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The game needs to be mirror balanced.

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o0970o

Sergeant
Sep 4, 2017
64
0
I'm a team-player, and I often play with my team, get around 90% win rate as axis, include drops. But only about
60% as alies.
The problem is, alies are better for 1v1/2v2 ranked, but axis just far more better in team playing.

As you see, alies have far more less unipue units. That means they get better combat system on individually division, so they are better for 1v1, but simply get crushed in team playing.

Officially thinks about development alies should get advantage in first 15min, if they don't it will lose most time. And a 4v4 should be 500-500-500-500 vs 500-500-500-500 at beginning. But in fact, we always play as 1000 - 250 - 500 - 250 and win. Because 250 pts units can hold the ground against 500 pts units, but 500 units can not hold 1000 pts units in this game, at least for alies.
The key problem is the combination of AXIS units between unique units are too strong. Like 116th/21st rush + hs 129/ju87g, just no way to stop this without suffering heavy losses. Another example is 116th/21st + 12ss or 716th on open terrains. 20mm rush follow with firefly/88 to snipe out any armor that try to stop the push, and Cromwell or ju88 to kill heavy ATs.
20mm train, firefly/88/hs129 in A, all of them are AXIS unique units, and these combo are extremely powerful that no way to stop these.

How to fix that? The answer is simple, make the game mirror balanced. German got 20mm AC with AP, so give alies some crusaders AA with AP in support deck. German can spam flak88, so give alies 90mm AA too. So they can do same combo as axis do. And forget "alies win early game, axis win with late game", make axis can win in phase A in normal game when alies can win in phase C.

"Mirror balanced" is not totally mirrored, due to the units stats different, it is impossible. But it means it should be part to part, like if axis got phase B units in phase A, alies will do so too. For now, alies needs long range arty, high caliber AA, autocannon w/ AP, rocket launcher, ISG, and enough phase B units in phase A to be mirrored. And all of axis need is medium tanks (french little boys not counted) in phase A.

Look at company of heroes 2, when the game was released in 2013, it got only 5000 player base, the was like SD44: it's not mirror balanced, alies get advantage in 1v1，axis wins more in multi, alies need to push hard in early, axis win the later game, alies need to micro better than axis to win.

But after one year they add Okw and American, and then british to make the game mirror balanced. Both nations get basic infantry, high end infantry, Hmg, mortar, isg, AT infantry, medium tanks, high end medium tanks, TD... the only difference is alies got emplacement and axis got super heavy tanks.
The player base of coh2 increased to over 12000 after they do this. And keep it around 8000 in a long time. Even it hasn't any big upgrade of this game after 2 years and it's 4 years after the game released, player base is still around 5000.

That's the only way to increase the player base or it will never be fixed.
 
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o0970o said:
I'm a team-player, and I ofen play with my team, get around 90% win rate as axis, include drops. But only about
60% as alies.
The problem is, alies are better for 1v1/2v2 ranked, but axis just far more better in team playing.

As you see, alies have far more less unipue units. That means they get better combat system on individually division, so they are better for 1v1, but simply get crushed in team playing.

Officially thinks about development alies should get advantage in first 15min, if they don't it will lose most time. And a 4v4 should be 500-500-500-500 vs 500-500-500-500 at beginning. But in fact, we always play as 1000 - 250 - 500 - 250 and win. Because 250 pts units can hold the ground against 500 pts units, but 500 units can not hold 1000 pts units in this game, at least for alies.
The key problem is the combination of AXIS units between unique units are too strong. Like 116th/21st rush + hs 129/ju87g, just no way to stop this without suffering heavy losses. Another example is 116th/21st + 12ss or 716th on open terrains. 20mm rush follow with firefly/88 to snipe out any armor that try to stop the push, and Cromwell or ju88 to kill heavy ATs.
20mm train, firefly/88/hs129 in A, all of them are AXIS unique units, and these combo are extremely powerful that no way to stop these.

How to fix that? The answer is simple, make the game mirror balanced. German got 20mm AC with AP, so give alies some crusaders AA with AP in support deck. German can spam flak88, so give alies 90mm AA too. So they can do same combo as axis do. And forget "alies win early game, axis win with late game", make axis can win in phase A in normal game when alies can win in phase C.

That's the only way to fix the balance problem, or it will never be fixed.
Click to expand...

You canno't win every game, sometimes you just don't have the right combination on one map and as you don't choose the map in quick/ranked you canno't know which decks will work together. The allies do not get crushed in teamplay by all means. In open maps against german armor decks, they'll obviously struggle in phase C, so they have to make max ground in phase A to get points. But it's magic, panzer lehr should be struggling against infantry pushing their line with smoke.

Counter to planes is well placed AA, when you suppose a german player has HS129 or JU87g early in his deck, you should expect them and bring AA way before they come, close to your armor. Then you will have your planes to finish the job. These two german planes are slow as hell, the jug87g is 350kmh, they do not stay alive long.
The 88 is a big thing which fires at 1200m but is slow as hell, i'd strongly advise artillery once it's revealed.

What i most see are allied players not able to play together except with planes, too many 1vs1 perhaps? Cause, bring an expensive 88 in the side of your teamate to prevent airstrike on its side is teamplay.
Get a 101st with a 3rd canadian, we'll see if it's not strong...
 
Gilmund said:
You canno't win every game, sometimes you just don't have the right combination on one map and as you don't choose the map in quick/ranked you canno't know which decks will work together. The allies do not get crushed in teamplay by all means. In open maps against german armor decks, they'll obviously struggle in phase C, so they have to make max ground in phase A to get points. But it's magic, panzer lehr should be struggling against infantry pushing their line with smoke.

Counter to planes is well placed AA, when you suppose a german player has HS129 or JU87g early in his deck, you should expect them and bring AA way before they come, close to your armor. Then you will have your planes to finish the job. These two german planes are slow as hell, the jug87g is 350kmh, they do not stay alive long.
The 88 is a big thing which fires at 1200m but is slow as hell, i'd strongly advise artillery once it's revealed.

What i most see are allied players not able to play together except with planes, too many 1vs1 perhaps? Cause, bring an expensive 88 in the side of your teamate to prevent airstrike on its side is teamplay.
Get a 101st with a 3rd canadian, we'll see if it's not strong...
Click to expand...
Talking about ranked or quick is meanless, because you never get a match with that in 3v3/4v4...
Sure, we don't win evrytime, because we also make mistakes, and sometimes we just pick random decks, for fun. but I think 90% win rate tells something.
Well, we all know we needs arty and AA to counter 88s and planes. But when you face a team it's really suicide, that means you only have 300pts when you face the 20mm rush, and no one will survive.
A well placed AA always is a good counter to hs129, but as I said, the 20mm ACs will crush them if they are too close to the front. So in the early game hs129 and ju87 won't face any trouble but planes. But yea, 20mm ACs also have AA abilities, and 3FJ got vet 2 bf109 to escort, so, it's hopeless to stop they kill or rout the medium tanks that can stop ACs rush.
Most time, at the end of phase A, it will be hard time to axis, because the rush is done and reinforce are on their way, at the meantime they need to save money for phase B, so it can be changed from +1 to -1, but if your enemy decide to save money too and not push that hard, it will maintain +1 and it's gg.
Well, the lose only happened when axis have been pushed too far. But most of times we win. Because axis can save their money but alies can not. When the powerful units come to the front at about 12min alies will be pushed back, if not, axis still get advantage in open terrains and give high pressure to alies. That's how axis teams win.
88s spam happens because they are OP, they kills everything they meet, with 3 88 you can kill fighters or even instantly rout them. The long rang allows it protect both of you and your alies. There won't be any way to deal with them but arty and huge air raid. But you know, 352+716 is made for this, sk18s counter arty and 716th got vet2 88s make them extremely difficult to kill.
101st + 3ID is good, but their combination between another divisions are weak. You know it needs 2 more divisions to play a 4vs4
 
Well imo "mirror balance" is really the last thing this game needs, that's not the point of having 2 factions with 9 divisions each. Big part of what makes this game interesting is looking at each divisions strenght / weaknesses and trying to utilize this information in game - mirror matchups would just be boring to me.
 
Mirror balancing is possibly the worst thing you could possibly do to this game. Here a tip: allies have a higher skill ceiling than axis
 
"Mirror balanced" is not totally mirrored, due to the units stats different, it is impossible. But it means it should be part to part, like if axis got phase B units in phase A, alies will do so too. For now, alies needs long range arty, high caliber AA, autocannon w/ AP, rocket launcher, ISG, and enough phase B units in phase A to be mirrored. And all of axis need is medium tanks (french little boys not counted) in phase A.

Look at company of heroes 2, when the game was released in 2013, it got only 5000 player base, the was like SD44: it's not mirror balanced, alies get advantage in 1v1，axis wins more in multi, alies need to push hard in early, axis win the later game, alies need to micro better than axis to win.

But after one year they add Okw and American, and then british to make the game mirror balanced. Both nations get basic infantry, high end infantry, Hmg, mortar, isg, AT infantry, medium tanks, high end medium tanks, TD... the only difference is alies got emplacement and axis got super heavy tanks.
The player base of coh2 increased to over 12000 after they do this. And keep it around 8000 in a long time. Even it hasn't any big upgrade of this game after 2 years and it's 4 years after the game released, player base is still around 5000.
 
o0970o said:
"Mirror balanced" is not totally mirrored, due to the units stats different, it is impossible. But it means it should be part to part, like if axis got phase B units in phase A, alies will do so too. For now, alies needs long range arty, high caliber AA, autocannon w/ AP, rocket launcher, ISG, and enough phase B units in phase A to be mirrored. And all of axis need is medium tanks (french little boys not counted) in phase A.

Look at company of heroes 2, when the game was released in 2013, it got only 5000 player base, the was like SD44: it's not mirror balanced, alies get advantage in 1v1，axis wins more in multi, alies need to push hard in early, axis win the later game, alies need to micro better than axis to win.

But after one year they add Okw and American, and then british to make the game mirror balanced. Both nations get basic infantry, high end infantry, Hmg, mortar, isg, AT infantry, medium tanks, high end medium tanks, TD... the only difference is alies got emplacement and axis got super heavy tanks.
The player base of coh2 increased to over 12000 after they do this. And keep it around 8000 in a long time. Even it hasn't any big upgrade of this game after 2 years and it's 4 years after the game released, player base is still around 5000.
Click to expand...

uh h h the entire point of coh 2 and SD gameplay is that both revolve around asymmetrical balance . . . coh 2 to lesser extent but still

that is until community balance patch guy came around and started rekking the game , but thankfully relic pulled the plug ^-^
 
If by wrecking you mean bringing balance to the best state yet in COH2 history according to the entire COH2 community, then sure, lol.

And I agree, COH2 massively benefitted from efforts to make things more even in the early game. 1v1 had previously been biased toward Allies, but relic and community patch swung him that to a more even place while also giving US and soviets some endgame power.
 
o0970o said:
Talking about ranked or quick is meanless, because you never get a match with that in 3v3/4v4...
Sure, we don't win evrytime, because we also make mistakes, and sometimes we just pick random decks, for fun. but I think 90% win rate tells something.
Well, we all know we needs arty and AA to counter 88s and planes. But when you face a team it's really suicide, that means you only have 300pts when you face the 20mm rush, and no one will survive.
A well placed AA always is a good counter to hs129, but as I said, the 20mm ACs will crush them if they are too close to the front. So in the early game hs129 and ju87 won't face any trouble but planes. But yea, 20mm ACs also have AA abilities, and 3FJ got vet 2 bf109 to escort, so, it's hopeless to stop they kill or rout the medium tanks that can stop ACs rush.
Most time, at the end of phase A, it will be hard time to axis, because the rush is done and reinforce are on their way, at the meantime they need to save money for phase B, so it can be changed from +1 to -1, but if your enemy decide to save money too and not push that hard, it will maintain +1 and it's gg.
Well, the lose only happened when axis have been pushed too far. But most of times we win. Because axis can save their money but alies can not. When the powerful units come to the front at about 12min alies will be pushed back, if not, axis still get advantage in open terrains and give high pressure to alies. That's how axis teams win.
88s spam happens because they are OP, they kills everything they meet, with 3 88 you can kill fighters or even instantly rout them. The long rang allows it protect both of you and your alies. There won't be any way to deal with them but arty and huge air raid. But you know, 352+716 is made for this, sk18s counter arty and 716th got vet2 88s make them extremely difficult to kill.
101st + 3ID is good, but their combination between another divisions are weak. You know it needs 2 more divisions to play a 4vs4
Click to expand...

HS 129 are the only tank killers in german infantry decks except AT and most of them do not come in phase A.. They have nothing much than Stug 3G.
You'd think, phase B incoming, you'd have time to build AA or planes in phase A to counter any air engagement.
Then you do speak about HS129 (with 2 vetted ME109) or 88m (like they are six-packs) but you never speak about the overall cost. You may bring at least 3 allied AA pieces for one 88. And these 88 have already been nerfed (they were beast, it was before). Again, your 3 planes cost around 400 points, meaning there is 400 less points in ground units.
Plus, 3 88 in the field, you serious ? It is mostly late game against a player you or your teammates are sitting against, you never have the points to bring that many 88 early if you been pushed by a good player. And if you do bring them too early to keep your frontline, you are so doomed when they start to be disabled by enemy artillery.
I feel you should observe how the german players are doing their job cause maybe they are just better than you and your teammates. Usually you get crushed when you don't do enough, you canno't. In conquest you have to make ground and you can often afford to loose some units in the process. It is risk-reward and it's very good.
 
Gilmund said:
HS 129 are the only tank killers in german infantry decks except AT and most of them do not come in phase A.. They have nothing much than Stug 3G.
You'd think, phase B incoming, you'd have time to build AA or planes in phase A to counter any air engagement.
Then you do speak about HS129 (with 2 vetted ME109) or 88m (like they are six-packs) but you never speak about the overall cost. You may bring at least 3 allied AA pieces for one 88. And these 88 have already been nerfed (they were beast, it was before). Again, your 3 planes cost around 400 points, meaning there is 400 less points in ground units.
Plus, 3 88 in the field, you serious ? It is mostly late game against a playeyr you or your teammates are sitting against, you never have the points to bring that many 88 early if you been pushed by a good player. And if you do bring them too early to keep your frontline, you are so doomed when they start to be disabled by enemy artillery.
I feel you should observe how the german players are doing their job cause maybe they are just better than you and your teammates. Usually you get crushed when you don't do enough, you canno't. In conquest you have to make ground and you can often afford to loose some units in the process. It is risk-reward and it's very good.
Click to expand...
Well, you know how teamworks should be. Counting on income on a individual division in 3v3/4v4 just is stupid. A exempel is 116th + 3Fj + 716th, 116th spend all of his 500pts on 20mm train, 716th spend 200pts on 116th side, maybe a ju88 blind bombing at beginning, or 88 with infantry. 3Fj use all of his pts on his side, but save 50 pts.
When the 20mm train reach the front at 2min, 116th can spawn a vet 1 bf109, and 3Fj spawn hs129, and alies wont get any way to stop the hs 129 to kill tanks.
And... I don't think I need to look at how another axis players play at this moment, hmm, maybe if we can see another teams replay who get above winrate 90% as axis.
88 is still a beast at all. First it cost only 135 so it means 716th can deploy them nearly every minute. Second, the only nerf is for its suppression, but they buffed its damage after that, and it already have been buffed against explosive dmg as a AT unit, and it got 12 men...
 
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o0970o said:
Well, you know how teamworks should be. Counting on income on a individual division in 3v3/4v4 just is stupid. A exempel is 116th + 3Fj + 12th, 116th spend all of his 500pts on 20mm train, 716th spend 200pts on 116th side, maybe a ju88 blind bombing at beginning, or 88 with infantry. 3Fj use all of his pts on his side, but save 50 pts.
When the 20mm train reach the front at 2min, 116th can spawn a vet 1 bf109, and 3Fj spawn hs129, and alies wont get any way to stop the hs 129 to kill tanks
Click to expand...

It is true, it's called teamwork but teamwork i know still face 4 players to 4 other players. Or you mean ugly 2vs1 but it goes both sides. If you do complain about one german player bringing his deadly assets to support his teammates, you should also complain about your teamate facing this precise german player and not doing his job to push him and prevent him to bring his deadly assets. I've experencied many games when you indeed loose against opposite teamplay cause one of your teamates is just bad, sits in his treelines doing nothing when he has his +1.
More you split your troops all around the map, more it's hell to manage. You should always have the micro advantage locally against a player which put troops everywhere.
But indeed, there are possibilities, you may decide to manage a little more artillery and give a little more ground to your infantry teammate.

What you say goes both sides, why the german side would have better teamplay per se and allied side wouldn' ?
 
Gilmund said:
It is true, it's called teamwork but teamwork i know still face 4 players to 4 other players. Or you mean ugly 2vs1 but it goes both sides. If you do complain about one german player bringing his deadly assets to support his teammates, you should also complain about your teamate facing this precise german player and not doing his job to push him and prevent him to bring his deadly assets. I've experencied many games when you indeed loose against opposite teamplay cause one of your teamates is just bad, sits in his treelines doing nothing when he has his +1.
More you split your troops all around the map, more it's hell to manage. You should always have the micro advantage locally against a player which put troops everywhere.
But indeed, there are possibilities, you may decide to manage a little more artillery and give a little more ground to your infantry teammate.

What you say goes both sides, why the german side would have better teamplay per se and allied side wouldn' ?
Click to expand...
Lol, I don't complain about anything, I'm a axis player, why am I complain about axis? I just worry about the game because the balance issues.
Double team or even triple team is the key in teamplay, not "ugly 2v1". It's a good question to ask, why alies don't do samething to axis? The answer is simple, they can't, because they don't have such good combo as German. Even with same level of teamwork, alies can't do same tactics as axis. Because alies doesn't 20mm train, they don't have tyhoon AT at phase A, and no heavy bombers or heavy AA at the beginning either.
Like if axis do 20mm spam + hs129 it will be very difficult to counter, but if alies do m8 spam or any SPAA spam + any bomb planes it will be a joke.
 
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Bahahahahahahaha!

CoH2 has 12k players because it's dirt cheap on steam. You can't compare them, one game is a toddler and the other is in it's twilight years. The community patch WAS NOT some awesome thing. Last I checked the Soviet T2 and conscripts are still ass. OKW was unbalanced as all hell. And Axis have no real counter in team games other than their own stupidity. 1v1s are balanced. Cool story.

And Relic pulled the plug on future community patches.
 
Yeah that 2 vs 1 or even 3 vs 1 goes both ways, today i played a 10 vs 10 on the 10 vs 10 sword map and i was one vs two from start to finish as 3rd armored, but that meant that my team pretty much secured a 2+ as i wast just in dmg control mode and playing defensively slowly giving ground. At one point i even had 3 players against me and thats all good as long as your teammates are exploiting the other parts where the enemy is weak, Your job is to play defensive and hold the line , occasionally give ground when its clear the advantage is on enemy's side. I admit its not as fun as pushing a breakthrough but still its enjoyable to defend and win the game. But damn it someone has to do it! ;)
 
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