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patrykc159753

Corporal
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May 5, 2023
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Recently, I played 10 test games to see if I could achieve Ascension on Grand Admiral difficulty without getting attacked by the AI (0 diplomacy, 0 army production — pure Ascension rush).
I got attacked in only 3 out of 10 games. If I had used diplomacy, it probably would have been just 1 out of 10. That’s really bad — Grand Admiral is supposed to be difficult.


It’s not a big surprise people say the game isn’t hard when the gameplay currently looks like this: start, rush Ascension, build up, and then take over the galaxy while the AI can’t put up any resistance.


Because of that, a lot of people call for “fixing the AI,” and I agree it needs improvements. The way the AI develops its planets is terrible. But I don’t think that alone will fix the problem. It would be really hard for the devs to make the AI play on the level of a player, and if the meta ever changes, it could become weak again.


The better solution, in my opinion, is to force the player to build ships early on and have the economy to support them. This way, instead of ascending by 2230, the player might ascend by 2250 or even later. This would prolong the part of the game where the AI is actually a danger to the player.


The best thing that could be done, in my opinion, is to make the AI — especially aggressive types like hegemonic imperialists or slaving despots — much more likely to attack if their neighbor have way weaker fleets. This way, if you’re not building any ships, you’ll get attacked basically 100% of the time unless you get lucky and end up between “federation builders” and “eager explorers.”

(it also makes sense lore wise as if autorytarian empire would see that there are free and undefended slaves next to them they would go for it)


Grand Admiral is supposed to be hard, and this change would make it so, while having almost no impact on players who play on lower difficulties, since the AI there doesn’t build big fleets anyway.


The only real way to make the late game difficult is to delay it. But if you want my advice on how to make it harder in the late game, just give the AI a passive buff — like -30% empire size from all sources. The biggest weakness of the AI right now is that it falls behind in tech because it naturally plays wide and epire size destroys it. The AI can’t really play tall, because that would make the game even easier and with even less war. So instead, make it so it’s less punished for playing wide.
 
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I think there's a huge amount of room for improving the AI. Ideally they'd have a whole team for it, but I didn't think the even have one person who's sole job is the AI (anyone can correct me if I'm wrong). There's just not much money in it. Good AI and especially great AI just don't make a difference to most people. And there are frankly too few 4X games for AI to be a huge competitive factor. So it's an easy way to save money.

This isn't meant as any sort of disparagement to anyone that works on the AI or the dev team. They don't make these financial decisions.

But even given this, there's a lot of room to improve the AI and how it builds planets, does diplomacy, etc.

Personally, I prefer AI aggressiveness to make sense for the civilization over making the game more difficult. So this should be an option. If there was going to be more early game danger for the player, I'd prefer it to be hostile space fauna, pirates, and other rogue factions. But these should be settings that can be adjusted by the players to their preference.

Perhaps there should also be "enemy civ" settings. You have normal random civs (optional to exclude 'enemy civs' like genocidal) and then a number of enemy civ settings for number, dispersion and location relative to the player, and how advanced. Enemy civs would be ones violently hostile to the player because of civics, and perhaps even civs that play by completely different rules to expand (like space fauna with extra steps perhaps).
 
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The better solution, in my opinion, is to force the player to build ships early on and have the economy to support them
I feel like the devs have been pushing in that direction for a long time, since the "take the weapons off of your starting corvettes and don't build any more until 2230" era. I don't know if they ever articulated the intent with Power Projection, but it felt like it was aimed in that direction (encouraging early fleet for influence for outposts), and likewise both the Cuthaloids and Voidworms from Grand Archive felt aimed at making you fleet up early (at the risk of slowing your expansion or stealing your pops if you refused to do so).
 
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The problem I have with that is that it implies every empire wants to go at war whenever an opportunity appears.
Some would, sure, but war shouldn't be the default behavior.
If it's about adding an *AI agressiveness" option, sure, that's a good thing, but if it's about simply linking it to higher difficulties, I am against it, because then that means you have to chose between non-existent AI and war-crazy AI with no in between.
There are some games where I might want to roleplay as a friendly megacorp making defensive pacts with clients and hiring mercenaires instead of building fleets, but still want the AI to do something.
 
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The problem I have with that is that it implies every empire wants to go at war whenever an opportunity appears.
Some would, sure, but war shouldn't be the default behavior.
If it's about adding an *AI agressiveness" option, sure, that's a good thing, but if it's about simply linking it to higher difficulties, I am against it, because then that means you have to chose between non-existent AI and war-crazy AI with no in between.
There are some games where I might want to roleplay as a friendly megacorp making defensive pacts with clients and hiring mercenaires instead of building fleets, but still want the AI to do something.
No i very cleeary said that they should make militrarist and autorytarian ai persoanlitites more agresive 'the hegemonic imperialist' or "slaving despots " should have this feature someone like "federation builders" shouldnt. It would fix problem any way how often do u get the games where u dont get any of more agresive empires on your border. One of those on your borders is enough to forece u to make fleet.
 
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IMO reduced snowball effects/powercreep could help the game a lot. playing with increased tech AND tradition cost can make the game more interesting, but 4.0 is much more broken than 3.x.
 
No i very cleeary said that they should make militrarist and autorytarian ai persoanlitites more agresive 'the hegemonic imperialist' or "slaving despots " should have this feature someone like "federation builders" shouldnt. It would fix problem any way how often do u get the games where u dont get any of more agresive empires on your border. One of those on your borders is enough to forece u to make fleet.
I mean, you said "especially [them]" but increased aggressiveness in general so that "This way, if you’re not building any ships, you’ll get attacked basically 100% of the time unless you get lucky and end up between “federation builders” and “eager explorers.” So it comes cross as your intent is that almost all AIs will attack, with very few that won't. I think that necessarily implies some acting out of character. Maybe that's not what you intended to say, and fair enough if so, but it is what you said and that's how we've read it.
 
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There must be something you're doing that makes this happen, because if I don't have a fleet there's always someone that attacks me.
Right? I feel like 1 in 10 games I get blind first-contact warred even if I have built a fleet, never mind getting war dec'd after someone has finished first contact and gotten enough intel to determine that I don't have a fleet.
 
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There must be something you're doing that makes this happen, because if I don't have a fleet there's always someone that attacks me.
The trick is to get them to be "protective", your fleets need to be really really weak in comparison to theirs (easily done on GA) and they must not dislike you, neutral is enough and once their opinion stance flips to protective they'll love you forever.
If you take xenophile or simply improve relations immediately after first contact (maybe together with a small bribe if ethics are opposite) and keep your millitary non-threatening you'll never be at war with non-genocidals ever. It's pretty hard to get out of negative opinions, but super easy to never get there if you're a tiny bit careful.

IMO the game shouldn't force you into war because of balance reasons even if it would be fair, but:
  • The protective opinion stance should be reserved for allies, not just anyone the AI doesn't despise and is no threat.
  • At least on high aggressiveness most AIs should think about attacking their neutral-friendly neighbors if they can! Treaties are there for a reason, i don't even do them anymore because why should i? The friendly AI wouldn't ever attack me anyways.
  • Both positive & negative opinions feel too sturdy - i can almost be sure the friendly AI on 2220 won't do anything by 2400 and the mean AI on 2220 will be either dead or still hate my guts by 2400.
  • Tech & Asc. snowballing overshadows anything an early conquest might give - why should i build fleets if i won't be attacked and attacking someone is a waste of time for now?
Slowing the game down a notch (e.g. get ascensions on a more equal and slightly lower power level and get rid of a few efficiency techs & building) and make AIs less ...trustworthy would probably be enough to force players to either have a defensive fleet or paying the influence & afford on diplomacy treaties.
 
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I think there's a huge amount of room for improving the AI. Ideally they'd have a whole team for it, but I didn't think the even have one person who's sole job is the AI (anyone can correct me if I'm wrong). There's just not much money in it. Good AI and especially great AI just don't make a difference to most people. And there are frankly too few 4X games for AI to be a huge competitive factor. So it's an easy way to save money.

This isn't meant as any sort of disparagement to anyone that works on the AI or the dev team. They don't make these financial decisions.

But even given this, there's a lot of room to improve the AI and how it builds planets, does diplomacy, etc.

Personally, I prefer AI aggressiveness to make sense for the civilization over making the game more difficult. So this should be an option. If there was going to be more early game danger for the player, I'd prefer it to be hostile space fauna, pirates, and other rogue factions. But these should be settings that can be adjusted by the players to their preference.

Perhaps there should also be "enemy civ" settings. You have normal random civs (optional to exclude 'enemy civs' like genocidal) and then a number of enemy civ settings for number, dispersion and location relative to the player, and how advanced. Enemy civs would be ones violently hostile to the player because of civics, and perhaps even civs that play by completely different rules to expand (like space fauna with extra steps perhaps).
No i very cleeary said that they should make militrarist and autorytarian ai persoanlitites more agresive 'the hegemonic imperialist' or "slaving despots " should have this feature someone like "federation builders" shouldnt. It would fix problem any way how often do u get the games where u dont get any of more agresive empires on your border. One of those on your borders is enough to forece u to make fleet.
Right? I feel like 1 in 10 games I get blind first-contact warred even if I have built a fleet, never mind getting war dec'd after someone has finished first contact and gotten enough intel to determine that I don't have a fleet.
My i ask u what is your fleet power becose that what this post is about 1k fleet build form basic income of alloys is not gona cut it on grand admiral. whats more in my opinnion it shouldnt. You should set up your economy way to defend your self insted of blindly assention russing. If u whant to blindly assention rush u can just turn on scaling dificulty. This way in late game u will have "Hard Grand Admiral Ai" and early on it will have fleets that cant even beet starrbase with platforms.

Point i am trying to make is that on harderst setting the game is not hard if they whant to make game hard just improving ai is not gona cut it unless they decide to teach it the meta but then with every update they will have to change it. Thats masive drain on paradox stuff. And if they whant to make grand admirall hard is ither nerv all asentions so that the buff they give are not that masive. Or deley them. If they deley them by just making them need 4 assention perks (or nerv unity generation) it will just be unfun. Thats why i gave my diea if u force player to set up eceonomy the way that u can defend your self u deley assention. This way it mainly inpacts highest dificulties.

I can see this comunity cring every time somethink gets nerved. Thats wy my solution make it so we dont get nervs and we can still have hard games.


(i am fully for improvments of ai the way ai makes its planets is dreadfull and fact that they can get stuck boming single planet of your while u take over their entire contry. The ai needs fixes i just dont think it will make game hard with this lvl of powercreep)
 
Recently, I played 10 test games to see if I could achieve Ascension on Grand Admiral difficulty without getting attacked by the AI (0 diplomacy, 0 army production — pure Ascension rush).
I got attacked in only 3 out of 10 games. If I had used diplomacy, it probably would have been just 1 out of 10. That’s really bad — Grand Admiral is supposed to be difficult.


It’s not a big surprise people say the game isn’t hard when the gameplay currently looks like this: start, rush Ascension, build up, and then take over the galaxy while the AI can’t put up any resistance.


Because of that, a lot of people call for “fixing the AI,” and I agree it needs improvements. The way the AI develops its planets is terrible. But I don’t think that alone will fix the problem. It would be really hard for the devs to make the AI play on the level of a player, and if the meta ever changes, it could become weak again.


The better solution, in my opinion, is to force the player to build ships early on and have the economy to support them. This way, instead of ascending by 2230, the player might ascend by 2250 or even later. This would prolong the part of the game where the AI is actually a danger to the player.


The best thing that could be done, in my opinion, is to make the AI — especially aggressive types like hegemonic imperialists or slaving despots — much more likely to attack if their neighbor have way weaker fleets. This way, if you’re not building any ships, you’ll get attacked basically 100% of the time unless you get lucky and end up between “federation builders” and “eager explorers.”

(it also makes sense lore wise as if autorytarian empire would see that there are free and undefended slaves next to them they would go for it)


Grand Admiral is supposed to be hard, and this change would make it so, while having almost no impact on players who play on lower difficulties, since the AI there doesn’t build big fleets anyway.


The only real way to make the late game difficult is to delay it. But if you want my advice on how to make it harder in the late game, just give the AI a passive buff — like -30% empire size from all sources. The biggest weakness of the AI right now is that it falls behind in tech because it naturally plays wide and epire size destroys it. The AI can’t really play tall, because that would make the game even easier and with even less war. So instead, make it so it’s less punished for playing wide.
My usual style has always been to meet my first enemy, declare war, take their capital.

GA, no scaling.


It takes some learning on the build orders, but if you can expect to completely fill your fleet cap (with supremacy traditions) before 2220, and you pay attention to your ship designs, it was always possible to match the GA fleet sizes and beat them.

I agree the AI is too passive, but it's issues go beyond just a lack of aggression.

There are general AI issues, as it doesn't understand how to play the game anymore
Ship issues, it was never taught to use the ship designer
Fleet issues, it was never taught how to assign the corret ship types to the correct admiral bonuses, or how to specialize fleets in any way
Aggression issues, as you've mentioned.

And then there are the issues with the patch itself.
Ignoring all the things that don't work, or work, but are very bugged, like special types of purging, balance was thrown off the window as well, Stellaris used to be a game where synth ascension was considered "the best" because of a few % points over the other ascensions and general good habitability, the new ascensions just went nutts and multiplying different bonuses off one another, plus a bunch of flat base production bonuses can increase your economy wildly well over +200%, which is specially bad in a game where, as you mentioned, the player tends to have a lead in ascension/research priority, which tends to lead to snowballing.

I do think the entire game needs a huge balance pass, and the AI will probably need to be taught how to play the game (ideally how to use features it was never taught how to use, like ship/fleet designers too) from scratch.

Remaking the game is cool and all but it also wastes all of the effort and balance put in the game in the previous 9(?) years.
 
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There are general AI issues, as it doesn't understand how to play the game anymore
Ship issues, it was never taught to use the ship designer
Fleet issues, it was never taught how to assign the corret ship types to the correct admiral bonuses, or how to specialize fleets in any way
Aggression issues, as you've mentioned.

I do think the entire game needs a huge balance pass, and the AI will probably need to be taught how to play the game (ideally how to use features it was never taught how to use, like ship/fleet designers too) from scratch.

I do not understand the issues it has with ships. Fleet size should be the easiest to model with factors considered like the obvious of naval capacity to size of nearby fleets which all lead to what percentage of the economy should it be paying for upkeep. Design wise, outside of that dictated by its 'type' it should have the ability to create fleets of sufficient size and configuration to deal with unique special encounter type mobs before reverting them back to the 'type' design.

One major issue I remember with AI fleets is the unfortunate one where it will route fleets on long routes to avoid to attack weaker enemy positions even if that means losing defensive capability, this is easily seen with vassals and allies.

As for a huge balance pass, it always seems as if the DLC team is separate from the maintenance team because each DLC is brings along overpowered features that take too long to bring into balance with the rest of the game.

I still think the first step to fixing the AI is to simplify the economic system greatly , adjust if not removing many of the buildings that can be put on a colony, and even reducing flexibility in ship designs.
 
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My i ask u what is your fleet power becose that what this post is about 1k fleet build form basic income of alloys is not gona cut it on grand admiral. whats more in my opinnion it shouldnt. You should set up your economy way to defend your self insted of blindly assention russing
Don't get me wrong, my usual gameplan is "half of Prosperity, then Supremacy, then corvette rush with 5k or something between 2220 and 2225". But that is my gameplan because if I don't play that way and only build 1k of fleet, I expect to get punished even on difficulties much lower than GA, not because that is really the way that I want to play all the time.
 
Dont take me wrong it important to have fun in game and i am happy that u have way u like to play. Its just some people have the best fun when game is hard and with last update the GA stoped beeing hard at all. Thats why i gave my idea. Not all build have same power lvl (and its ok its important to have fun) and if i ever whanted to go try playing natural disign or somethik thats cleary weaker i would just lover dificulty.


Generaly if i make conquest build i lower it or i put on scaling dificulty and i think thats how the game should be played. We should exepcet that if we got for GA its going to be hard and we cant just conquer anyone.
 
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Yeah, medium difficulty should be, well, medium.

That means the best players should find AIs that can keep up with them, some that surpass them, some doing worse, literally being in the universe's average.

GA should be a proper unfair challenge, you pick that because you're expecting to lose, and if you don't, that should be a major achievement.

Anyone not willing to engage with the game's mechanics & difficulty should be playing below medium difficulty.
Right now GA difficulty doesn't even come close to what should be medium.
 
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