The game's balance was thrown into The Worm's blackhole, can we ever expect to get it back?

[Niherti]

In my opinion the job efficiency is one of the bigger problems, which is breaking the entire economy and trivialising anything. On the Beta it is now even doublestacking by increasing the effective jobs but also reducing the number of recuired jobs, resulting in everything which giving pop efficiency outscaling anything with less efficiency extremely fast. I would say that it is nearly impossible to acquire any state of balance with something like that.

 

[Drachasor]

In my opinion the job efficiency is one of the bigger problems, which is breaking the entire economy and trivialising anything. On the Beta it is now even doublestacking by increasing the effective jobs but also reducing the number of recuired jobs, resulting in everything which giving pop efficiency outscaling anything with less efficiency extremely fast. I would say that it is nearly impossible to acquire any state of balance with something like that.

Is there a lot more bonus efficiency than there was bonus output before? I hadn't played in many years before 4.x. I know this changed for organics, but is it a lot more than where machine age did? Are there universal buffs that didn't exist before?

Edit: running on way too little sleep here, but my understanding (and based on the numbers I'm familiar with) the issue is more that ascensions give too big a jump all at once, but I'm open to the idea I've missed something

 

[Niherti]

Is there a lot more bonus efficiency than there was bonus output before? I hadn't played in many years before 4.x. I know this changed for organics, but is it a lot more than where machine age did? Are there universal buffs that didn't exist before?

They added job efficiency besides the regular %-output increases during the beta for 4.x, They changed some %-output bonuses into more job efficiency but not all of them. Its a factor on top of increased productivity. Job efficiency means that a defined number of workforce (pops) is x times more efficient, increasing the output and the consumed ressources. Recently, atleast since the wilderness beta 4.0.21 they changed the efficiency by also reducing the recuired workforce by factor x.

 

[Calvax]

In my opinion the job efficiency is one of the bigger problems, which is breaking the entire economy and trivialising anything. On the Beta it is now even doublestacking by increasing the effective jobs but also reducing the number of recuired jobs, resulting in everything which giving pop efficiency outscaling anything with less efficiency extremely fast. I would say that it is nearly impossible to acquire any state of balance with something like that.

That bug was fixed in yesterday’s update. Or at least it appeared to be for my save.

 

[Drachasor]

They added job efficiency besides the regular %-output increases during the beta for 4.x, They changed some %-output bonuses into more job efficiency but not all of them. Its a factor on top of increased productivity. Job efficiency means that a defined number of workforce (pops) is x times more efficient, increasing the output and the consumed ressources. Recently, atleast since the wilderness beta 4.0.21 they changed the efficiency by also reducing the recuired workforce by factor x.

Oh yes, that. Sorry, it slipped my mind. They really should change everything to job efficiency. Having worlds get more productive with size quadraticly is bad. I really think they need to do more to not punish people for colonizing small worlds, tbh.

I am glad the reduced jobs required was a bug.

 

[yarpus]

Btw. Can anyone pinpoint actual sources of the power creep?
The only thing that comes up to my mind are Ascensions. They are stupidly overloaded with modifiers that they never needed.
But other than that?

 

[Metallichydra]

Btw. Can anyone pinpoint actual sources of the power creep?
The only thing that comes up to my mind are Ascensions. They are stupidly overloaded with modifiers that they never needed.
But other than that?

I can't remember the version numbers, so I'll use the DLC they came with for this list of some of the most noticeable sources of powercreep that I can remember:

Biogenesis
- Efficiency stacks multiplicative with output bonuses.
- Astral Siphon Building
- Job Swaps (What was previously buildings with a few special jobs now convert normal jobs into said special jobs)
- Number of researchers on planets are no longer capped by building slots
- Civilians
- Access to ludicrous amounts of otherwise rare resources (Mostly Astral Threads as it enables the astral edicts, but also to a lesser extent Minor Artifacts (Archaeotech is not very good, except for maybe nanomissiles))
- Infinite Strategic Resources
- Support Districts
- Automation Buildings
- Increased maximum Pop Growth
- Luxury Housing

Grand Archive
- Empire-wide buffs from the Grand Archive and Specimens
- Curator relics

Astral Planes
- Astral Rifts (Can give relics and other bonuses)
- Astral Actions (Psionic Fleet in particular)
- Formless

Galactic Paragons
- Destiny traits and better traits in general

Machine Age
- Exotic Fuel Consumption trait.

All
- New unique systems with powerful rewards
- New colony events with powerful rewards

I probably missed a lot of them, but as you can see it is not just ascensions, though ascension obviously is the main source of powercreep.

 

[Metallichydra]

The only power de-creep I can think of is the removal of +1 alloys from metallurgists building.

 

[yarpus]

I can't remember the version numbers, so I'll use the DLC they came with for this list of some of the most noticeable sources of powercreep that I can remember:

Biogenesis
- Efficiency stacks multiplicative with output bonuses.
- Astral Siphon Building
- Job Swaps (What was previously buildings with a few special jobs now convert normal jobs into said special jobs)
- Number of researchers on planets are no longer capped by building slots
- Civilians
- Access to ludicrous amounts of otherwise rare resources (Mostly Astral Threads as it enables the astral edicts, but also to a lesser extent Minor Artifacts (Archaeotech is not very good, except for maybe nanomissiles))
- Infinite Strategic Resources
- Support Districts
- Automation Buildings
- Increased maximum Pop Growth
- Luxury Housing

Grand Archive
- Empire-wide buffs from the Grand Archive and Specimens
- Curator relics

Astral Planes
- Astral Rifts (Can give relics and other bonuses)
- Astral Actions (Psionic Fleet in particular)
- Formless

Galactic Paragons
- Destiny traits and better traits in general

Machine Age
- Exotic Fuel Consumption trait.

All
- New unique systems with powerful rewards
- New colony events with powerful rewards

I probably missed a lot of them, but as you can see it is not just ascensions, though ascension obviously is the main source of powercreep.

It’s a very good list. No worries, I’m not a powercreep denier - just had issue with thinking about its source at times.

Ah, I have some additions:
- Edicts now scale with Empire Size penalty instead of Empire Size.
- Multiple traditions give out +50 Edict Fund.
- Charismatic leader trait is stronger than Cutthroat Politics.

 

[Psykhes]

For Biogenesis the Mauler ships (too strong for early game) and the artillery missile corvettes.

Cosmogenesis perk is also a good example of power creep.

Oh, and several perks got buffed too in 4.0, although while you could technically list it as power creep I would rather see this as balace.

And not sure if this falls under "other than ascensions", but not only were the Ascensions overbuffed, they also happen earlier due to the changes at the time of machine age. Before it was not uncommon to only select an ascension perk as 4th, 5th or even 6th perk because you had to research the tech first. Now it is basically the other way around.

 

[AllYourPopsAreBelongToUs]

Changing so many modifiers from additive (+% Output) to multiplicative (Job efficiency, Base Output, reduced Input...) while definately not having the time to balance such a fundamental shift got us a bunch of power creep too.
I think you could remove the last tier of all buildings and still end up with more total production than in 3.14

 

[yarpus]

For Biogenesis the Mauler ships (too strong for early game) and the artillery missile corvettes.

Cosmogenesis perk is also a good example of power creep.

Oh, and several perks got buffed too in 4.0, although while you could technically list it as power creep I would rather see this as balace.

And not sure if this falls under "other than ascensions", but not only were the Ascensions overbuffed, they also happen earlier due to the changes at the time of machine age. Before it was not uncommon to only select an ascension perk as 4th, 5th or even 6th perk because you had to research the tech first. Now it is basically the other way around.

True. I don’t even understand why it gives FE ships and buildings. It should be all about bailing out of the galaxy.

 

[Seridor]

For me Stellaris is more enjoyable if I leave out some DLCs, relics and astral planes for example-they mostly empower the player only. machine age and biogenesys I don't even have yet., but for what I keep hearing I'm fine without them. I like my games slow and with reduced powercreep. This is not ideal ofc, I'd prefer overall nerfing on ridiculous powers and boons, but it's not easy.. a DLC must have selling points...

 

[Thiend]

My top list of things to adjust for balance, preferably after the game actually works disregarding balance, would be the following (in no particular order):

1. Bioships are too strong, too inflexible, and their L-slots aren't stronger than M-slots (plus their S-slots have too little range).
2. For regular ships, Nanomissiles are too strong due to functional immunity to point defense. Strikecraft, disruptors and missiles are all "feast or famine" weapons that either trivialize opposition or are worthless due to their design. Neutron Launchers are extremely bad.
3. Empire size penalties are too weak to function. They will always be too weak to function or too strong to go over 100 empire size unless their penalty is exponential (200 over should have a larger penalty than 2×100 over).
3.1. This will also allow fixing alleged "tall" mechanics, by making them adjust the scaling to penalize at a lower base rate but higher exponential rate. This is applicable to all current empire size modifiers, which are universally strong for wide empires because they remove the single rubberbanding mechanic.
4. Job efficiency works as intended to replace job output and scale better, unlike job output that made any smaller bonuses basically garbage. It has been overused. It is far too abundant in general because it is now MORE abundant than output bonuses were in 3.14, so in addition to each individual one being generally stronger due to the higher number they are also multiplicative instead of additive. Most sources of job efficiency can either be dramatically reduced or entirely removed without the thing to which they are attached being weak, it will just deflate the numbers to a more sane value.

 

[Metallichydra]

3. Empire size penalties are too weak to function. They will always be too weak to function or too strong to go over 100 empire size unless their penalty is exponential (200 over should have a larger penalty than 2×100 over).

If the penalty is exponential, you will at some point be better off not growing more pops as each pop grown would require 2 or more pops to offset. As much as I want tall empires to not fall behind in technology, I don't think the solution is making extra scientists result in slower research speed.

 

[Seridor]

3. Empire size penalties are too weak to function. They will always be too weak to function or too strong to go over 100 empire size unless their penalty is exponential (200 over should have a larger penalty than 2×100 over).

Empire size penalty is generally fine as it is, could be a bit harsher. However, the various empire size reduction bonuses are too strong and many and they stack additively. Instead, maybe they should be reduced and/or apply multiplicatively, so that multiple bonuses provide diminishing returns rather than sometimes completely negating the penalty.

 

[Ikael]

As for over-buffed things that need a nerf, pronto:

- Luxury residences making all amenity-providing jobs obsolete since day one
- Monuments getting unlocked at the start of the game making early game utopian abundance runs possible
- Regular districts handing out housing like crazy and thus, making it an effectively dead, redundant mechanic
- Far too many empire-size reductions from too many sources, to the point of making the system negligible in the late game
- Special resources getting synthesized up the wazoo, and reducing the value of natural deposits into irrelevance
- Far too many resource output bonuses are scattered around the tech tree, effectively making tech the "resource of all resources". Now that I think about it, the tech tree needs some good pruning too
- Crazy ascension path bonuses, but I really would rather for those to stay overpowered rather than them getting the "let's nerf the aptitude tree" treatment

As for general balance things (not merely in need of a nerf):

- Leader traits & veteran classes (yes, I am not letting this one go)
- Advanced authorities non-choices
- Several over-specific race traits. We really need multiple effect traits, same with leader traits
- Vassal mechanics & exploits. Especially their interaction with federations is an utter mess

Yeah... lots of work to do, both buffing, nerfing, balancing & iterating.

 

[patrykc159753]

Btw. Can anyone pinpoint actual sources of the power creep?
The only thing that comes up to my mind are Ascensions. They are stupidly overloaded with modifiers that they never needed.
But other than that?

The new pop system made it so u can stack way more buffs on jobs the it used to be that there was mainy one job buffing building and the assention building. Now most jobs have more.