The Magna Carta

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The Magna Carta has become one of the most significant documents produced in the middle ages (in western culture any way). Although the ramifications of the document may not have been immediate I wonder how it will be represented in the game? There are many possible ramifications of the document as history is somewhat clouded by lore. The original intent of the document seems to be etched in most western culture minds as King John placating the nobility and giving them power. But what led up to this? And what forced a king to take this unprecedented step at stability? There is an awesome website on this issue, ( http://www.infokey.com/hon/magna.htm ). Frankly I think the signing of the Magna Carta has been shrouded in so much romanticism that I openly wonder how, if it at all, it will be depicted in CK.

Please have a read of the site above, I am curious to know what people think of that assessment (which I agree with, the political, economic and military pressure leading up to the signing that made the document happen, not the subsequent empowering the magna carta has come to be associated with exclusively) and how it can, will or should pertain to the game.

Thanks,

Odin

 

[crazy canuck]

Without knowing more details regarding how the diplomacy in the game is going to work it is difficult to speculate.

There has been debate as to whether various historical events should be scripted "Events" or not.

Magna Carta should propably not be scripted because as you point out it grew out of a specific set of circumstances which may not be present once the game has run a couple hundred years.

It would be really cool if the game has such a sophisticated diplomacy system that a king can make his Barons happy by making rules resticting the power of the crown - or perhaps transfering certain power to his vassels.

 

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AFAIK the event system will be more complex and most importantly more flexible than the EU one.
So I think Magna Charta could be an event, although I too wish it would be generally integrated in the game engine.
Those pesky German nobles are groveling again? Please them with a Magna Charta, and off to the crusade you can go...

 

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Well I am inclined to think it should be a scripted event given political conditions. It was under duress and a threat of a joint french and scottish invasion that it was signed. But the effect was what I think could be a game altering issue. Suppose things occur historically to that point, then it would certainly lower the prestige of John. I dont know how that is represented in the game, but the family prestige I think should go down. Some may argue that it should go up given the historical implications of the act.

The signifigance of the magna carta was something my history teacher really harped on. To give him his due it certainly was a precedessor to greater civil freedoms down the road but when it was signed I am inclined to think it had a greater positive political effect for england. It bought John some grace time and certainly should improve relations to all nobles and France and scotland specifically, and perhaps thier allies in game at the time.

I brought it up because its one historical event from the period that is now fully realized, but at the time of the signing its sketchy at best its impact. Because its a historically identifiable event that can definately be covered in an event I was curious as to how it would be covered or should be covered. Myself I am a little torn. I am from the U.S. and it seems this event was covered extensively as a prelude to our constitution and bill of rights, is that how it is represented in other countries? Is thier a great deal of historical signifigance associated with the signing? If so how is it depicted? How is that depiction applicable to the time, as opposed to how the documented effected your system in the future.

Curious........

Odin

 

[stnylan]

Just to throw the cat in among the pigeons...

there is any argument that Magna Carta was more or less unimportant since it was voided about 6 weeks after it was signed


OK, slightly facetious, but fun

 

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Originally posted by stnylan
Just to throw the cat in among the pigeons...

there is any argument that Magna Carta was more or less unimportant since it was voided about 6 weeks after it was signed


OK, slightly facetious, but fun

Absolutely! Still I am curious as to the concensus of importance this event has in history. The application to modern social political systems is well documented, the impact at the time was clearly for John to buy time, not to issue an edict to begin a social politcal reform. Its depicted that way, at least thats what I was impressed with until I researched it myself, because it such a historically signifigant event I just wondered how it would be portrayed in the game, how it could be.

Speculative, but I was real bored at work and wanted to see what kind of responses I would get. Be curious to hear what a programmer/mod may have to say on it, but heh im fishing for a programmers update I guess.

 

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The Magna Charta is paramount to the democratic evolution of the United Kingdom and the western world. Let’s not forget than, to my knowledge, the British do not have a Constitution. They don’t need one; and that is because democratic values are deeply rooted into their political and judicial system. Along with Habeas Corpus, trial by a jury of peers and the common law, the Magna Charta constitutes the foundation of a self-governing system.

On the other hand, the French had to suffer the mortification of a gory revolution and its infamous guillotine in order to gain what the British had all along.

 

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Originally posted by SirIsaacBrock
The Magna Charta is paramount to the democratic evolution of the United Kingdom and the western world. Let’s not forget than, to my knowledge, the British do not have a Constitution. They don’t need one; and that is because democratic values are deeply rooted into their political and judicial system. Along with Habeas Corpus, trial by a jury of peers and the common law, the Magna Charta constitutes the foundation of a self-governing system.

On the other hand, the French had to suffer the mortification of a gory revolution and its infamous guillotine in order to gain what the British had all along.

That is all true, but if you think about it, most of the benefits you list accrue much later than the end of the time period covered in CK. I think the question is, what should the effects be in that time period, and how to represent them.

 

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"Please have a read of the site above, I am curious to know what people think of that assessment"

A couple points:

1. Documents like the Magna Charta were not unusual in medieval europe. Several Priviledges had to be granted eg by the crown of Aragon that went far beyond the Magna Charta, esp the Priviledge of Union.

2. The Magna Charta was revoked and reenacted several times. Also nothing unusual. What made it important was that a bunch of english politicians and lawyers invoked it in the 17th century and developped it further.
That was somehow unique, although the same line of medieval freedoms to modern constitutional freedoms existed in France - the revolution's National Assembly emerged from the assemly of the old feudal General Estates of the Realm. Also it's a bit ahistorical to limit english revolutions to the glorious revolution. Cromwell et al may have something against that.

3. A propos ahistorical... I'd really prefer the author would not refer to the later Louis VIII. as "Dauphin" all the time. That title dates from the 14th century, at the time of the Magna Charta the Dauphiné wasn't even part of France.

4. In game terms, I guess it heavily affects your "policy sliders" or whatever it's called in CK. But it should be an effect that can emerge in all lands, but please not randomly, but just in crisis (bancrupt, war fatigue, whatever...).

 

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Originally posted by el Cerimoniós
"Please have a read of the site above, I am curious to know what people think of that assessment"

A couple points:

1. Documents like the Magna Charta were not unusual in medieval europe. Several Priviledges had to be granted eg by the crown of Aragon that went far beyond the Magna Charta, esp the Priviledge of Union.

2. The Magna Charta was revoked and reenacted several times. Also nothing unusual. What made it important was that a bunch of english politicians and lawyers invoked it in the 17th century and developped it further.
That was somehow unique, although the same line of medieval freedoms to modern constitutional freedoms existed in France - the revolution's National Assembly emerged from the assemly of the old feudal General Estates of the Realm. Also it's a bit ahistorical to limit english revolutions to the glorious revolution. Cromwell et al may have something against that.

3. A propos ahistorical... I'd really prefer the author would not refer to the later Louis VIII. as "Dauphin" all the time. That title dates from the 14th century, at the time of the Magna Charta the Dauphiné wasn't even part of France.

4. In game terms, I guess it heavily affects your "policy sliders" or whatever it's called in CK. But it should be an effect that can emerge in all lands, but please not randomly, but just in crisis (bancrupt, war fatigue, whatever...).

1. Yes, and maybe a good argument for a domestic diplo option in game to placate/increase loyalty of nobility?

2. Again, a diplo option that can be used as a tool for a sovereign.

3. Point taken, does take away from the article.

4. I agree not random it should be an option for a soveriegn as a diplomatic tool.

Odin

 

[unmerged(11390)]

Yes, I think it can take two forms: You either grant priviledges in exchange for something on your own initiative, or you are forced to do this due to certain troubles in your realm.

The question is whether the voluntary option is not already represented by policy sliders anyway. In that case, it would only make sense as a sort of "grant grand priviledge in exchange for x money/troops/whatever". Your future income etc would have to suffer for balance reasons, I suppose....

As a historical e xample, for Peter III. in his struggle with Charles of Anjou and Philipp III., it was a mix of both factors.

PS: I do not think my little quibbles take away much from the article. It shows the complexity of the power struggles that gave birth to documents like this, and compared to the often cheesy Robinhoodesque stories about the Magna Charta, it provides some great insights.

 

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Originally posted by el Cerimoniós
Yes, I think it can take two forms: You either grant priviledges in exchange for something on your own initiative, or you are forced to do this due to certain troubles in your realm.

The question is whether the voluntary option is not already represented by policy sliders anyway. In that case, it would only make sense as a sort of "grant grand priviledge in exchange for x money/troops/whatever". Your future income etc would have to suffer for balance reasons, I suppose....

As a historical e xample, for Peter III. in his struggle with Charles of Anjou and Philipp III., it was a mix of both factors.

PS: I do not think my little quibbles take away much from the article. It shows the complexity of the power struggles that gave birth to documents like this, and compared to the often cheesy Robinhoodesque stories about the Magna Charta, it provides some great insights.

I think we are in agreement on how it can be handled in game, My hope is that it isnt a major event but more a tool used for sovereigns as it was used historically.

Your quibbles are well worded and noted, I took the article as more of a depiction of the time and the application of the magna carta then not now, thats why I posted the link to illistrate my point that it is a historical event thats signifigance wasnt fully recognized until later, and in actuallity was a fairly insignifigant act at the time.

Odin