The nava doctrinel tech tree

[datachild]

Waiting for the new patch to begin a new game, I watched the tech tree more closely, evaluating my plans to rule the oceans as Germany. My first plan for this domination, the carrier vessel. Will Germany be able to comped with the USA in this area? I compared the max min position values of "mobile warfare" with "combined land/sea" and... let go of these carrier plans as quick as possible. USA can reach a bonus in Max/Min positioning of +94/+50, Germany +32/+20 even if she takes the air supremacy path. That means, that Germany can even under optimal circumstances not outmaneuver a US-Carrier fleet that is under the worst circumstances.
Now the problem: Even if Germany would try to build a surface fleet and research her according doctrines it wouldn't stand a change against USA or UK. I'm not talking about a smaller difference in positioning, that might be counterbalanced by higher number of forces, but a crushing inferiority for the big vessels(not only carrier, also BB,BC,CA). Only screens can reach nearly the level of their allies pendants(CL USA +100/+54, Germany +90/+46).
Well there is one exception, the submarine. USA can achieve a bonus in positioning of +54/+26, Germany +78/+46). That (maybe even a little bit less) is btw the difference I would have expected for a naval oriented Germany that relies on carriers and other big vessels (of course vice versa, where the USA has the bedder values).

To compare the difference in the land doctrine tree. With the doctrines where you have to choose the path only, Germany can achieve an organization/moral bonus of +70/+44, UK and US +62/+44 and +41/+79 SOV. It seems more balanced to me and at the same time represents the "experience" of the different countries in that field.
Oh did I mentioned that the organization/moral bonus for naval units is USA +59/+50 and Germany +31/+62.

The purpose of this listing (though it may contain errors) is to substantiate my request for a more balanced naval tech tree. Maybe I'm wrong, in which case I would like to know the benefit of the current setup.
I would really much like a setup like the air doctrine tech tree. Here you can specialize every field all the time. The limitation is the time to research not opposed doctrines (one exception). However every nation that does specialize has the same values.

 

[quintelosky]

Good analysis

 

[Moll]

I think you made a mistake, datachild. Or i missunderstood something. I´ve researched all naval doctrines (except the post war ones), which increase the positioning. And my numbers look a bit different.
With Limited Off. Fleet the Carriers could have +2/+6, but i went for subs.

 

[datachild]

Good analysis

Thx, I hope this will make the game even bedder .

Yesterday I watched the doctrine part more closely. The result is an excel table listing the boni of the different doctrine-paths. A second excel file has some suggestions for a more balanced approach. The resulting modded naval_doctrines_tech.txt is also in the rar archive.

Most changes are in the "Combined Land/Sea" part, since this doctrine was greatly inferior to the "mobile Warfare" part (look it up in the excel file).

My suggestion to the developers would be either to:
1.) adjust the different paths of the naval doctrine tech tree to an equal level. If somehow useful I gladly offer you these files to include/build upon.
2.) reshuffle the doctrine tech tree in different areas that don't exclude each other. Eg. areas could be doctrines related to: Carrier, Big ships, small ships, subs, Tps. Most of the technologies I encountered can be assigned to one of these 5 areas. Techs that don't fit could be split up or merged with other techs.

EDIT: The excel files may contain errors (it was late) and are not absolute. There are still some number (like behavior in bad weather) that are missing. As far as I can see they tend to favor "Sea-Control" "Decisive Battle" and "Mobile Warfare"

 

[datachild]

I think you made a mistake, datachild. Or i missunderstood something. I´ve researched all naval doctrines (except the post war ones), which increase the positioning. And my numbers look a bit different.
With Limited Off. Fleet the Carriers could have +2/+6, but i went for subs.

I only counted the numbers for techs in subtrees that excluded each other. That means e.g. no naval intelligence, etc. Additionally I think there is a basic value > 0 at the start, even for a nation without naval doctrines.
To compare, for carrier you have atm a value of 40<>70. If you had played the USA and researched as far your value would be something around 75<>110. That means even if you get a carrierfleet of the US by total surprise (position value of 75) you would still be inferior even in the best of circumstances (position value of 70).

What I'm interested in is what are the consequences for the gameplay. Did you ever encounter forces of equal size and composition of the US and win the fight?

EDIT: Just compare the different doctrines in game or in my excel file (and report errors ) and you will know what I meant.

 

[Moll]

For the moment I´ve nothing to report. The US Navy still fights the Imperial Japanese Navy...and my naval forces consist of some submarines and light units to protect my transports.
But heavy units are in production as the occupation of england and the USA can´t be done with subs. So hopefully i can tell you something tomorrow.

 

[tigeriii]

I only counted the numbers for techs in subtrees that excluded each other. That means e.g. no naval intelligence, etc. Additionally I think there is a basic value > 0 at the start, even for a nation without naval doctrines.
To compare, for carrier you have atm a value of 40<>70. If you had played the USA and researched as far your value would be something around 75<>110. That means even if you get a carrierfleet of the US by total surprise (position value of 75) you would still be inferior even in the best of circumstances (position value of 70).

What I'm interested in is what are the consequences for the gameplay. Did you ever encounter forces of equal size and composition of the US and win the fight?

EDIT: Just compare the different doctrines in game or in my excel file (and report errors ) and you will know what I meant.

All I can say is thank you Datachild for the excel spreadsheet. Granted I like numbers and seeing the doctrines spread out like that makes it even more frustrating to figure out what to take and what not to take. Seeing your results Germany has no hope vs the US let alone UK. Even with Z-plan I will switch to subs and not build a surface fleet because it looks impossible to destroy the Allies head on.

Now that you did such an awesome job with Naval any experience or suggestions to other doctrines or preferences in the tech tree that swing the tide in favor of one over the other?

I just started new 1933 game with Germany and there are few areas I would like opinions on what to research or the benefits/drawbacks of one tech over the other, especially in Supply. Do I take "Dispersion" or "Concentration"? Do I choose "Independent Air Force" or "Tactical Air Support"? Just a few areas that I am very GREY in and would love to hear others comments on. Thanks again Datachild awesome work!

 

[datachild]

All I can say is thank you Datachild for the excel spreadsheet.

I'm glad if they are of use to someone . However I did not look into the other branches, so I honestly don't know. I flashed over the land doctrine tree to see if Germany has a superior land doctrine to counterbalance the naval tree, but it seems they are bedder balanced than the naval tree. Maybe if I've time over the weekend I will watch them more closely.

 

[mikey1871]

+1