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I completely agree that national sentiments aren't necessarily built on an ethnic basis, if by ethnic you mean genetic.
That's the very question: how would we constitute ethnic? What SHOULD we mean by "ethnics"? What is common between Serbs of Serbia, Wends of Pomerania, Polish and Kiev Russians, beyond language, genetic bonds and history of antropogenesis - and it's commonly believed that all of them are Slavs. They're very different NATIONS, but the same ETHNOS.
Opposing way, when we have different ETHNOSES constituted the same nations, would be Roman Empire after Caesar, for example. To belong to nation you needed to achieve citizenship - and when you did, you was Roman. Take, as example, Acts of the Apostles, 22 - we have a dialog of two Romans, one of them being Jew, and it's hard to say who is the second beyond of him being not from Rome.

I agree that religion was probably a big part of it but, to be clear, the church at that time was clearly an instrument of imperialism so it's not apolitical either even on that count.
Not exactly. Church were bigger then imperialism, actually. It was... civilization marker, I believe. If you're christian, you belong to the christian world, not some kind of pagan in the middle of nothing.
It was totally possible that two different, rival Christian nations prozeliting Christianity in the same territory, fighting each other doing so. Actually, as an example you can use Great Slav Rising - HRE and Poland both converted Wends, fighting each other.
In 10th century in Europe it wasn't ethnos that matters more for national sentiments, but soverenship ("I'm a subject of the Emperor!"/"I'm Polish subject!"), and, of course, religion.

My argument was that national sentiment plays too big a role in history to leave out, but I based it on self-identification.
Yes, of course, if we would write a history textbook here, or discuss, for example, history of Kievan Rus, it would be not wise. But we're discussing history of slavs, which should include every slavic nation - by definition. And panslavic sentiments never played a big role in history until XVIII century.
 
Middle Volga Balts

The reconstruction of the Imenkovo culture of the 7th century is the virtual interactive museum “Tetyushi VII century".

One of the main supporters of the Slavic identity of the Imenkovo culture was the well-known Soviet and Russian archaeologist V.V. Sedov. The report, which he read at the symposium “The problem of Imenkov culture” (1993), had a polemical title - “Is the population of Imenkovo culture Balts or Slavs?”. In fact, he was devoted to a decisive refutation of the linguistic evidence on which the Tatar archaeologist A. Kh. Khalikov based his Baltic hypothesis. Having identified the Baltic etymology of a number of Volga toponyms as controversial, and the Baltic borrowings in local languages as non-simultaneous, Sedov, although he does not deny Khalikov’s hypothesis of the right to exist, categorically declares the Imenian Slavs. Note that the Tatar scientist was primarily an archaeologist, and his linguistic arguments could only be given at the amateur level. However, later, when professional linguists (V.V. Napolskikh, V.V. Prikhodko) took up the same problem, but on the other material, the results obtained by them confirmed the Baltic identity of the Imenkovo culture.

In confirmation of the Imenkovtsev Slavic linguistics, V.V. Sedov gives the old hypothesis of A. P. Smirnov about the origin of Volyntsevsk culture in the Dnieper region on the basis of the Ivinko antiquities of the Middle Volga region. Since Volyntsevsk culture - ancestor in relation to the antiquities of northerners, Radimichi and Vyatichi - is confidently attributed as Slavic, then Imenkovskaya culture, according to Sedov, is also Slavic. This hypothesis is highly vulnerable, since it is justified by a certain similarity of some forms of stucco ware with a high vertically placed whisk, while other significant aspects of material culture and, especially, funeral rituals reveal significant discrepancies.

And although the assertion about the resettlement of Imenkovts from the Middle Volga to the Dnieper region is still found in literature, today it is of purely historiographic interest. Ukrainian archaeologist A.V. Komar concludes: “There are no real grounds for revising the basic concept of the origin of Volyntsev culture based on Kolochin and Penkovo cultures and they are unlikely to appear in the future. The earliest Volyntsev monuments, known mainly in the Desna basin (Strelitsa, Shestovitsa, Tselikov Bugor, Khitsy), bear expressive Kolochin features. But at the same time they demonstrate undoubtedly a new, synthesized character of the culture that was formed, as E. A. Goryunov suggested, in the zone of the recent deep invasion of nomads into the forest steppe Schemes of Europe RUTHENICA. - 2005. - №4 - С.123).

Migration of carriers of the Baltic traditions from the Upper Oka basin to the Middle Volga region in the middle of the 4th century AD e. (numbers on the map indicate: 1 - the Moschinsk culture; 2 - the culture of the Ryazan-Oka burial grounds; 3 - the ancient Mordovian culture; 4 - the Imenkovo culture).

Quote:

“In group 4 of burials, identified mainly at the Tezikovskoye burial ground, two ethnocultural traditions coexist, most clearly traced in the ceramic complex, are observed. The first, autochthonous one, continues the local traditions in general, but at a new level. This is reflected in the change of the biconical to bipyramidal weights of the temporal suspensions, the former forms that have been encountered can be regarded as survivals, on the basis of which new features appear. Another tradition demonstrates the penetration of new populations into the upper Primokshania space, bringing characteristic black-glazed ceramics in the form of cylindro-conical and biconical bowls, ribbed bowls, as well as earthen wedge-shaped axes, openwork cast jewelery, products with enamel, original plate buckles, etc. A similar cultural and chronological horizon can be traced in the culture of the Ryazan-Oka burial grounds, where it is associated by researchers with infiltration in the 4th-5th centuries. in the Finnish environment of the groups of Late Dyakov and Motti origins.

Thus, around the middle of the IV. In the ancient Mordovian environment, Primokshanya was joined by a group of the population, the core of which was formed by the carriers of the Western (Eastern-Balt) tradition. Judging by the presence of some elements in the culture, they either lived for a certain time in the Ryazan-Oka environment and adopted some customs and types of jewelry, or involved some of its bearers in the movement up along Moksha. Apparently, this movement was accompanied by a short-term, but rather powerful impulse, since with their arrival the Old Mordovian cemeteries of the Upper Douce (Seliksensky, Shemysheysky, Ust-Uzinsky, etc.), which functioned actively in the 3rd - first half of the 4th centuries, ceased to be used. This was most likely due to some territorial redistribution of the ancient Mordovian population within the ecumene under consideration. In the future, the traditions of the alien population appear as a matter of fact only in the ceramic complex of the 5th – 7th centuries. and associated with the spread of pottery forms. ”

Grishakov V.V. Conditions and factors for the formation of local traditions in the ancient Mordovian culture // Archeology of Eastern European forest-steppe: Collection of materials of the II International Scientific Conference dedicated to the 100th anniversary of M.R. Polessky. Issue 2. T. II. - Penza: Penza State Museum of Local Lore, 2008. - p. 101-102.
aVMm5Hn22Eg.jpg

To date, several hypotheses have been put forward about the self-name of Imenkovo culture carriers. V. Sedov, in his early works, proposed the option “Severians”, and later - “Rogs” / “Ruses”, believing that the self-name “Imenkovo” should coincide with the ethnonym of Volyntsev culture, which he derived from Imenkovo culture and associated with "Russian Kaganat". E. S. Galkina, based on her own geographical localization of the peoples mentioned in the letter of the Khazar King Joseph, suggested the ethnonym Slovens as the self-name of the Imenkovs.

As you can see, the mentioned hypotheses are based on the Slavic identity of the Imenkovo culture, their detailed analysis was given in a recent article by M. I. Zhikh (Zhikh 2015). An exception is the attempt by I. V. Zinkovsky (Zinkovsky 2011) to link the mysterious “Rogs” (Rogas Tadsans) of Jordan with carriers of Lbishche-type monuments that were once considered the early stage of Imenkovo culture. In the opinion of the researcher, the Lishchensk were Germans.

The hypothesis about the Balt (Paraslavic) character of the language of the Imenkovo tribes, advanced by the Finno-Ugrian scholar V. V. Napolskikh, is based on the presence of Late Balticism in the Permian languages (including those that do not have Slavic correspondences). In addition to the Finno-Permyan “Imenkovts” contacted with the Ugric peoples. In particular, with carriers of Kushnarenkovsk culture. The excavations of the Tetyushi II settlement in Tatarstan revealed the peaceful nature of the coexistence of nomads with Imenkov farmers (Rudenko 2013). It would be expected to assume the presence of Baltic borrowings of this period in the Ugric languages. One of them allows us to put forward a new hypothesis about the self-name of the Imenkov population.

The ethnonym tót, which in Hungarian is used as an outdated name for Slovaks, was once the designation of the Slavs in general. As researcher Andrash Zoltan has shown, the Hungarian tót can be explained only from the Baltic “tauta” with the meaning “people, country, nation” (Zoltan 2008: 440). The archaeologist Gabor Vekon, quoted by Zoltan, wrote: “since the Hungarians for a long time called the Slavs the word tót, borrowed from the Baltic languages [...], it means that the ancestors of the Hungarians became acquainted with the ancestors of the Slavs even when they were not ethnically separated from the Balts ". Elsewhere, Vekon specifies the chronology of borrowing that he assumes - up to 500 AD.

The reason for limiting the borrowing of this ethnonym to the era of Balto-Slavic unity, in our opinion, is absent, if we take into account the intermediate, paraslavic character of the Imenkovo language
rCFEjvMGdRM.jpg
 
Thesis, please.
 
Come on, he has clearly never written a single essay, let alone a thesis.
Sorry, my English is bad - did I use a word wrong or it's a pun? :)
 
Sorry, my English is bad - did I use a word wrong or it's a pun? :)

Pun/insult.

I assume you meant thesis as in overarching, connecting principle to his disparate, inane rambling.

I used thesis as in the thing you hand in to get a degree at a university. Hence me saying that he has never written an essay, a thing you write at uni before having to write a thesis, implying that, based on this thread, he could not have attended, let alone finished, any University course.
 
Thesis, please.
They're obvious. In the year 769:
1) The Culture of all the provinces of Volga Bolgar to make the Baltic,
2) Place the Magyars on the Yugra, East Perm, Chimgi-Tura. Modern Sverdlovsk, Chelyabinsk region. Magyar and Mansi culture can be combined. The face of the Magyar and Mansi make Mongoloid. Is it possible that the Huns invaded from the Urals?
3) Khanty is not Mansi
%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8B.jpg

kmns.jpg
 
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1) Why? No matter who were people of Imenkovo culture (they could be balts, protoslavic, slavic or relic of balto-slavic unity - my favorite theory), in 8th century in Volga Bulgar it was, well, Bulgarian territory. Bulgars are definitly turks, and, as far as I can recall without turning CK2 on, it's turkik territories in-game.
Also, I would ask once again. As you insist to change cultures for historical reason, what's your criteries of being baltic or slavic?

2) I don't think it's reasonable. Magyars definitly could came from subUralic region, still, we don't have evidence about it. The first archeological finidings attributed to Magyars belongs to Pontic Steppes. I don't also think Magyar and Mansi should be combined, but I would not argue placing them in the same cultural group. I'd say, maybe for 769 the best idea would be a cultural group uniting Magyar and Khanty/Mansi, with Finnish Pagan religion (to ensure some kind of "cultural" unity with finno-ugric group), with Khanty (or Mansi, or Khanty-Mansi, call them as you want), living on Ural, and Magyars wandering in steppes.
Huns, still, I believe, bypassed Ural by south ways; I'm traditional here as well, and I do believe them being Xiongnu.

3) No, they're not. Still, it's quite close peoples. I believe them being merged in one culture is quite adequate for game proporses - as game engine doesn't allow multilayered culture groups (it's a pity!), finno-ugric group is already very big, including 8 cultures. It's not the biggest one (Altaic include 12, and Indo-Aryans include 11), but I don't think splitting Khanty on Khanty and Mansi would improve anything.
 
Why? No matter who were people of Imenkovo culture (they could be balts, protoslavic, slavic or relic of balto-slavic unity - my favorite theory), in 8th century in Volga Bulgar it was, well, Bulgarian territory. Bulgars are definitly turks, and, as far as I can recall without turning CK2 on, it's turkik territories in-game.
In the game, I saw the culture of the Svevs, who were conquered in 588. Why then the culture of the Balts in the Volga Bulgaria, which were conquered in the 660s, is impossible?
Also, I would ask once again. As you insist to change cultures for historical reason, what's your criteries of being baltic or slavic?
About accommodation Golyads in the Western suburbs shows the Ipatiev chronicle. Under 1147 it is reported that the Suzdal Prince Yuri Dolgoruky, who claimed the throne of Kiev, went with the army to Novgorod the Great, and Chernigov Prince Svyatoslav Olgovich ordered to fight Smolensk parish. The latter accepted the offer and took part of the Smolensk land in the basin of the Protva river, a tributary of the Oka, populated by Golyads — "...shed and took Svyatoslav people Golyads, the top of Poroto..." wrote the chronicle (PSRL, 1962, p. 339).

To Golyads suburbs is the message of Chronicles under the year 1058 the victory of Izyaslav Yaroslavich over the golyad (PSRL, 1962, p. 114). This is often interpreted as evidence of Izyaslav's military campaign in Galindia (Pashuto, 1959, p.11). However, Izyaslav in these years was in the Smolensk region and in North–Western Russia, was busy "establishment" of these lands and it is unlikely that there could organize a trip to the distant Prussian Galindia. Moreover, the event of 1248, marked by Chronicles, seems to be connected with the same Smolensk Golyads: "and Mikhail Yaroslavich of Moscow was killed from Lithuania on Porotva" (PSRL, 1925, p. 38). Moscow Prince Mikhail Khorobrit was forced to go to Protva again, where he died in the battle with Lithuania. Lithuania, on the river Protva in the mid-thirteenth century it is by far the descendants of golyadi. Thus, it is reliably determined that in the XI–XIII centuries in the Western suburbs in the basin of the river of the Protva lived Golyads.

Obviously, the tribe golyad under the name Сoldas named in the book of the historian of the VI Jordan 'Getica" (Jordanes, 1960, p. 89), as was first pointed out by A. L. Pogodin (1940, p.24). This ethnonym is mentioned by Jordan are among the names of a number of other Eastern European tribes without specifying their geographical location in connection with the characteristics of the Gothic king Germanarich, if these conquered the Northern tribes. Among the latter are clearly read Merya, Mordva, all, Chud. The work of Jordan was completed in 551, but the author widely used and not extant works of Ablabius (mid — V century) and Cassiodorus (late V-early VI century). Information about the golyadi here belong to the IV century.

The memory of the golyadi in some areas of its former residence was preserved in the XIX century. thus, the Kaluga local historian V. M. Kashkarov reports that in Meshchovsky district of Kaluga region. close to the village. Damn there is a mountain on which "according to legend, in very ancient times there lived a rogue Galaga on others Galaga. Had he excessive, 30 miles threw his axe". In the same County, near the villages Svinukhova, and Kuptsov V. Ph., Nikolenko local iately pointed out two mountains on which there lived two brothers–the robber of Galagi, being moved with each other with an axe (Kashkarov, 1901, pp. 12-13).

On the basis of topo — hydronyms, derived from the ethnonym Golyads, the researchers outline a fairly wide region of settlement of the tribe — from the upper reaches of the Klyazma river in the North to the upper reaches of the Zhizdra on the South and from the watershed of the Dnieper and the Volga in the West to the vicinity of Moscow in the East.

More V. N. Tatischev compared the chronicle with the ancient golyad galind and Galindia-one of the lands of Prussia. This quite rightly agreed to a number of researchers, and assuming that Oka golyad was a Balt (Lithuanian, in the terminology of the nineteenth century) tribe, and somehow appeared in the XII century on the river Protva in the environment of the Vyatichi and Krivichi. On the origin of the golyadi expressed several guesses. According to one of them, golyad moved from Galindia on the Protva together with Vyatichi and Radimichi, Lach origin which tells the "Tale of bygone years" (S. M. Solovyov, N. P. Barsov, A. A. Shakhmatov). Another group of scientists was seen in golyadi on the Protva settlement prisoners, resettled the ancient princes of Galindia (N. M. Karamzin, P. I. Safarik, P. I. Jakobi, V. T. Pachuca). Proponents of the third perspective, argued that the chronicle golyad was a relic of the ancient population of the East European plain, which occupied a vast space from ancient times ( P. I. Koeppen, N. I. Kostomarov, P. V. Golubovsky, M. K. Liubavskii, A. I. Sobolevsky, Y. V. Gautier, M. Vasmer).

The latest toponymic studies reliably show that the areas of the upper Oka basin, where the golyad is localized, make up an inseparable part of the ancient Baltic area. Moreover, the water names of the Baltic origin are not less than in other regions of the ancient settlement of this ethnic group. In this regard, it is possible with certainty to assert that Baltic tribes since remote antiquity until the Slavic migrations of settled lands of the upper basin of the Oka (Sedov, 1971, pp. 99-113; Axes, 1972a, p. 217-280; 19726, pp. 185-224; 1982, p. 3-61; 1988, p. 154-176).

The Slavs, as shown by archaeological materials, began to develop land in the basin of the upper Oka around the eighth century BC In an earlier time there lived tribes of Baltic ethno-linguistic pattern. In the early iron age it was the tribes of the upper Oka archaeological culture, related to Dnieper–Dvina culture of the Smolensk Podneprovie and Belarusian Dvina and juchnowski in the Podesenie, the identity of which native to the Baltic States is not in doubt. The speakers of these three cultures was a major dialect–tribal formation of the Dnieper Balts (Sedov V. V., 1985, pp. 20-29).

In the II‑III centuries BC in the region Verhnekam observed infiltration of new groups coming from Podesena. It is manifested in the appearance on the territory of the upper Oka culture of antiquities of the Pochep culture. The latter became widespread in the Desna basin in the I-III centuries ad and developed in the conditions of interaction of local tribes of the Yukhnov culture with the carriers of Zarubintsy antiquities settled in the same territory.

In the basin of the upper Oka immigrants from Podesena media pochepskaya antiquities settled or on the upper Oka archaeological culture settlements or founded new settlements. As a result of interaction of the indigenous population with newcomers in Verhnekam the region at the turn of the III and IV centuries formed a new culture (Fig. 1) — moshenska (Sedov, 1982, pp. 41-45). The basics of house building and the character of ceramic material (relatively thick‑walled pots with convex shoulders and narrowed bottom with rough or bumpy surface due to a significant admixture of wood and coarse sand) were the undoubted heritage of the local culture of the early iron age. However, moshenskoy culture there are elements (land house pole construction with internal rectangular pits, clay vessels, including those not previously known here are quite numerous bowls, with black or brown polished surface, characterized by craftsmanship and a dense dough with a mixture of fine sand), not genetically related with local antiquities. It is quite obvious that they were brought to Verkhneobskiy region immigrants from Podesena.

The question of the ethnicity of the carriers of Moshino culture is solved in this way. The basis of this culture was undoubtedly the upper reaches of antiquity, the carriers of which were the local Balts. Fellowship, ritual, ceramic material and decoration, in particular things, inlaid with colored enamels, give a reason for attributing media moshenskoy culture to baltoyazychnye population. Infiltration verkhneobskiy in the land of the descendants of zarubinetska tribes has not changed radically ethnicity of their inhabitants (Nicholas, 1966, pp. 15-16; Tret'yakov, 1970, 60; Sedov, 1970, p. 42-44).

Upper Oka in the region as in the left part of Upper Dneprs pools, along with water-names of Baltic origin, having compliance in the Dvina and modern Lithuanian–Latvian zemelakh, there are hydronyms west baltic (Prussian–Sudovian–Galitskogo) appearance. The General characteristic of the latter was made by me in connection with the issue of ethnic belonging of the tribes of Zarubintsy culture (Sedov, 1970, 44-47). The attribution of some of these hydronyms to the West Baltic group is debatable, but among them there are also quite reliable (for example, with the Prussian root element "are" or with MENA–z — z). In this regard, V. N. The axes in your schedule in studies specifically devoted to Moscow, stressed that "powerful zapadnobaltiyskuyu component" in the Dnieper left Bank and the Upper Pooche clear (Toporov 1982, p. 15). Indicative in this respect are also detected by this researcher "matching between Galindo–Prussian and Sochi–Oka ("Gradski") hydronyms" (Toporov, 1981, p. 114; 1980, p. 135).

The emergence on the eastern outskirts of the ancient Balt range of water names of the Prussian – Yatviazh – Galinda types, like the ethnonym Golad, are direct evidence of the movement of some groups of the population from the Western Baltic lands. This moment naturally needs to be explained.

At present, the spread in the Upper-Oke and Left-Bank-Dnieper regions interspersions of the hydronimics of the West-Balt form can be caused only by the migration of descendants of the Zarubynets culture tribes. As is well known, in the composition of classical Zarubinsk antiquities of the Pripyatsky Polissya and Middle Dnieper regions the leading role belonged to the Pomorian culture, which is defined as peripheral-Balt culture, perhaps its carriers occupied some intermediate position between the Western Balts and the Slavs. Throughout the whole area of the settlement of Zarubinsk tribes, researchers have recorded the geographical names of Western-Baltic types. They are in Pripyat Polesie (Non-Aggregate, 1976, p. 103, 145, 169).

In the second half of I century. n e. Significant groups of the Zarubinsk population from the Pripyatsky Polesye and Middle Dnieper regions are moving into the Desna basin, where, as already mentioned, the Popepean culture is taking shape. The carriers of the latter in the following centuries penetrate the upper Oka, where the Moschinskaya culture is formed. It must be assumed that the migration of the Zarubezinsk population and its descendants did not bring about significant changes in the ethnic and linguistic situations of the Floor and Upper Pochya. The natives of these lands, the Dnieper Balts, adopted into their surroundings a kindred population. At the same time, the settlers introduced Western-Baltic language features to these lands, revealed primarily in hydronymy (Sedov, 1970, pp. 42-48; 1994, p. 201-219). There are no other explanations for the appearance of Western-Baltic linguistic elements in the east of the ancient Balt range.

Moschinsk culture left definitely Dominical population. In the 8th century, when the Upper Oka basin was settled by the Slavs (Fig. 2), it ceases to develop. Slavs brought to this region cultural elements, manifested in house building and ceramic material, comparable to the materials of Romenskaya and Borshevsky cultures. At the same time, it is obvious that the local Baltic population in the bulk during the Slavic settlement did not leave their habitats. A vivid example of the interplay between the Moschinsky tribes and the Slavs is the appearance of the latter’s custom of burying the dead in barrows.

The burial monuments of the Moschinsky culture are hemispherical or truncated-conical barrows with a height of 2–4 m and base diameters of 10–15 m. Their characteristic feature is a ring fence, arranged, in all likelihood, for ritual purposes at the time of burial. These fences are reminiscent of the annular structure of the pagan sanctuary, opened in Tushemla in the Smolensk region. Judging by the materials of the excavations of the Shankovo and Pochepk mounds, layers of burnt earth with coal and remains of burnt-burning were located in the center of the embankments. Clay vessels were set a little apart from the burial remains, sometimes upside down. Burials in all cases were zero, vessels were placed in barrows with ritual purposes.

The Slavs who settled in the area of the Moschinsk culture did not initially know the Kurgan rituals and adopted it from the natives. The custom of the construction of ring fences was also accepted. True, they are found only in part of the mounds of the 8th – 10th centuries.

In the upper Oka (to the mouth of the Ugra), the process of Slavicization of the aboriginal population apparently proceeded quite actively to the 11th – 12th centuries. completed Mounds XI ‑ XII centuries. This region already has a characteristic Vyatichsky appearance. Only on its outskirts, where the Vyatichi colonization met with the Krivichi, separate burials of the calves are revealed. Such is the mound 1 of the Trashkovichi burial ground, in which a horse is buried on the mainland and a few men to the south is a male burial, which is oriented head to the east. When it was found, an iron ax and spearhead, as well as a clay pot (Bulychov, 18996, p. 57-61). The eastern orientation of those buried in the ancient Russian barrows of the forest zone of the Eastern European Plain, as established today, is a legacy of the Baltic funerary rites (Sedov, 1970, pp. 162-171). The presence of an ax and a spear with the buried is not characteristic of the Eastern Slavic ritual and finds numerous analogies also in the medieval Baltic world, for example, in the Latgali monuments.

The eastern orientation of the buried was recorded in two more kurgans of the Trashkovichsky burial ground. An ax and a knife were found in the mound 12 at burial, in the mound 16 there was a knife and a buckle. The rest of the excavated mounds of this necropolis contained warp locations with a western orientation and possessions characteristic of Smolensk Krivichi.

I don't think it's reasonable. Magyars definitly could came from subUralic region, still, we don't have evidence about it. The first archeological finidings attributed to Magyars belongs to Pontic Steppes. I don't also think Magyar and Mansi should be combined, but I would not argue placing them in the same cultural group. I'd say, maybe for 769 the best idea would be a cultural group uniting Magyar and Khanty/Mansi, with Finnish Pagan religion (to ensure some kind of "cultural" unity with finno-ugric group), with Khanty (or Mansi, or Khanty-Mansi, call them as you want), living on Ural, and Magyars wandering in steppes.
Do you consider the current location of the Magyar historically correct?
Oleg (Helgu) Prophetic. War with Ugrians, 898.
When resettling to the west, the Ugric hordes passed on Russian soil and appeared around the walls of Kiev around 898. The Ugrians surrounded Kiev, blocking all the approaches to it, as all nomads did. The Tale of Bygone Years does not tell about the opposition of the Rus and the Ugrians.
In turn, the unknown Hungarian author of an essay of the 12th — 13th centuries “Acts of the Hungarians” says that, moving to the west, the Ugrian tribes reached the Kiev lands and “wanted to subjugate the kingdom of the Russians”. The prince of Kiev (presumably Oleg), marched with his army to meet the Ugrians and engaged them in battle, but was defeated by the army of the Hungarian leader Almosh. The Ugrians pursued the Russ right up to the walls of Kiev, behind which they took refuge. Then the Hungarians scattered around the region, devastating the surrounding towns and villages. Russ requested peace. During the talks, the Ugrians demanded to send hostages to the camp, to provide them with food, clothing and other necessary supplies, and also to pay an annual tribute of ten thousand silver marks. The Ruses, in turn, set the condition: the Hungarians must immediately leave the Kiev lands, which the Ugrians hurriedly did.
Huns, still, I believe, bypassed Ural by south ways; I'm traditional here as well, and I do believe them being Xiongnu.
The path to the West was extremely difficult, since Xianbei who were chasing the fugitives were behind the backs of the surviving Huns. The great historian L.N. Gumilev writes that women could not stand this transition. Only physically and spiritually strong people survived, i.e., mostly men. But how many were there? The answer to this question is contained in Gumilev’s book, The Millennium Around the Caspian Sea: “Let’s return to the demographic problem, which, despite the approximate numerical data, gives us the necessary solution. It was stated above that the Huns in the 1st c. BC e. there were 300 thousand people. For 1-2 centuries. n e. there was an increase, but very small, since the Huns were fighting all the time, they were joined only by Chinese immigrants — the Kuls ”. I emphasize that the Kuls are the emigrants who fled from the arbitrariness of Chinese officials and the emperor, who believed that they would find peace with the Huns. “Kulami”, that is, slaves, they were called the Huns. Having merged into the Hun power system, the kula became a Hun subethnos. In 3 v. in China, there were 30 thousand families, i.e., about 150 thousand Huns, and "insignificant" in Central Asia, about 200 thousand (Hun-yueban). So how much could go to the West? At best, 20-30 thousand warriors, without wives, children and old people, unable to endure a retreat in a foreign country without respite, for Syanbians chased the Huns and killed the rest.
These energetic, passionate people traveled 2,600 km in 1,000 days. They stopped only on the territory of the Ural-Volga interfluve, where, having found refuge and quiet life, the Huns literally became friends with the Finno-Ugric tribes. It is known that many of the Finno-Ugric left the steppe zone and sailed north along the Ob, where already in the northern part of the Urals they met with a little-known tribe - Siirtya, belonging to some Ust-Poluy culture. Siirtya was considered to be a very dangerous and merciless people, who suddenly attack aliens. The Huns who came to the new lands did not fight for anybody for 200 years, they lived peacefully, making up the Hunno-Ugro-Finnish symbiosis. As mentioned above, the Huns did not have enough women, and they compensated for the lack thanks to the Ugrs. We cannot speak of complete assimilation, there was only a symbiosis and no more. An ethnos of the Huns was formed, i.e. those of the most terrible "savages" for Europeans. Although, judging by the fact that for such a period of time from 160 to 360 AD the Huns did not wage wars, one can judge that Roman-German historians exaggerated. One of them is the historian Ammianus Marcellinus, who, according to his scout, frightened by the “terrible nomadic barbarians,” reported to his master about unknown strangers.
No, they're not. Still, it's quite close peoples. I believe them being merged in one culture is quite adequate for game proporses - as game engine doesn't allow multilayered culture groups (it's a pity!), finno-ugric group is already very big, including 8 cultures. It's not the biggest one (Altaic include 12, and Indo-Aryans include 11), but I don't think splitting Khanty on Khanty and Mansi would improve anything.
The military tradition of the Mansi differed significantly from the Khanty.
 
Why then the culture of the Balts in the Volga Bulgaria, which were conquered in the 660s, is impossible?
First of all, because Imenkovo culture being Baltic isn't a mainstream version. So, we need to prove them being baltic, not, let's say, slavic, first (at least if we don't have any other reason doing so but "it's not impossible" and "there is historical inaccuracies in other places").
Secondly, we would need to remove Bulgars from Volga Bulgaria, which is definitly wrong.
Thirdly, Svebs as population of Galicia described even in 10th century.

The Slavs, as shown by archaeological materials, began to develop land in the basin of the upper Oka around the eighth century BC In an earlier time there lived tribes of Baltic ethno-linguistic pattern
I'm starting to have a strange feeling you're constantly mixing BC and AD dates. 8 century BC is, well, somewhere in the date when Rome was founded. So, yeah, even if before 8th century BC in the basin of the upper Oka there were some tribes of Baltic ethno-linguistic pattern... well, Slavs were part of tribes of Baltic ethno-linguistic pattern.

There are no other explanations for the appearance of Western-Baltic linguistic elements in the east of the ancient Balt range.
Not true. I can repeat another explanation once again - "slavic-baltic union, from which slavic and baltic languages appeared, existed from Black to Baltic Sea; we're seeing relics, not new elements".

Archaeologically
So, reading your source, I believe it can be summed like this:
"there are traces of baltic presence in cultures traditionaly attributed as slavic ones; characteristically non-baltic elements also exists in the same cultures. Some hydronims on the same territory are baltic, some are not. Some burials in the upper Oka include elements, like axes and spears, which can be attributed as baltic, and some don't."
So I can't see how this source (even if we take it as a gospel, which I'm not convinced to do) prove a need to remove slavs from Eastern Europe in 8th century, or replace them (not to mention turks of Volga Bulgary) by balts. Yup. Quite possible it was slavs with some kind of baltic rites and material culture.

Do you consider the current location of the Magyar historically correct?
As we don't have time machine, I'd consider current location of Magyar quite ok. At least, it fits archeology and, well, “Acts of the Hungarians”.

Gumilev. Northern Huns.
I can only repeat myself - I'm tend to be traditionalist.
Why, actually, I should accept Gumilev ideas, who isn't even historican, and whose methodology was and is critiqued as a hell?

The military tradition of the Mansi differed significantly from the Khanty.
Close enough for people who knows them for centuries to call them by one word.
 
First of all, because Imenkovo culture being Baltic isn't a mainstream version. So, we need to prove them being baltic, not, let's say, slavic, first (at least if we don't have any other reason doing so but "it's not impossible" and "there is historical inaccuracies in other places").
Secondly, we would need to remove Bulgars from Volga Bulgaria, which is definitly wrong.
Thirdly, Svebs as population of Galicia described even in 10th century.
The culture of the Bulgars can be made the culture of the dominant ethnic group. Didn’t Imenkovts have any influence on Volga Bulgaria?

I'm starting to have a strange feeling you're constantly mixing BC and AD dates. 8 century BC is, well, somewhere in the date when Rome was founded. So, yeah, even if before 8th century BC in the basin of the upper Oka there were some tribes of Baltic ethno-linguistic pattern... well, Slavs were part of tribes of Baltic ethno-linguistic pattern.
Yes, I confused

Not true. I can repeat another explanation once again - "slavic-baltic union, from which slavic and baltic languages appeared, existed from Black to Baltic Sea; we're seeing relics, not new elements".
Archaeologist Sedov does not agree with you. Baltic ethnic groups existed before the 13th century AD

So, reading your source, I believe it can be summed like this:
"there are traces of baltic presence in cultures traditionaly attributed as slavic ones; characteristically non-baltic elements also exists in the same cultures. Some hydronims on the same territory are baltic, some are not. Some burials in the upper Oka include elements, like axes and spears, which can be attributed as baltic, and some don't."
So I can't see how this source (even if we take it as a gospel, which I'm not convinced to do) prove a need to remove slavs from Eastern Europe in 8th century, or replace them (not to mention turks of Volga Bulgary) by balts. Yup. Quite possible it was slavs with some kind of baltic rites and material culture.
Slavs were closest to the Western Balts: Yatvyags, Prussians. Prussian language was not clear to the Slavs.

As we don't have time machine, I'd consider current location of Magyar quite ok. At least, it fits archeology and, well, “Acts of the Hungarians”.
The first Ugrians penetrated with the Huns. Magyar penetrated in the 9th century on the annals. No time machine

I can only repeat myself - I'm tend to be traditionalist.
Why, actually, I should accept Gumilev ideas, who isn't even historican, and whose methodology was and is critiqued as a hell?
No one spoke of them as pure thoroughbred Huns. This is your unconventional version. Even outwardly, the Huns did not look like the Xiunnu: they deformed the skull. The custom of skull deformation is a Sarmatian custom.
Taken from here: http://ru.science.wikia.com/wiki/Гунны
The Huns (from the Greek. Hunnoi, Lat. Chunni, Hunni) are nomadic people who formed in the 2nd-4th centuries in the Urals region from local Ugrians and Sarmatians and nomadic Turkic-speaking Huns (Chinese), who arrived here in the 2nd century from steppe China.

Close enough for people who knows them for centuries to call them by one word.
The Khanty did not build fortresses, they did not have heavily armed infantry, they did not have cavalry. Khanty did not build fortresses, they did not have heavily armed infantry, they did not have cavalry. They did not restrain the onslaught of Muscovy and Novgorod as restrained the onslaught of the Yugra (Mansi).
 
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Zarubints is Bastarns. The top of the Bastarns was German, those who fled to the Dnieper were carriers of Przeworsk culture: a mixture of Italics, West Balts, Germans, Celts. These Bastarns burned and ate werewolves, Neurs. As says Sedov.
 
The culture of the Bulgars can be made the culture of the dominant ethnic group. Didn’t Imenkovtsy have any influence on Volga Bulgaria?
I have literally no idea. But game engine doesn't allow us to have "dominant" and "minor" ethnic groups in the same province. The best thing, it's allowing to have culture of province and another culture of noble who rule this province.

Archaeologist Sedov does not agree with you. Archaeologist Sedov does not agree with you.
It's hard to forbid him. Still, is archeologist Sedov's version mainstream?

Baltic ethnic groups existed before the 13th century AD
Mhm. Baltic ethnic groups exists even today.
Some balts lived in 13th century on Oka? Possible. Oka being baltic region in 13th century? Let's say I doubt it. So, a question. Why do you believe Slavs colonized Eastern Europe? When can we say "ok, so it's slavic lands now"? I mean, it happened sooner or later, right?

The first Ugrians penetrated with the Huns. Magyar penetrated in the 9th century on the annals. No time machine
You don't understand. To be sure we need time machine - to travel into 8th century and complete modern ethnographical research. We haven't one.

No one spoke of them as pure thoroughbred Huns. This is your unconventional version.
I don't even know what's "pure thoroughbred Huns". I just don't believe in passionary theory of ethnogenesis, and cite you present based on its framework: some kind of passonate people who came, with great suffering, into new region to find new home, without women and children, without means of craft, and where 30 thousand warriors, running from certain death, came into new region to live peacefully and in symbiosis with locals.
So, no. I don't think they were "pure thoroughbred Huns". I don't even believe in any pureblooded tribal society, if they have any option not to be.

Zarubints is Bastarns.
Yes, that's one version.

a mixture of Italics, West Balts, Germans, Celts.
...and now check Praslavic linguistic borrowings and Slavic genetic complex.

...as they restrained their Ugra (Mansi).
That's the point - Ugra isn't just Mansi, it's Khanty and Mansi.
 
I have literally no idea. But game engine doesn't allow us to have "dominant" and "minor" ethnic groups in the same province. The best thing, it's allowing to have culture of province and another culture of noble who rule this province.
It is possible to make the culture of the Bulgars culture of the nobles, then they eventually assimilate the Balts.
It's hard to forbid him. Still, is archeologist Sedov's version mainstream?
Not only him. But he is the most outstanding, having spent a lot of time. He writes that before the arrival of the Bastarnas, the Balts did not even know the metallurgy.

Mhm. Baltic ethnic groups exists even today.
Some balts lived in 13th century on Oka? Possible. Oka being baltic region in 13th century? Let's say I doubt it. So, a question. Why do you believe Slavs colonized Eastern Europe? When can we say "ok, so it's slavic lands now"? I mean, it happened sooner or later, right?
Imagine that the goliad tribe survived in the 13th century, as it was in ancient times? Rather, I tend to think about the vast areal.
You don't understand. To be sure we need time machine - to travel into 8th century and complete modern ethnographical research. We haven't one.
I always thought that the developers did it intentionally.
1) If you place the Hungarians in the Urals, they simply will not reach the Danube. Deviate from the course.
2) Also, the Goths, who founded the Eastern European Empire, will not reach the new homeland.
Artificial intelligence is not capable of this.
I don't even know what's "pure thoroughbred Huns". I just don't believe in passionary theory of ethnogenesis, and cite you present based on its framework: some kind of passonate people who came, with great suffering, into new region to find new home, without women and children, without means of craft, and where 30 thousand warriors, running from certain death, came into new region to live peacefully and in symbiosis with locals.
So, no. I don't think they were "pure thoroughbred Huns". I don't even believe in any pureblooded tribal society, if they have any option not to be.
So you do not believe this scientific resources?
That's the point - Ugra isn't just Mansi, it's Khanty and Mansi.
From the 21st century
 
It is possible to make the culture of the Bulgars culture of the nobles, then they eventually assimilate the Balts.
Yes, it is; but I quite not sure it's more historical then Volga Bulgaria being Bulgar. Quite the opposite, actually.

Not only him. But he is the most outstanding, having spent a lot of time.
That's not exactly what I asked. Is his view on Oka ethnic picture mainstream?

Imagine that the goliad tribe survived in the 13th century, as it was in ancient times?
I can imagine this, no problem. But how this answer my question? Let me repeat: why do you believe Eastern Europe stopped to be Baltic and started to be Slavic? In IX century? XI? XIII?

I always thought that the developers did it intentionally.
I always thought developers just opened "Acts of Hungarians", read there about magyars who attacked Rus from Scythia, and placed them appropriative. Maybe also they checked archeological sources that believed to be definitly magyar.

Artificial intelligence is not capable of this.
Why the hell do you believe so? It's not simple, but very simple to target them on Pannonia.
Question is why.

So you do not believe this scientific resources?
I'm not believe any historical resource based on L. Gumilev as scientific. He was brilliant writer though.

From the 21st century
Quite the opposite. Today Mansi and Khanty is differentiated. But in 13th century both of them were "Ugra".
It's understandable - no people there was ethnologist. But that means that contemporary people doesn't differ them.
 
That's not exactly what I asked. Is his view on Oka ethnic picture mainstream?
Yes. I groped for a long time scientific resources. Everywhere refer to him: 1) Old Rus http://histformat.com/2017-03-04/, 2) Medieval Rus https://medievalrus.livejournal.com. At the same time, the author of their second resource does not agree with Sedov that the Balts participated in the ethnogenesis of the Radimichi. He considers them pure Slavs.
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I can imagine this, no problem. But how this answer my question? Let me repeat: why do you believe Eastern Europe stopped to be Baltic and started to be Slavic? In IX century? XI? XIII?
Quote from the article: "It is noteworthy that according to archaeological data, the Moscow region Golads (Galinds) kept apart for a very long time, not letting more or less significant groups Viatichi and other Slavic colonists in their land, it is believed, right up to XV century (Sedov 2000: 82)".
I believe that the Slavs tried to revive the empire of Ermanaric. They were attracted to fur. They were also attracted to amber, which is why they started a series of wars with the Balts in alliance with the Avars. I have already laid out the image of the Avar war with the Balts.
 
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"It is noteworthy that according to archaeological data, the Moscow region Golads (Galinds) kept apart for a very long time, not letting more or less significant groups Viatichi and other Slavic colonists in their land, it is believed, right up to XV century
So it was Baltic until 15 century; meaning Moscow wasn't Slavic in the times of Ivan III Rurikovich. And you believe it being historical mainstream. Right?
 
So it was Baltic until 15 century; meaning Moscow wasn't Slavic in the times of Ivan III Rurikovich. And you believe it being historical mainstream. Right?
That is, the works of scientific luminaries of Russia are even worse than Belarusia? Or maybe you need to make the luminaries of history?
What is interesting: such relic groups persist for a very long time. Examples: the sorbs of East Germany, or the Ruyanns of the island of Rügen.
So anything is possible. Moscow until the 14th century was a village with a population of 10 thousand people. The command and administrative apparatus and the church have certainly been Slavs, since the founding of Moscow.
 
Moscow until the 14th century was a village with a population of 10 thousand people.
Moscow of 15 century (as you called it yourself) is a capital of Rus lands, controlling Novgorod, Suzdal, Tver, able to fight Golden Horde, Sweden, Lithuania, going into Ugra. And no source saying they're Balts, you know. It's quite written-up period.
Even baltic borrowings in Russian is A LOT older.

I mean, we're not saying about "hey, there was a village, or maybe even several villages, where, if you search long enough, you can find some people who can be named balts", right? We're saying about ethnical majority. So, you're still declaring that ethnical majority of Muscovy was Baltic in 15th century, and proclaim it scientifical mainstream?
 
Moscow of 15 century (as you called it yourself) is a capital of Rus lands, controlling Novgorod, Suzdal, Tver, able to fight Golden Horde, Sweden, Lithuania, going into Ugra. And no source saying they're Balts, you know. It's quite written-up period.
Even baltic borrowings in Russian is A LOT older.

I mean, we're not saying about "hey, there was a village, or maybe even several villages, where, if you search long enough, you can find some people who can be named balts", right? We're saying about ethnical majority. So, you're still declaring that ethnical majority of Muscovy was Baltic in 15th century, and proclaim it scientifical mainstream?
Definitely. All resources and journals referenced by the Russian Academy of Sciences referenced to Sedov.
The text states until the XV century. That is, in the XIV century, the last enclaves remained, which faded away in the early 1400s, as in the case of the Ruyans.