I can play a russian duchy if it's needed, since we already have one scandinavian player(Ganso as DoUppland).
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Ok, two scandinavian powers are not necessary, but it really helps to add some flavor (Denmark would have to be one of these), and in this scenario Byzantium is not very powerful, it's lost Bulgaria, not to mention that Serbia and Bulgaria are both human as well as Hungary.
Im still the Duchy of Gwynedd and Deheubarth, but still need to get my connection established before game start.
Are Serbia and Bulgaria to be human controlled too, apart from the 12 on the list above? This game is indeed growing fast... anyway, if we have enough players, sure, why not?
Varyar said:
Varyar, I still couldnt get my connextion to work earlier. For some reason it can not itendify the host, I get to the VNET and can see the games pop up, but can not join because the computer says there is no game at that location. Any suggestions?
Drachenfire said:
Sounds like the problem I was having. Are you sure that you have forwarded/opened all the necessary ports? (2300-2400, 47264, and possibly 6073)
Ok, I'll repost a revised sort of list of countries I feel are necessary and reasons why.
1 & 2: Two Russian Powers (Kiev, Novgorod, Polotsk, Pereyaslavl, but not both Kiev and Nov)
-competition for Poland, Scandinavia, Denmark, Hungary, and (eventually) Byzantium
-two powers means that it will be a struggle for the king title
-human players fighting the horde, allows for intrigue/backstabbing
-accurately reflects the constant infighting in Russia
3: Poland
-a central/eastern power which balances Germany, the Russian powers, Hungary, Scandinavia
-eastern border of Catholicism
-can vie for domination over the Russian princes
4: Germany
-a very strong power, but not as strong as the HRE would be
-helps maintain order in central europe, keeps Poland and France in check
-can assist small, weaker nations (such as Russian princes) in bringing down larger nations around them (a.k.a. Poland or Scandinavia)
5: France
-a middle power which can help new nations grow from breakaway german, italian, english, or iberian states
-interesting conflicts with England and other states over numerous regions
-can either crush or defend Burgundy early
6 & 7: Two Scandinavian powers (Denmark and Sweden or Norway)
-two are needed to balance each other out and if one is Denmark then he can expand south into Germany or other regions in the Baltic rather easily
-not incredibly necessary, however should be first priority after Russia and Italian dual powers
8 & 9: Two Italian/Balkan Powers
-competition is needed or the Italian peninsula will be dominated by one power and one power in Italy can be incredibly powerful due to its defensive position
-KoItaly and Serbia fill these roles quite nicely, though a third (such as Apulia) would be nice, though not as necessary as Russian, Iberian, or Scandinavian second powers
-help to balance Iberia, Germany (to an extent), and the eastern Balkans
10: Byzantine Empire
-establishes a ruler in the east and in this game Byzantium is considerably weakened
-can ward off over-zealous crusaders who try to take lots of land in the Holy Land (hard to defend against a Byzantine attack when your base is in Northern Europe)
-can compete for the black sea with Rus, Poland, and Hungary
-role could be filled quite well by Bulgaria
11: England
-a power which can pretty much strike anywhere and constantly keep France, Germany, Norway, and Iberia on their toes
-creates interesting conflicts ala the Hundred Years' War with France
-can establish puppet sort of states on the mainland, etc.
-crucial to EU2 colonization, etc.
12 & 13: Two Iberian Powers
-models the constant competition between Iberian kingdoms for dominance of the peninsula, one reason why the Reconquista took so long
-can ally with France, England, or Italy to bring down competing Iberian power
-allows for accurate outcome (Aragon and Castille) of two Iberian powers which can either be friendly or hostile towards each other (either ally to bring about a rapid Reconquista or backstab to gain dominance over Christian Spain, then take over the rest of the peninsula
Note, there will probably not be enough players for this many powers, so I would say these are the levels of importance:
Tier 1-England, France, Germany, Poland, 1st Russian Power, 1st Iberian Power, 1st Scandinavian Power
Tier 2-1st Italian/Balkan Power, 2nd Russian Power, Hungary
Tier 3-Byzantium/Bulgaria, 2nd Iberian Power, 2nd Scandinavian Power
Tier 4-2nd Italian/Balkan Power
1 & 2: Two Russian Powers (Kiev, Novgorod, Polotsk, Pereyaslavl, but not both Kiev and Nov)
-competition for Poland, Scandinavia, Denmark, Hungary, and (eventually) Byzantium
-two powers means that it will be a struggle for the king title
-human players fighting the horde, allows for intrigue/backstabbing
-accurately reflects the constant infighting in Russia
3: Poland
-a central/eastern power which balances Germany, the Russian powers, Hungary, Scandinavia
-eastern border of Catholicism
-can vie for domination over the Russian princes
4: Germany
-a very strong power, but not as strong as the HRE would be
-helps maintain order in central europe, keeps Poland and France in check
-can assist small, weaker nations (such as Russian princes) in bringing down larger nations around them (a.k.a. Poland or Scandinavia)
5: France
-a middle power which can help new nations grow from breakaway german, italian, english, or iberian states
-interesting conflicts with England and other states over numerous regions
-can either crush or defend Burgundy early
6 & 7: Two Scandinavian powers (Denmark and Sweden or Norway)
-two are needed to balance each other out and if one is Denmark then he can expand south into Germany or other regions in the Baltic rather easily
-not incredibly necessary, however should be first priority after Russia and Italian dual powers
8 & 9: Two Italian/Balkan Powers
-competition is needed or the Italian peninsula will be dominated by one power and one power in Italy can be incredibly powerful due to its defensive position
-KoItaly and Serbia fill these roles quite nicely, though a third (such as Apulia) would be nice, though not as necessary as Russian, Iberian, or Scandinavian second powers
-help to balance Iberia, Germany (to an extent), and the eastern Balkans
10: Byzantine Empire
-establishes a ruler in the east and in this game Byzantium is considerably weakened
-can ward off over-zealous crusaders who try to take lots of land in the Holy Land (hard to defend against a Byzantine attack when your base is in Northern Europe)
-can compete for the black sea with Rus, Poland, and Hungary
-role could be filled quite well by Bulgaria
11: England
-a power which can pretty much strike anywhere and constantly keep France, Germany, Norway, and Iberia on their toes
-creates interesting conflicts ala the Hundred Years' War with France
-can establish puppet sort of states on the mainland, etc.
-crucial to EU2 colonization, etc.
12 & 13: Two Iberian Powers
-models the constant competition between Iberian kingdoms for dominance of the peninsula, one reason why the Reconquista took so long
-can ally with France, England, or Italy to bring down competing Iberian power
-allows for accurate outcome (Aragon and Castille) of two Iberian powers which can either be friendly or hostile towards each other (either ally to bring about a rapid Reconquista or backstab to gain dominance over Christian Spain, then take over the rest of the peninsula
Note, there will probably not be enough players for this many powers, so I would say these are the levels of importance:
Tier 1-England, France, Germany, Poland, 1st Russian Power, 1st Iberian Power, 1st Scandinavian Power
Tier 2-1st Italian/Balkan Power, 2nd Russian Power, Hungary
Tier 3-Byzantium/Bulgaria, 2nd Iberian Power, 2nd Scandinavian Power
Tier 4-2nd Italian/Balkan Power
Sorry, the game was postponed.
I would have given you a message if only you were online on ICQ.
I think we should be at full or almost full count at least for the first session, to get things sorted and realms running.
I would even offer a better reward:
If one writes a reasonable AAR, he gets a mark about each session's update.
Mark ranges from 0 to 10 which divided by 10 is the negative BB he gets for that session.
So if you write a glorious introduction on first session, you get -1BB (which is +0.4 vassal loyalty ingame) next one.
If you have less BB than your AAR-reward, the reward accumulates to the next session.
You are Hungary.
Tier 1-
England, -> Wales(Drachenfire)
France, -> BurningEGO
Germany, -> Lurken
Poland, -> Sterkarm
1st Russian Power, -> ?(Goose)
1st Iberian Power, -> ?(bT probably, but Im sick of spaniards already, I can play them with closed eyes)
1st Scandinavian Power -> Sweden(Ganso) - I really hope he takes Sweden from start to be competitive right away.
Tier 2-
1st Italian/Balkan Power, -> Italy(CSK)
2nd Russian Power, -> ?(Varyar)
Hungary -> Hey Steve
Tier 3-
Byzantium/Bulgaria, - Bulgaria(Riddermark)
2nd Iberian Power, - ?
2nd Scandinavian Power - ?(Varyar)
Tier 4-
2nd Italian/Balkan Power - Serbia(Tzare)
Potentially most problematic spots are bolded.
Sterkarm said:
Looks reasonable, but I'd say that a 2nd Scandinavian power would be least important considering the fairly harsh rules that should apply concerning pagans. Also, I don't see Bohemia in there, which is a power I would certainly want to have represented, with its very strategic position and claims on Poland. Definitely a top Tier 3 representative.
BTW, regarding my own position, I think it's easiest to say that I will simply take the most important vacant spot once the game begins. I don't really mind wherever I end up. Russia, Denmark, Bohemia, Byzantium... it's all good
Refined anti-bash rule:
- one is only allowed to bash European heathens during (any) crusade. At the moment crusades ebb out you immediately send WP offer. If you are unable to send WP at that moment because of other pending peace, you do it when/if the pending offer is turned down. If the WP is turned down, player must announce it (and I will only believe it if it's realistic, not like Jatviags turning down Polish WP) and then it's fair game for all until the target realm is dead.
And I don't care if you have 1% siege left. You didn't make it, so wait for next crusade.
- one is allowed to bash African and Middle east heathens if there's a crusade and target province is owned by heathen you want to bash (means you may not attack Zirids if Fatimids hold Jerusalem and crusade is for Jerusalem).
- one is allowed to bash African and Middle east heathens during an ongoing crusade, if any territory of his primary title is owned by a heathen (Byzantine reconquista rule and KoJ rule).
- it is fully legal to heed an alliance call and exterminate the offending heathen, even if otherwise it would go against the rules above.
Opinions?
Another rule proposal:
- once crusades era has ended and there's no mongols (meaning ILKH and GOLD have been defeated totally) either, if one holds a king title, which, in turn, has a former crusade target in it, the holder must release that title, unless it's his primary title.
Varyar - maybe you're interested in Iberia?
Im suggessting this because I'd like to take Russian principality as I could probably roleplay it more effectively than most of us, due to good knowledge in russian history, tradition and mentality (and because Im sick of Iberia! )..
- one is only allowed to bash European heathens during (any) crusade. At the moment crusades ebb out you immediately send WP offer. If you are unable to send WP at that moment because of other pending peace, you do it when/if the pending offer is turned down. If the WP is turned down, player must announce it (and I will only believe it if it's realistic, not like Jatviags turning down Polish WP) and then it's fair game for all until the target realm is dead.
And I don't care if you have 1% siege left. You didn't make it, so wait for next crusade.
- one is allowed to bash African and Middle east heathens if there's a crusade and target province is owned by heathen you want to bash (means you may not attack Zirids if Fatimids hold Jerusalem and crusade is for Jerusalem).
- one is allowed to bash African and Middle east heathens during an ongoing crusade, if any territory of his primary title is owned by a heathen (Byzantine reconquista rule and KoJ rule).
- it is fully legal to heed an alliance call and exterminate the offending heathen, even if otherwise it would go against the rules above.
Opinions?
Another rule proposal:
- once crusades era has ended and there's no mongols (meaning ILKH and GOLD have been defeated totally) either, if one holds a king title, which, in turn, has a former crusade target in it, the holder must release that title, unless it's his primary title.
Varyar - maybe you're interested in Iberia?
Im suggessting this because I'd like to take Russian principality as I could probably roleplay it more effectively than most of us, due to good knowledge in russian history, tradition and mentality (and because Im sick of Iberia!
)..With all the claims Denmark has against England, I would think this would be a prime country to play. I know Gwynedd will need an ally against London.
Also, I could see a Scotland and an Irish duchy for anyone interested in those realms. Im not too worried with an over crowded British Isles, we could always expand with our Crusades.
Also, I could see a Scotland and an Irish duchy for anyone interested in those realms. Im not too worried with an over crowded British Isles, we could always expand with our Crusades.
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binTravkin said:
Sounds good. I'm a little worried though that the pagans will be exterminated at the end of the first crusade... I wouldn't mind something a little harsher for the first 40 years or so.
Also, what about Iberia? I'd find it silly if the Iberian player(s) would be restricted from performing a Reconquista outside of crusades. Same thing with Germany - Mecklemburg and Poland - Pommerania.
Varyar - maybe you're interested in Iberia?
Im suggessting this because I'd like to take Russian principality as I could probably roleplay it more effectively than most of us, due to good knowledge in russian history, tradition and mentality (and because Im sick of Iberia!
Like I said, any nation is fine, really. Spain also has the added bonus of glorious EU2 prospects
BTW, about the AAR thing: will we each be writing individual AAR's or will there be some kind of collective work? I was thinking I'd try that aspect too... especially when there are bonuses to be had
See, Varyar, as I see it:
Poland and Germany - no questions whatsoever - once the first crusade starts it will be a year at best and the whole baltic pagans will be gone, same for Sweden and Lappland/Finnland.
Iberia is an area of weak christian realms and strong muslim ones which basically means that when muslims recharge at full they are sure to attack some christian.
I can almost bet that Aragon will be dowed by Zaragoza early on, pulling all the allies along.
If you happen to get allied with some smaller christian nation in Iberia, be sure you'll have a choice to heed an alliance call very early.
In the same fashion, Iberian powers like Leon and Castile can expect Toledo dow in first 5 years, which implies that if you want to survive as Iberian power you must execute your Jimenez claims (the 3 spanish brothers have claims on each other, so have the cousins in Navarra and Aragon) ASAP, so muslims don't get more troops than you at any moment.
Historically reconquista was not a linear process of the whole Iberia conquered in a few decades as it is when there are no limits on human player.
It was more like a series of small crusades each taking some chunk from muslims.
I think the rule will make it quite historical in regards to Iberia.
But one who takes it should be sure to train himself a few times on scenario, playing early years up to say 1100.
My expierence with collective AARs is very bad I must admit.
Therefore, whomever wants to make and AAR, should give me a link once he has created a thread in the appropriate forum.
Also, remember to note in your AAR that it is an MP AAR of this game, just so people know.
I really didn't understand this rule, sorry
You mean that if i am, for example, King of France and King of Jerusalem, I will have to release my title of King of Jerusalem? Isn't that a bit unfair? It doesn't even make sense about going on a crusade if we will loose the titles we won from it.
Anyway guys, I am having massive problems with my OS, if i don't get it working till the first session, then someone will have to take up France.
Yes, that means it.
That was as it historically happened and that was how it should happen knowing the command constraints of that time (one couldn't call Israel and ask to report, an ordnance had to travel for a month at least and yet it was sometimes unknown did it ever reached the point, therefore during the short periods a West European power held any territory in Middle East, it was practically independent.
However, you must note that only adresses the most powerful and succesful players, as well as fact that one would only need to release following kingdoms:
- Jerusalem (if crusade ever gets called to it)
- Egypt (if crusade to Alexandria ever gets called)
- Aleppo (if crusade to Antioch ever gets called)
- Tunisia (if crusade to Tunis ever gets called)
- Byzantium (if crusade to Byzantion ever gets called)
- Papal States (if crusade to Rome ever gets called)
- Naples (if crusade to Sicily ever gets called)
- Castile (if crusade to any of Castile provinces ever gets called)
- Leon (if crusade to any of Leon provinces ever gets called)
- Portugal (if crusade to Lisboa ever gets called)
- Aragon (if crusade to Valencia ever gets called)
As far as I see it only the first 5 could ever happen if our Iberian and Italian players are any good.
In regards to Egypt/Jerusalem - if a player holds both, he should release Jerusalem (as that is more historical)
What they will do is help restore Byzantium, if its dead, make a couple of Middle East christian realms (Aleppo and Jerusalem) and an African power - Tunisia.
I would also would like to rephrase rules a little:
Where Asia and Europa are meant as separate continents.
Which means that for Tunis and Egypt all Africa is fair game during crusades, similarly Asia for Aleppo and Jerusalem.
Georgia and Rus are special cases - they're both in Asia and Europe..
Also, the area to the east of line formed by caspian sea and that river (forgot the name, but will clear on it) is considered Asia.
How are those rules to you, guys, then?
Huh, it's pretty hard to keep track of those rules I now made, therefore I'll make a map later so everyone is clear about where he can heathen bash.
Woha, i forgot to mention one thing... Lets suppose i own all the provinces required to claim the title "King of Jerusalem"... But what if i don't create that title, will i still have to create it and release it after there are no pagans left? Sorry if i am making a big confusion
Actually the rule about creating 'when there are no pagans left' should be changed I think, to make those kingdoms frontiers of christian expansion into pagan lands.
Therefore it should probably be expressed as:
And another, quite obvious, rule
Therefore it should probably be expressed as:
If you don't release, I will do it after the end of the session and penalize you by 3 BB for that..
And another, quite obvious, rule
binTravkin said:
The problem is that if the iberian player is restricted like that, I fear that Iberia will become a smörgåsbord, where France, Italy, Germany and possibly England viciously grab whatever they can hold at leisure. Wouldn't be very fun long-term.
And I've already tried out one game as Leon. Got viciously slaughtered when Castille, Galicia and Badajoz gangbanged me
Served me right for conquering Toledo, but still... that damn Sancho was relentless, he kept fighting for at least a decade to gain the throne of Leon. Tried to assassinate him but failed every time.binTravkin said:
I understand the logic, but if this rule will be in the game, why would I want to crusade? It'll cost a ton of money and give me absolutely nothing. Or rather, I'd crusade but never entirely wipe out my enemy and instead focus on gathering 'goodie' provinces for my own realm.
There must be a bonus associated with creating crusader kingdoms, be it victory points or piety/prestige boost or BB reduction, for this to work IMHO.