The Malay Archipelago

[Incompetent]

This region isn't currently home to any majors, but it is very, very rich, and with the new Eastern powers, we have to be careful we don't make it all a walkover for them. By Abe standards, controlling Indonesia alone and having it right-culture, right-religion puts you among the major powers, nevermind any holdings in mainland China or some other enormous source of wealth.

The vanilla setup, with natives everywhere, feeble MP and a few tiny Muslim states, is not really historical at all. Rather, it partly reflects the state of play when the Dutch turned up, after the spread of Islam in the region and the disintegration of the Majapahit Empire, and then decides to portray most of the minor states as disorganised 'natives' in order to give the Netherlands a really easy time.

The archipelago is a crossroads, yes, and it should be fought over, but it shouldn't be a pushover, and certainly I wouldn't want to see the spice islands all Italian Catholic or whatever. Maybe we should use AGCEEP or something as a starting point and Aberrate from there. An intermediate option in some places is to use fortified colonies, in the style of India, so that colonial powers at least need to win a war to get the land. But I'm a bit worried that as it stands, it'll be too much of a gift to whoever gets there first - whereas it's quite an achievement to reach the archipelago as a European power, and it often happens late in the game, some Asian coloniser will have gobbled up the lot by 1500 if we're not careful, making them enormously wealthy and powerful relative to their rivals.

 

[yourworstnightm]

I'd like to see a lot of Hindu countries in indonesia, since hinduism historically was strong there, before it was competed out by islam.

 

[unmerged(33565)]

This region isn't currently home to any majors, but it is very, very rich, and with the new Eastern powers, we have to be careful we don't make it all a walkover for them. By Abe standards, controlling Indonesia alone and having it right-culture, right-religion puts you among the major powers, nevermind any holdings in mainland China or some other enormous source of wealth.

I would say it is semi-rich, there are some tax rich provinces on Java (a 10, 8 and 2 7s), and there are also several other 8 tax provinces, but most provinces are 3, 4 or 5 values. Overall I would say that the regions tax values should be lowered by at least 2. That would cause alot of 1, 2 or 3 value provinces in the area. Not what I would call prime areas that I would spend a lot of money to get. Sure there would be several provinces that would be fought over, but where is that not true. The main thing that income can come from is production income, and this does not become a factor till later in the game.

The vanilla setup, with natives everywhere, feeble MP and a few tiny Muslim states, is not really historical at all. Rather, it partly reflects the state of play when the Dutch turned up, after the spread of Islam in the region and the disintegration of the Majapahit Empire, and then decides to portray most of the minor states as disorganised 'natives' in order to give the Netherlands a really easy time.

The archipelago is a crossroads, yes, and it should be fought over, but it shouldn't be a pushover, and certainly I wouldn't want to see the spice islands all Italian Catholic or whatever. Maybe we should use AGCEEP or something as a starting point and Aberrate from there. An intermediate option in some places is to use fortified colonies, in the style of India, so that colonial powers at least need to win a war to get the land. But I'm a bit worried that as it stands, it'll be too much of a gift to whoever gets there first - whereas it's quite an achievement to reach the archipelago as a European power, and it often happens late in the game, some Asian coloniser will have gobbled up the lot by 1500 if we're not careful, making them enormously wealthy and powerful relative to their rivals.

The problem I have with the AGCEEP set up is that there are only a couple of minor provinces off to the side that are actually open which makes the colonization scene rather dead if you ask me. (there are 4 or 5 side island open) Right now there are 3 powers (from Asia) that we are looking at have compete for this area. Each will have advantages and disadvantages from low base manpower and tax values to arriving later in the scene to having its homeland surrounded by hostile countries.

I think that if we balance out the countries that have a chance at colonizing the area, we can have a really nice conflict erupt around 1550 or so. Sure maybe a real major power will come out of this, but later on there could be some really nasty events for the winner.

 

[Incompetent]

I would say it is semi-rich, there are some tax rich provinces on Java (a 10, 8 and 2 7s), and there are also several other 8 tax provinces, but most provinces are 3, 4 or 5 values. Overall I would say that the regions tax values should be lowered by at least 2. That would cause alot of 1, 2 or 3 value provinces in the area. Not what I would call prime areas that I would spend a lot of money to get. Sure there would be several provinces that would be fought over, but where is that not true. The main thing that income can come from is production income, and this does not become a factor till later in the game.

OK, the tax values aren't that special by colonial standards. But look at the goods! PE isn't massive in the early game, but it's still significant, especially if we start Far Eastern countries off at a higher tech level than Europe.

The problem I have with the AGCEEP set up is that there are only a couple of minor provinces off to the side that are actually open which makes the colonization scene rather dead if you ask me. (there are 4 or 5 side island open) Right now there are 3 powers (from Asia) that we are looking at have compete for this area. Each will have advantages and disadvantages from low base manpower and tax values to arriving later in the scene to having its homeland surrounded by hostile countries.

I think that if we balance out the countries that have a chance at colonizing the area, we can have a really nice conflict erupt around 1550 or so. Sure maybe a real major power will come out of this, but later on there could be some really nasty events for the winner.

But why must the islands be a colonial free-for-all? I don't know about gameplay, but unless we decide to have Aberrated demographics as well, having it all low-tax native provinces makes as much sense to me in terms of storyline as ditching the countries in India or SE Asia.

We could certainly open it up more than AGCEEP, eg by using fortified colonies, and by removing some of the less 'civilised' powers. But making eg most of Java 'terra nullius' just seems daft. I think we have to bear in mind that the local countries will be quite a different game for say Ceylon than they would be for the Netherlands: while a load of non-Christian minors would be prohibitively expensive to conquer as a Christian, a Buddhist power could simply diploannex them. We could even put in some inheritance events, if there's a reasonable storyline to go with them. I think the struggle for the archipelago should have more to it than seeing swarms of tiny ships head there from outside.

When we discuss colonisation, I think we have to be clear what is meant by it in real life (as opposed to EU2). I'll post something in the appropriate thread.

 

[unmerged(26209)]

I would like to see a khmer empire interested in colonies in RL Brunei/northern Borneo and/or Atjeh, as well as the peninsula of whats-its-name-again (the one with Singapore and half of Malaysia on it, below RL Thailand). In fact, I was rather thinking that the peninsula should fall early to the Khmer, as they supress the Thai and move southwards.
However, as with most abe, there will be alternative routes, and the khmer could chose to instead aim at Vietnam and China, taking a conquest route rather than a colonial one, however, that is for the SE Asia thread.

 

[Incompetent]

I would like to see a khmer empire interested in colonies in RL Brunei/northern Borneo and/or Atjeh, as well as the peninsula of whats-its-name-again (the one with Singapore and half of Malaysia on it, below RL Thailand). In fact, I was rather thinking that the peninsula should fall early to the Khmer, as they supress the Thai and move southwards.
However, as with most abe, there will be alternative routes, and the khmer could chose to instead aim at Vietnam and China, taking a conquest route rather than a colonial one, however, that is for the SE Asia thread.

That makes sense, but going south would still involve imperialism rather than mere settlement - or are you saying we should remove Malacca, Atjeh and Brunei to give Khmer a free run, and allow it to instantly convert the region to Khmer culture?

 

[unmerged(26209)]

That makes sense, but going south would still involve imperialism rather than mere settlement - or are you saying we should remove Malacca, Atjeh and Brunei to give Khmer a free run, and allow it to instantly convert the region to Khmer culture?

No, certainly not. Atjeh, Brunei and Malacca should still be there (or well, rather, they shouldn't since Islam never came to Indonesia as I undersand it, but anyway, you catch my drift). It should be imperialism, pure and simple, perhaps with the exception of Brunei, which could be left open for Khmer settlement.
As for khmer culture, I was thinking of a rather massive relocation of all Thai by the khmer from the northernmost Thai provinces, to make place for refugees from Angkor (which will be abandoned). This perhaps should lead to changing a few Malay provinces into Thai (as well as Thai into Khmer), but I suppose that this is the wrong topic once again?

I also purpose that one of the Chinese minors will settle the Phillipines, while another might go for imperializing (^^) in Indonesia.

 

[unmerged(33565)]

OK, the tax values aren't that special by colonial standards. But look at the goods! PE isn't massive in the early game, but it's still significant, especially if we start Far Eastern countries off at a higher tech level than Europe.

But why must the islands be a colonial free-for-all? I don't know about gameplay, but unless we decide to have Aberrated demographics as well, having it all low-tax native provinces makes as much sense to me in terms of storyline as ditching the countries in India or SE Asia.

We could certainly open it up more than AGCEEP, eg by using fortified colonies, and by removing some of the less 'civilised' powers. But making eg most of Java 'terra nullius' just seems daft. I think we have to bear in mind that the local countries will be quite a different game for say Ceylon than they would be for the Netherlands: while a load of non-Christian minors would be prohibitively expensive to conquer as a Christian, a Buddhist power could simply diploannex them. We could even put in some inheritance events, if there's a reasonable storyline to go with them. I think the struggle for the archipelago should have more to it than seeing swarms of tiny ships head there from outside.

When we discuss colonisation, I think we have to be clear what is meant by it in real life (as opposed to EU2). I'll post something in the appropriate thread.

I guess Ceylon will be entering this area in 2 different forms

1) Very early, talking 1450 to 1500. While it will have a massive lead, it will also have almost no homeland manpower, tax base or trade income. It will consist of just the 2 homeland island provinces and nothing else(not even a COT). It would be mainly looking to set up colonies to stop the overcrowding of its large homeland population. Later, with a more aggressive leadership, talking mid to late 1500, it can start to imperializing a little more as it gains more power.

2) Late talking 1550 or later. If it comes in at this time it will be established on the mainland and with more income. It will be all about imperialistic control and trade control. Maybe set up a colony or too, but it mostly about controlling the powers that are there.

I guess my main concern is the first track. I am trying to allow for several branches in its history (there is also a total land path that can also be selected), it causes this country to come into the area with different strengths. The 2nd one will be more then enough to hold its own, but the 1st one will defiantly need bases and income from the islands to be able to get going.

 

[unmerged(29318)]

For Aberration maybe you should think of Majapahit hindu kingdom( represented by MTR in AGCEEP) that ever dominated SE area including luzon and papua. before divided into many small kingdom . Rebuild they empire maybe. or about they rival budishm Srivijaya (represented u15 in AGceep) take back indochina again.

 

[Sleepyhead]

I'm just wondering, does it really need to be a big colonial empire in every part of the world?

Also will there be a change to the AI settings so they act as intented during various time frames? Are you guys going to use AI cheats so they'll be able to follow the human player?

Great mod btw.

 

[Incompetent]

I'm just wondering, does it really need to be a big colonial empire in every part of the world?

Nope, there will hopefully be some modest colonisers as well, and many parts of the world (eg the Caribbean) will be less dominated by colonialism than in vanilla.

Also will there be a change to the AI settings so they act as intented during various time frames?

Yes.

Are you guys going to use AI cheats so they'll be able to follow the human player?

Probably, but overt AI cheats will be made optional so that players can switch them off.

 

[Sleepyhead]

Nope, there will hopefully be some modest colonisers as well, and many parts of the world (eg the Caribbean) will be less dominated by colonialism than in vanilla.

Yes.

Probably, but overt AI cheats will be made optional so that players can switch them off.

Good to hear.