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Hartmann

Kaiser v.G.G. (abdicated)
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Oct 20, 2000
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  • Europa Universalis IV
1.07c is a major breakthrough with the relations/vassal problem gone and the driver fixes allowing many people to play the game with older system configs. :)

Question:What is the most serious bug left now?
Answer: The 'peace treaty bug'.

Almost every player will make the experience at one time or another, that despite he is soundly beaten, the AI surprisingly offers indemnities. Mostly one is dazzled for a moment but then happily accepts the offer and forgets about it again.
On a closer look, this incidents are happening far too often, especially when one also takes the AI vs. AI incidents into account. This bug was there from the start and we had some threads about it, where we piled up many weird and often downright silly peace treaty solutions.

Now, yesterday I played a 'hands off game' with 1.07c on highest speed til 1792. I don´t know, whether it was by chance, but in this game, the peace treaty bug occured all the time and the country most benefitting from it was Spain. Spain won 90% of her wars peace treaty wise, but was soundly beaten in at least 50%. Incidents took place all around the globe, but particularily in the Spanish lowlands. This is what happened there at least 5 times:

Hannover, Brandenburg and some other minors are at war with Spain. The minors conquer every single Spanish province in the Spanish lowland region and then happily pay indemnities (often 250 each in seperate peace treaties). On one occasion Brandenburg got a good leader and happened to occupy 5 Spanish provinces only to make a seperate peace treaty paying those 250 in indemnities to Spain. On another occasion shortly thereafte the same thing happened with Brandenburg having occupied 3 Spanish provinces.

Every country can suffer this weird bug, but it´s maybe a clue leading us to the cause, that it occured with SPAIN all the time in my last game. Spain, having conquered almost all of the Americas was REALLY big then. So maybe the relative size of the warring countries may play a role in the peace treaty resolutions? This also would match with what others have mentioned before, namely that Spain tends to refuse reasonable peace offers when beaten very often. If actually relative size of countries as a (hidden) variable goes into the peace treaty resolutions this could at least partially explain those weird incidents: As Spain is THAT big, other countries may be more likely to agree to an unfortunate peace even when having won a war star-wise. (The rationale behind such a variable may be, that a big country is more likely to turn the tide.)
The solution would be to tone down the effects of that relative size variable or even disable it all together.

But, as I said, the weird peace treaty bug can happen to any two countries, even those of roughly equal size. So other factors will probably be involved, too, and maybe relative size is just a katalysator.

I seriously think, that something should be done about this now. For me it has always been the only bug, that tended to downright frustrate me (especially when it occured a few times in a row thereby completely spoiling the whole simulation).

Hartmann
 
I'm signing the petition.. Fix the bug please!

/Johan, who'd had fixed it already if he knew what caused it in the code.
 
You may be onto something with this size thing, Hartmann... when I played the Hansa, I was allied with Sweden a lot of the time. They really made a royal mess in their peace treaties with Russia.

Sweden declared war on the Russians every few years, and the standard progression was almost always like this:

1. Swedes conquer Far Karelia.
2. Swedes conquer Ingermanland.
3. Swedes come a-knocking at the gates of Novgorod.
4. Sweden pays a 250 ducat indemnity to Russia to end the war.

By this time, Russia had conquered the Khanates and Sibir, and was colonizing Siberia, so their Empire was rapidly approaching hugeness.

[This message has been edited by Kekkonen (edited 16-02-2001).]
 
First of all, i am a nono in programming land, so i am really thankfull others are as creative as they are in making this game :)

But, cant it be as simple as:
- on demanding peace, check the relative gain compared to the territory size before the war started
- white peace when no gains
- money or at least one province for each enemy province conquered (or half the stars gained), even if the armies of the foe are huge
- up to full demand if the enemy is in war with several military alliances.....
- random gains now and then, to keep it unpredictable

At least it sounds simple, just a bit of coding here and there :)

Goodluck,
MMAI
 
I played France in 1.07b and was 'powermongering' so the all my neighbours declared war and really got me down, when suddenly the minor nations offered peace and 250...I thought that they got problems with revolts or something, but now I think it was that 'bug', so I agree in reducing this effect!
 
Originally posted by Tuenne:
Hi Hartmann!!

What 'older system configs' do you mean?

Well, the readme says:

*The game should now work even if your soundcard drivers are not installed.
* A system code which made the game not working on older win95 systems have been fixed.

Patric and Johan could surely provide more specific info.

Hartmann
 
Well, the readme says:

*The game should now work even if your soundcard drivers are not installed.
* A system code which made the game not working on older win95 systems have been fixed.
Patric and Johan could surely provide more specific info.
Hartmann

Patches 1.06-1.07b didn´t work on older Win95 Systems like mine. 1.07c does (Thanks again!).
Also im my recent game I´ve noticed this weird peace treaties only concerning minors against England and Austria - the real majors, the others I´ve degraded including a (very big) Spain payed dearly against e.g. Brandenburg and Genua.
Is that your experience too?
 
Originally posted by Lucullus:

Also im my recent game I´ve noticed this weird peace treaties only concerning minors against England and Austria - the real majors, the others I´ve degraded including a (very big) Spain payed dearly against e.g. Brandenburg and Genua.
Is that your experience too?

Nope, but it indeed seems to be somewhat random and different in each game (which is also the reason why Johan has such a hard time tracking it down). In my latest game Spain fooled Brandenburg into paying indemnities all the time. The only power, who wasn´t fooled was in fact France...

Hartmann
 
Originally posted by Tuenne:
Hi Hartmann!!

What 'older system configs' do you mean?

Mine! ;) Patches 1.02 and up didn't work because I use a relic version of Win95. Now everything work again. :)

Also, (not my problem, though), a few problems with older device drivers seem to have been solved.



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Attrition is not a strategy. Attrition is the apparent lack of strategy. (Sun Tzu)
 
I agree, this should be fixed asap, hope Johan finds the cause and a way to fix it.

There are other important issues though, that can spoil the game.
Random conquistadors/explorers, that don't die after some years of service, but just live on and on (I've got two for over 80 years now), this really spoils all the effort in the leader project to get things right.
I donot oppose the appearance of random conquistadors (although I'd rather do without them than leave it as it is), but the way it is now, with endless availability instead of just a few years and a higher chance of failure, is really taking the fun out a little. Remember that in history there were many adventurers that tried to be conquistadors, but the only ones represented in history books are the ones that succeeded.
(I don't think this one has made it to Hartmann buglist yet)

Another important thing that annoys me is the apparent lack of understanding that the AI has of attrition. This is not just painful when you ally with an AI country and get involved in a war, but it also can cause unjustified defeat of an AI nation in a war with another country.
AI countries should really make a better judgement of how large an army to send where. Very often all of the effort of an AI controlled country/alliance seems to concentrate on just one province, pouring in huge amounts of troops, far beyond the number of troops that can be supported in the province. This leads to horrendous attrition losses.
It seems the AI should consider at least 3 factors when deciding how many troops to send into a single province:
a) strength of enemy troops present in the province or nearby provinces;
b) strength of the fortress;
c) supply limit for the province, taking into account any allied forces already present.
I'd think this is a fairly easy set of if- then statements to include in the code (very sorry if I'm wrong, just know a little bit of basic, no real programming skills)





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greetings, Oranje
Link to my EU fanpage, includes a FAQ section

Common sense is the set of prejudices acquired at age eighteen.
Albert Einstein
 
Originally posted by Patric:
I'm for it as well... FIX IT NOW!!!


Patric


Ok, send me the source code and I'll have a looksie ;)

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/ Stefan Huszics EU FAQ
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I agree, this is a big problem (and as others get fixed, it becomes more & more important). Johan, does this mean you're still looking for the source?

Oranje, I don't think we should take away random explorers (I know this was not your main suggestion, but you alluded to it). That is something that makes the game interesting - the biggest colonial powers have them anyway, so the fact that others can get random ones are helpful in creating variety in games. Now ones that live for 80 years is another matter....

P.S. I have Winblows 95 and fortunately all the patches have worked for me. (Maybe it's having the newer device drivers & DirectX that has made it work.)

[This message has been edited by Tom (edited 17-02-2001).]
 
Umm *cough*, the 'relative size' theory is refuted. I gathered contradicting evidence yesterday:

Austria had inherited Hungary (the very first time I saw them getting hold on Hungary since 1.04 btw). This means, they were quite big now compared to Bohemia, right?
O.k., after some years they went to the inevitable war with Bohemia and because they were well prepared and also had a leader, they conquered ALL Bohemian provinces. I was expecting annexation, BUT: The Austrian emperor must have realized the immorality of his deeds and payed 250 ducats to Bohemia in indemnities... :(

So it follows, that relative size seems not to be a crucial factor when it comes to the question of who is actually most often BENEFITING from this bug.

Hartmann

P.S.: Hmm, I think as long as this bug isn´t tracked down and fixed, I´ll concentrate more on scenario making and the leader project instead of playing ...



[This message has been edited by Hartmann (edited 17-02-2001).]
 
I encountered the same with Spain several times. Especially when it was at war with France, the Frenchmen took about 5 Spanish Provinces and paid Spain in the end 250 Gold. Also, I still do not like the fact that a colonial province with 100 inhabitants is worth as many stars as a main land one in Europe. That looks pretty strange to me.