The invasion of Charlemagne and the flight of the Slavs from the Danube region

[Nykyus]

The collapse of the Avar Kaganate.
Tale of Bygone Years.
The first preserved written monument of the Slavs:
In the destruction of the pillar and in the division of the peoples, the sons of Shem took the eastern countries, and the sons of Ham — the southern countries; and the Japhetes took the west and the northern countries. From the same 70 and 2 languages there also descended the Slavic people, from the Japheth tribe - the so-called Noriki, which are the Slavs.

After a long time, the Slavs sat down on the Danube, where the land is now Hungarian and Bulgarian. From those Slavs, the Slavs dispersed on the ground and were called by their names from the places they sat down on. So some came and sat on the river by the name of Morava and were called Morava, while others called themselves Czechs. And here are the same Slavs: white Croats, and Serbs, and Khorutane. When the Volokhs attacked the Slavs of the Danube, and settled among them, and oppressed them, these Slavs came and sat on the Vistula and were called Lyakhs, and the Poles went from those Lyakhs, others were Lyutichi, others were Mazovshans, others were Pomorians.

Similarly, these Slavs came and sat on the Dnieper and called themselves glades, and others - Drevlyans, because they sat in the forests, while others sat between Pripyat and Dvina and called themselves Dregovichi, others sat on the Dvina and called themselves Polotsk, along the river that flows into Dvina , called Polota, from her and called Polochans. The same Slavs who sat down near the lake of Ilmen were called by their name - the Slavs, and built a city, and called it Novgorod. And the others sat down along the Desna, along the Diet, and along Sula, and called themselves Northerners. And so did the Slavic people, and by its name and the letter was called Slavic

 

[viola]

I'm pretty sure that by the times of Charlemagne the Slavic migration was already in full swing.
I think their geographical origin is also theorized to be somewhere between Eastern Poland and Western Ukraine.

What's the point of this thread anyway?

 

[Nykyus]

I'm pretty sure that by the times of Charlemagne the Slavic migration was already in full swing.
I think their geographical origin is also theorized to be somewhere between Eastern Poland and Western Ukraine.

What's the point of this thread anyway?

Is it possible to make the culture of the Avar Kaganate Slavic? And to extend the power of the kagan towards the Baltic. Because the ancestral home of the Slavs is an Avar kaganat.

 

[Nykyus]

Tsar of Epirus can be made a vassal not of Byzantium, but of the Avar Kaganate

 

[viola]

Is it possible to make the culture of the Avar Kaganate Slavic? And to extend the power of the kagan towards the Baltic. Because the ancestral home of the Slavs is an Avar kaganat.

Well, no. The Avars were a nomadic people that came from the steppes and had nothing to do with the Slavs until both of them migrated to the Carpathian basin, and the Slavic homeland was not within the borders of the Avar Khaganate.

 

[aono]

Is it possible to make the culture of the Avar Kaganate Slavic?

Yes, it's possible, but why?

Because the ancestral home of the Slavs is an Avar kaganat.

Hell no. Ancestral home of the Slavs is, presumely, lands, which avars conquered. There is a difference.
It's hard to say who Avars were (as far as I know the most influential hypothesis are middle-asian turks or mongols), but they definitly weren't slavs.

Tsar of Epirus can be made a vassal not of Byzantium, but of the Avar Kaganate

Agan, why? As far I know Avars never hadn't this territories.

 

[WJS]

Is it possible to make the culture of the Avar Kaganate Slavic? And to extend the power of the kagan towards the Baltic. Because the ancestral home of the Slavs is an Avar kaganat.

What you'd need to do is conquer the lands you want as the Avar Khagan, settle, then change your culture to a Slavic flavor of your choosing, and work on flipping province cultures from there. I don't believe that as a nomad, you're able to switch cultures to a non-horde culture, but I may be wrong. It would mean that you need other members of your dynasty to change culture with you, otherwise you'll have a giant target on your back, in any case.

 

[Orphalesion]

the sons of Shem took the eastern countries, and the sons of Ham — the southern countries; and the Japhetes took the west and the northern countries.

Okay, so you begin this with some mythological characters....this doesn't exactly put a good.trustworthy light on the rest of that...tale(?)

 

[Nykyus]

Well, no. The Avars were a nomadic people that came from the steppes and had nothing to do with the Slavs until both of them migrated to the Carpathian basin, and the Slavic homeland was not within the borders of the Avar Khaganate.

Before the arrival of the Avars in Dacia, Dacians, Heruli, Rugi, Bastarna, Langobards, Roxolans, and Yazygs lived. They all switched to the Slavic language.
In addition, Nestor writes that the ancestral home of the Slavs is the Danube region. He certainly knew how things were going. The storytellers were still alive. There were many written sources, which then burned down.
Numerous Slavic incursions into the mighty Byzantium originated from this region.
Avars were few, consisted exclusively of men. The women were killed by the Turks of the First Kaganate. They married locals. In addition, purebred Avars died in battles with the Byzantines. For example, from the blows of a talented commander Prisk. The power was captured by Slavic bastards

 

[Zsrai]

Someone's nationalism is shining through.

By the way, if you want to play an early Slav from "the homeland" or whatever, try the Croats in between the Russians and the Avars. That's your "White Croatia", which is a theorized homeland pre-Migration IIRC.

 

[Grim Deadman]

Indeed, also the devs absolutely must add the ancient Slavo-Arian empire that sprawled in Northern Europe at the time, the dominant power of the region ever since the end of the Finno-Korean hyperspace war!

On a serious note, while OP does have a point about the demographic composition of the khaganate, which is based on what the byzantines themselves wrote (especially regarding the sieges of Constantinople), I'm pretty sure the nobility was solidly Avar and nomadic. There is no way of representing what OP asks for without implementing a V2 type pop system.

 

[Husein]

The Balkan slavs originated from Moldova-Romania Carpathia region, confirmed by DNA testing. Before that they came from Kiev area. Slavs controling Germany or something is insane. The Avar Khagans recruited and demanded levies from the Balkan slavs, the Carpathian ones were not that numerous at that point due to frequent devastations.

 

[Nykyus]

The Balkan slavs originated from Moldova-Romania Carpathia region, confirmed by DNA testing. Before that they came from Kiev area. Slavs controling Germany or something is insane. The Avar Khagans recruited and demanded levies from the Balkan slavs, the Carpathian ones were not that numerous at that point due to frequent devastations.

If you are a king, then of course you will collect tax from your subjects. It is everywhere like that.
Alone, these scattered detachments could not defeat the mighty Byzantium. They won because they were sent by the kagan. If they did wrong actions, then kagan scolded them

 

[Nykyus]

Indeed, also the devs absolutely must add the ancient Slavo-Arian empire that sprawled in Northern Europe at the time, the dominant power of the region ever since the end of the Finno-Korean hyperspace war!

On a serious note, while OP does have a point about the demographic composition of the khaganate, which is based on what the byzantines themselves wrote (especially regarding the sieges of Constantinople), I'm pretty sure the nobility was solidly Avar and nomadic. There is no way of representing what OP asks for without implementing a V2 type pop system.

Not really an Empire. From the Avars broke off first the state of Samo. Then the Bulgarians separated. And the Avar rebels separated at least four times and were called Bulgarians each time.

 

[Husein]

If you are a king, then of course you will collect tax from your subjects. It is everywhere like that.
Alone, these scattered detachments could not defeat the mighty Byzantium. They won because they were sent by the kagan. If they did wrong actions, then kagan scolded them

No one said they were sent scattered. I just said that under Avars slavs were servants and serving class.

 

[aono]

In addition, Nestor writes that the ancestral home of the Slavs is the Danube region. He certainly knew how things were going. The storytellers were still alive. There were many written sources, which then burned down.

Nestor isn't absolutely reliable. Let's start we know about Tale of Bygone Years from later copies, put into other chronicles ("spiski"), and actually authenity of it as a historical document isn't proved.
It's good literature, surely; but I would not study Irish history through Lebor Gabála Érenn, or british history through Historia Regum Britanniae.

 

[Nykyus]

Nestor isn't absolutely reliable. Let's start we know about Tale of Bygone Years from later copies, put into other chronicles ("spiski"), and actually authenity of it as a historical document isn't proved.
It's good literature, surely; but I would not study Irish history through Lebor Gabála Érenn, or british history through Historia Regum Britanniae.

Don't you think that Nestor had an extensive library of Slavs, Ostrogoths, and Byzantines as sources?
Gothic historian Jordan wrote about the vast fields of knowledge from which he wove a wreath

 

[aono]

Don't you think that Nestor had an extensive library of Slavs, Ostrogoths, and Byzantines as sources?

I don't know, and nobody know. We don't know a lot about him, but, truth to be said, I'm highly doubt Nestor had an extensive library about 8th-9th century in 11th century Kiev. Getica, at least, was written in Constantinopole.

Gothic historian Jordan wrote about the vast fields of knowledge from which he wove a wreath

Yes, and that's disadvantage.
Keep in mind that chronicles of that time never were, let's say, scientifically accurate; and people that days didn't had our perspective. A lot of info were put from legends, tales, claims, without any proof-checking and often without links. They weren't ethnographs; they were, essentially, compillators.
For example, there were tribe group of Venedi, named in Roman sources, like Plutarch. How, you think, could Jordan say if some tribes in same territory are the same venedi or not, if they called (and he mentions it) differently? He looks into Plutarch and say: aha, that's the places venedi live, so it's venedi, even if they're called another names this days. He just didn't know he live in Migration Period.

But that's academical. Question is, what are you asking for, basing yourself on Nestor? Let me repeat myself.

Is it possible to make the culture of the Avar Kaganate Slavic?

No source in Nestor or Getica, or, actually, any source I know claims Avars were slavs (it would be very strange if Getica proclaim it!). They were (presumably) ethnically diverse group who had turkic and mongolic roots. No way avar nobility and rulers were slavic.
Still, if you're saying that lands of Avar Kahanate should include some western or southern slavic tribes, being protectorates - well, it's possibly would be right approach. Don't place them in Epirus, though. And surely, it's not a valid reason to push Kagan power to the north or west - AFAICT their current placement is correct(-ish). Slavs definitely lived there, and were subjuated by Avars.

In addition, Nestor writes that the ancestral home of the Slavs is the Danube region. He certainly knew how things were going.

No. Why? He lived thousand years (at least) later. Archeology and linguistic, though, tells that "ancestral home" was somewhere on Dniepr, around modern Kiev.
But why it's matter here?

 

[Nykyus]

I am very glad to hear the arguments. And not just, neither can it be, because it cannot be.

I don't know, and nobody know. We don't know a lot about him, but, truth to be said, I'm highly doubt Nestor had an extensive library about 8th-9th century in 11th century Kiev. Getica, at least, was written in Constantinopole.

Kiev-Pechersk Lavra differed a huge library, from which there were miserable pages

Yes, and that's disadvantage.
Keep in mind that chronicles of that time never were, let's say, scientifically accurate; and people that days didn't had our perspective. A lot of info were put from legends, tales, claims, without any proof-checking and often without links. They weren't ethnographs; they were, essentially, compillators.
For example, there were tribe group of Venedi, named in Roman sources, like Plutarch. How, you think, could Jordan say if some tribes in same territory are the same venedi or not, if they called (and he mentions it) differently? He looks into Plutarch and say: aha, that's the places venedi live, so it's venedi, even if they're called another names this days. He just didn't know he live in Migration Period.

But I would advise not to downplay the importance of historical primary sources. All the same, they lived when the memory was fresh. Like Gomer

But that's academical. Question is, what are you asking for, basing yourself on Nestor? Let me repeat myself.


No source in Nestor or Getica, or, actually, any source I know claims Avars were slavs (it would be very strange if Getica proclaim it!). They were (presumably) ethnically diverse group who had turkic and mongolic roots. No way avar nobility and rulers were slavic.
Still, if you're saying that lands of Avar Kahanate should include some western or southern slavic tribes, being protectorates - well, it's possibly would be right approach. Don't place them in Epirus, though. And surely, it's not a valid reason to push Kagan power to the north or west - AFAICT their current placement is correct(-ish). Slavs definitely lived there, and were subjuated by Avars.


No. Why? He lived thousand years (at least) later. Archeology and linguistic, though, tells that "ancestral home" was somewhere on Dniepr, around modern Kiev.
But why it's matter here?

Well, not the Slavs, and the Slavic-speaking aristocracy. The Slavs themselves did not know how to fight, if by Slavs we mean the Ants and Sсlavins.

"They're rude people who don't dare show up outside the woods and tree-protected places. They didn't even know that such weapons, with the exception of two or three lanmadaw, that is, copies for throwing.

John of Ephesus, Bishop and writer,
"Church history", VI century ad."

 

[aono]

Kiev-Pechersk Lavra differed a huge library, from which there were miserable pages

When exactly? Kiev-Pechersk Lavra had a library indeed, the best library in slavic lands; but let's admit it wasn't the best library in Europe.

But I would advise not to downplay the importance of historical primary sources. All the same, they lived when the memory was fresh. Like Gomer

What do you mean "fresh"? Nestor worked in 12th century. Events we speak about happened in 8th century. Slavic ethnos formed... oh take your pick between "in a middle of the first millenium BC" to "somewhere in 7th century". Keep in mind Nestor hadn't archeological, linguistical, genetic and historical sources.
Same thing about Homer, yes. Illiad was written... somewhere in 9-8 century BC. And Troyan War happened (if it happened) three or four centuries before. Memory definitly wasn't "fresh", as it was oral culture.

"They're rude people who don't dare show up outside the woods and tree-protected places. They didn't even know that such weapons, with the exception of two or three lanmadaw, that is, copies for throwing.

First of all, I believe on English work you're saying about called "Ecclesiastical History".
Second, let's say John of Ephesus isn't objective here.
Whole paragraph you're citing on English (I believe you're translating from Russian?):
"That same year, being the third after the death of king Justin, was famous also for the invasion of an accursed people, called Slavonians, who overran the whole of Greece, and the country of the Thessalonians, and all Thrace, and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their own without fear. And four years have now elapsed, and still, because the king is engaged in the war with the Persians, and has sent all his forces to the East, they live at their ease in the land, and dwell in it, and spread themselves far and wide as far as God permits them, and ravage and burn and take captive. And to such an extent do they carry their ravages, that they have even ridden up to the outer wall of the city, and driven away all the king's herds of horses, many thousands in number, and whatever else they could find. And even to this day, being the year 895 (A. D. 584), they still encamp and dwell there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn: and they have grown rich in gold and silver, and herds of horses, and arms, and have learnt to fight better than the Romans, though at first they were but rude savages, who did not venture to shew themselves outside the woods and the coverts of the trees; and as for arms, they did not even know what they were, with the exception of two or three javelins or darts."
So, no. Slavonians could fight - at least they learned really fast. They wasn't fans of fighting against roman regular army, but clearly were able to attack and capture land, and defend it later.
Also it's two centuries before the date we're speaking about.