing in terms of influence and prestige within the the same realm. They don't see rivals potentially upstaging them in terms of prominence.

When historically, we saw nobles constantly trying to upstage each other either by showing off their wealth and power with new manors, new artwork and so on. Every noble is in a competition with each other to ensure they don't lose out.

But so far none of the AI is coded that way? There is no sense that the Ai understands the concept of "fear of losing out"?
200 years into my game and i noticed Ai is very passive. Exept for byzantine and Al andalus rulers whoare blobing.
I don't mind AI being little less aggressive but they even don't care about their Dejure lands. AI should always prioritize conquering its Dejure land
Also The wars that do happen are stupid artifact wars that drag on and on because AI goes off to siege some pointles counties far away and nearly never battles opposing armies
 
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ou can get most of the benefits of playing at an Imperial level without being an Empire.
Yea, it happened to me. played as duke of burgundy most of the game and was able to hold against France and Germany. My issue is that when Ai goes to war if not to get his dejure counties back or expand into new ones...its because of silly artifacts. Imagine HRE and France going to war where thousands die because some king lost his childhood milktooth artifact.....
 
200 years into my game and i noticed Ai is very passive. Exept for byzantine and Al andalus rulers whoare blobing.
I don't mind AI being little less aggressive but they even don't care about their Dejure lands. AI should always prioritize conquering its Dejure land
Also The wars that do happen are stupid artifact wars that drag on and on because AI goes off to siege some pointles counties far away and nearly never battles opposing armies
Exactly I agree 100%, dejure land wars should be the number one priority for the ai, it's insane how France sometimes just let's England keep it's angevin lands because of the AI's passivity.

It's even more insane how when the ai does decide to start a war it's almost always something stupid like for a random county, artifact wars or a tyranny war caused by the ai taking lands randomly from its Vassals.
 
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The funny thing is that in my last five games the moment I've displayed a hint of weakness the AI has invaded.
actually happened to me. Was fighting Italy in the alps and the battles were very costly and some count in France declared war on my for some county. Unfortunatly for him the retinue reinforce rate is so fast he got completely destroyed.
 
Part of this is a problem with the concept of 'passive' in a game with a very limited player-centric perspective.

The AI will go to war. The AI will partake in plots. The AI will engage in feuds. The AI will expand, will fracture, will have civil wars and expend their resources (prestige or gold) needed to continue more wars and use hooks for contracts and so on.

It's just, you know, the AI will mostly do that against other AI, and so you the player will never notice the vast majority of the things the AI does. As a result, the AI can simultaneously be very busy, and very passive, because what they do is not apparent or directly impacting the player.

This is especially true if what the AI does do is run itself into a 'can't start more wars' state- such as tribals using up all their prestige on MAA and thus losing the ability to sustain wars, or feudals going deep into debt. As war is the most obvious AI activity for the player to notice, a lack of war for inability-driven-by-previous decisions is at first glance indistinguishable from passivity-by-choice-despite-ability.

Given that in the early game especially- the 867 start where most players start and spend most of their time- the AI is too economically depressed to afford constant actions, this in turn leads to conflations of passivity (a choice not to act) with inability (the AI is unable to afford to act).




The other part is this- a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Paradox AI is.

Paradox AI is not intelligent in the sense that you understand intellignece. It cannot be coded to be intelligent, because no one knows how to actually do that- there's a reason the most advanced AI in the world are basically language token generators predicting responses off of syntax patterns. There is no concept of the AI 'understanding,' or 'fear,' or 'seeing.' These are not abstractions that Paradox AI can do. This is not 'but they could feel fear if Paradox wanted them to,' this is 'Paradox does not know how to make an AI understand the concept of 'the future,' because the AI does not have the concept of concepts.'

What Paradox AI actually do is follow general build orders (in games with more economic build-systems), sequences of what to build when certain resources are available based on current resource amounts and streams, and make weighted decisions where certain types of decisions (event choices, military customization, war declaration thresholds) are more or less likely based on categories called AI personality traits. When a choice check is made, the code checks for if a sufficient thresholds are met as preconditions (does the character have the necessary requirements to do a war if it wanted to), and then makes choices between decisions on relative weighting (higher personality weights lead to certain decisions more often- but not always- over weaker personality weights). This is true of basically every Paradox game- some balance between AI personality weights and pre-scripted build orders.


In CK3 (and in CK2), these paradigms are known as the AI personality, which are dominated by character personality traits. Other traits, including lifestyle mastery traits, can increase AI personality values, but the dominant factors are the AI personality trait overlaps. For example, the AI trait of 'Boldeness' does the following-



Well, the character trait Brave is +200 boldness, and Craven is -200 boldness when the spectrum for decisions is +/- 100. In effect, characters with these traits will sit at the extreme for their entire life, making decisions accordingly.

And CK3 AI personality does drive AI decision making! If you look at how AI with resources to act act over time, it's consistent with what their personality types indicate 'should' happen. This is arguably even more important than CK2 AI personality weights, since the CK2 personality system was far less consistent and liable to change on the RNG of societies and standard event pools. CK3 characters have far more distinct AI personalities for the entire lives, rather than a wash of everyone acting more or less the same due to eventually having more or less the same traits over lifetimes.

But- and this is back to your discontent- weighted decision making is inherently reactive. It is computationally 'cheap'- it's something within Paradox's ability to provide- but it does not make decisions on even the most basic premise of patience. Resources are available, resources are expended according to present conditions and probabilities, and that output is potentially 'characteristic' but has no actual thought behind it.

(Later Edit: This structure is also why the Conqueror trait is so impactful for AI behavior. The conqueror functionally faces no resource constraints to declaring or maintaining wars. The Conqueror isn't 'planning' for future growth- it's just reacting faster since it has fewer forced pauses on expansion actions.)
What a remarkably well-written and thoughtful post.
 
What a remarkably well-written and thoughtful post.
It's too bad it isn't true

The issue isn't just that the AI doesn't interact with the player it's that the AI doesn't interact with itself in interesting ways

Nobody is complaining that fx the ERE doesn't go to war, the problem is that it spends the entire game eating tiny countries in the steppe and after the Seljuks collapse so it grows enormously and never gains any meaningful enemies. It's even worse in reverse with the Seljuks rarely pushing the ERE and never breaking it to the extent that they did IRL because after the first war (which they often manage to lose) they never push deep into Anatolia because the AI doesn't prioritize warring against strong states for rich territory

We know the AI will scheme against the player and others but it does so without purpose. It isn't trying to climb the social ladder or gain vengeance against its enemies, the AI just selects a scheme and target at random



My problem, and others probably have different ones, is that AI-AI interaction is as uninteresting as AI-Player interaction. France can collapse (not because it was pushed but because the AI can't manage even single culture/religion vassals) and the AI will rarely use war or diplomacy to put it back together. The pieces will just sit there for 200 years slowly getting eaten by whichever blob manages not to explode or by the nearest conqueror. This means if I want verisimilitude I have to play a TC mod where this makes sense or I have to play world police ensuring the strong are brought low and the weak are protected which is a boring way to play
 
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We know the AI will scheme against the player and others but it does so without purpose. It isn't trying to climb the social ladder or gain vengeance against its enemies, the AI just selects a scheme and target at random

I guess this is the problem of not making every AI character an agent that can have even a semi coherent plan or strategy on what it wants and what it's goals are?

AI characters seems extremely content for the most part and would rarely desire for anything more. Unless it's cheating on their spouse. That the AI seems to desire all the time.
 
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Because its a 'The Sims' game. It's literally just that with the a medieval makeover. It hilarious how people are just starting to realising that, 15 DLCs in.
Which is truly sad for me, for i enjoyed CK2 for what it was - mix of strategy and RPG. And i just can't enjoy CK3 as successor of CK2, due it's having very different direction and priorities.
 
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You seem to be under the impression that when I say the AI isn't passive I am also telling you the AI is good. That is not the case.

When I say that the AI is not passive, I mean just that. I've even pointed out some flaws in AI behavior in this discussion (it's really bad at understanding military strength as I've mentioned directly). I would also say that the AI has difficulties budgeting for buildings, creating MAA, and appeasing powerful vassals. When I play as a vassal, it's too easy to scam my liege and conspire against them.

The AI has problems, but passivity is not one of them. The AI spends plenty of time doing schemes and fighting wars. I'm not kidding when I say that as a landless mercenary, I see plenty of wars in various parts of the map. They only stop when all of the realms in the area run out of money (because they paid me). And I see plenty of factions against weak rulers. But the fact that my time as a mercenary assumes I will earn significant cash from stackwipes indicates that there is a competence issue with the AI.

But I wouldn't say that the low difficulty is solely the result of AI. There are mechanical issues that make the game easy once you (the player) understand a few basic things.

1) MAA optimization means levies are worthless outside of numerical deterrent past the earliest part of the game. But the AI does not really "understand" this. I know the AI can't really understand this concept like a human does, it does not behave in a way that accounts for it.

2) Because non-admin vassals never give you MAA, a ruler's military strength does not depend on vassals. 75% of the realm could revolt against me, and I don't miss the levies, just the tax revenue.

3) Because non-admin titles more or less lose 100% of MAA when you revoke titles, it's easy to "reset" powerful vassals via revocation. Sure, the Duke of Norfolk might have 6 MAA, but if you yank his titles for any reason and hand that duchy out to someone else, they are starting at either zero MAA or whatever they had before.

4) Once you reach a certain size, MAA caps limit your military strength more than money. This is one reason why cultural traditions and accolades that increase MAA sizes are so popular. But that means levies are further reduced in importance.

5) Miltary campaigns are really generous with supply. It's not uncommon for me to keep an army in the field for years at a time without even worrying about supply. And because MAA are so efficient at combat, going lean and mean with your army and just using MAA means supply is rarely an issue. There is no seasonal warfare in the game. The game would be more difficult if you had to turn around and go home periodically and disband your armies.

So, I wouldn't say the AI is great. But I also wouldn't say it is passive. However, I also think there are mechanics that make the game much easier than it really should be.
So you are saying that the AI isn't passive but looks passive because it's incompetent? If that's the case I think this is what needs to be worked on.

CK3 has a lot more complex mechanics than CK2 where most of the immersion was based on RNG events (saying it as a good thing!) at it would simply mess your run because some random event you had no control over happened (again, good thing!).

But in CK3 with so many, for lack of a better term... buttons... it also becomes harder for AI to keep up or make all the right decisions. As well as harder for AI to be programmed well. Which is understandable. But at the same time, 90% of this game is interactions with AI so the AI needs to be improved.
 
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So you are saying that the AI isn't passive but looks passive because it's incompetent? If that's the case I think this is what needs to be worked on.

I agree. It makes some rather bad choices.

But the game's mechanics are also easier than they really should be in certain situations. The medieval flavor can be lost when, for example, I'm regenerating my stack of 10,000 MAA longbowmen in enemy territory and maintain their full strength in an offensive campaign that lasts for five years never once demobilizing.
 
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