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DoomBunny

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There has been some discussion of the topic recently, and as I was bored, I decided to make some graphs illustrating this particularly fascinating part of history. Aside from providing final proof that I will forever be wholly unattractive to the female sex, these graphs are pretty, and present some interesting visual observations about the topic.

To offer some explanation (also included in the graphs), I have divided ships into those laid down, and those actually commissioned, at the date in question. Ships which are laid down are those which are not yet completed, but which exist as more than napkinwaffe (i.e., have moved beyond being an unrealized order or a sketch done by a member of the naval staff during a particularly harrowing trip the bathroom induced by eating a dodgy kebab). Ships are counted as commissioned when they are commissioned... obviously. I have not included losses in the graph, as the aim is to show naval building programmes rather than actual strength.

Fv2Lwbw.png


This first graph shows the relative strengths of the British and German Dreadnought fleets during the period. From this, one can draw several interesting observations. The arms race develops from a relatively equal footing in 1905/6, with both powers keeping pace through until 1910; at this point, Germany thinks better of the idea and substantially slows her building programme, whilst Britain thunders on ahead until easing off the steam in 1914. Really, 1908 is the key year; until that point German expansion is closing with British, and the gap narrows until the two meet, after this the British pick up their programme and the gap again widens.

ov21wxX.png


The second graph is similar to the first, but includes Battlecruisers alongside normal Dreadnoughts. The main point of interest here is that the Battlecruiser race continues far longer than the Dreadnought race; both fleets continue to expand into the war. This also shifts the point at which Germany shifts away from matching Britain; instead of a sharp constriction after 1910 one instead sees a more gradual gap opening after 1908 (as per above). The other point to be raised is that the British commit substantially more to Battlecruisers than the Germans do.

Vzwz3p5.png


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The last two graphs compare all the major powers of the world in the period (plus Spain). I could have added the South Americans, but chose not to as the graph was already rather cluttered. It is interesting to observe just how far ahead Britain and Germany are from everyone else, even with the inclusion of the USA. Other interesting points include the relative time lag between Britain, Germany, and the USA, and everyone else; these three powers start earlier, expand at a greater rate, and reach a greater strength than many of the other powers would have managed even if their fleets were combined. One can also detect some of the major rivalries; Britain and Germany, the USA and Japan, and Austria-Hungary and Italy. Russia's rapid and perhaps somewhat over-ambitious expansion in 1910-12 is another interesting moment.

It is also worth commenting on the effect of war; rather than accelerating naval building programmes, in many cases war stinted them. With demand for so much material elsewhere (ammunition and artillery mainly), the battleline generally seems to have taken a back seat; the long building times involved in ships likely also plays a role. The effect of this is particularly seen in the German, Russian, French, and Austro-Hungarian navies, with large section of the battleline laid down but never completed. In the latter three cases, this number amounted to perhaps 33-50%+ of planned strength, in Germany the effect was also severe with several ships cancelled, though the size of the existing fleet cushions the percentage impact.
 
It is interesting to observe just how far ahead Britain and Germany are from everyone else, even with the inclusion of the USA.

If you include pre-dreads USN would be larger than German navy from at least 1907 to 1910. It was also being discussed as such by British politicans in late '00, so they at least were not omitting the military value of the older ships. In any case, and as far as I can gather, the reason they wanted to avoid arms race with US was because they did not ultimately see it as probable enemy and such race was seen as wasteful (supposedly there had been a strategic study sometime before WW1 that concluded Britain could no longer win a war on America, but that does not seem to have been such a huge consideration in face of it's improbability).
 
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If you include pre-dreads USN would be larger than German navy from at least 1907 to 1910. It was also being discussed as such by British politicans in late '00, so they at least were not omitting the military value of the older ships. In any case, and as far as I can gather, the reason they wanted to avoid arms race with US was because they did not ultimately see it as probable enemy and such race was seen as wasteful (supposedly there had been a strategic study sometime before WW1 that concluded Britain could no longer win a war on America, but that does not seem to have been such a huge consideration in face of it's improbability).
Germany 24 pre-dreads, US 22+3 (Indiana) pre-dreads.
 
If you include pre-dreads USN would be larger than German navy from at least 1907 to 1910..
If you include passenger liners and fishing trawlers is shifts even more in favor of the US.
 
Germany 24 pre-dreads, US 22+3 (Indiana) pre-dreads.

I have 41 total capital ships for USN and 35 for Germany by end of 1910, including armoured cruisers. Will need to double check since they are from table in reference work, might be including some odd stuff.

Also: "The United States bas a powerful fleet, and if you count vessels by noses, and noses alone, no doubt she would at present come second amongst the navies of the world, our own fleet would come first. She would come second, because she has actually more battleships at this moment than Germany, though we ourselves have a great deal more than the two combined." PM Asquith, 1909

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1909/may/26/naval-defence-two-power-standard

(Edit) 41 and 35 seem to check out. They do not include those late gen monitors or German coast defense ships or such. One class of weaker ACs seems excluded from both.

If you include passenger liners and fishing trawlers is shifts even more in favor of the US.

Both sides had four early dreadnoughts at this date. In addition Germany had the intermediate Blücher. So yes, the older ships are very relevant.
 
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I'm not sure about pre-dreadnoughts. However, one could certainly alter the numbers a bit if semi-dreadnoughts like the Satsumas were included in the total. I didn't include normal pre-dreadnoughts however as, generally speaking, they were probably too slow and under-armed to really go toe to toe with a dreadnought; though I guess the question of at what point one replaces the battleline as a whole is a personal/professional one.
 
If you include pre-dreads USN would be larger than German navy from at least 1907 to 1910.

This matters even more for the French because of the Danton-class which was built after Dreadnought. While battleship sizes had remained pretty consistent for 15 years before dreadnought, Danton was a pretty big jump in displacement just like Dreadnought was. It didn't have an all-big gun layout however so it wasn't counted as a dreadnought. If you count these 6 battleships then 1910 isn't when the French entered the naval race, it's when they clearly could no longer keep up.

From my discussions on the Rule The Waves forums I have the impression that semidreadnoughts are unappreciated at first glance. In terms of gun layouts I think most prefer predread->Dreadnought->all centerline while I think the better choice is predread-Danton->Bayern->all centerline. You can start building your Danton-style ship before you have research for the third gun elevator and you can start building your Bayern-style ship before you have research for superimposed turrets.
 
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The Danton class was a victim of the French inability to get designs built and into service in a reasonable time. Other nations (like Britain and Japan) were edging toward the all-big-gun-ship by increasing the size of the secondary batteries, and the Danton class was actually a part of this movement. Dreadnought (more properly the Cuniberti-type all-big-gun ship) should have marked an end to semi-dreadnoughts, but France decided to complete the Danton's anyway. They should be counted as capital ships, I think.

In Rule the Waves I've gotten good service from my semi-dreadnoughts. Later in the game you can deploy secondary gunnery directors, and that gives the old 'semi' wagons an extended life.

For anyone who doesn't know of it, go check out Rule the Waves - it's the best independent game, and the best naval game, I've ever come across.
 
The Danton class was a victim of the French inability to get designs built and into service in a reasonable time. Other nations (like Britain and Japan) were edging toward the all-big-gun-ship by increasing the size of the secondary batteries, and the Danton class was actually a part of this movement. Dreadnought (more properly the Cuniberti-type all-big-gun ship) should have marked an end to semi-dreadnoughts, but France decided to complete the Danton's anyway. They should be counted as capital ships, I think.

In Rule the Waves I've gotten good service from my semi-dreadnoughts. Later in the game you can deploy secondary gunnery directors, and that gives the old 'semi' wagons an extended life.

For anyone who doesn't know of it, go check out Rule the Waves - it's the best independent game, and the best naval game, I've ever come across.

Being fair to the French, there were a lot of ships on the same pattern. Even the Royal Navy had the Lord Nelson class; completed after Dreadnought but outdated by its standards.
 
@DoomBunny - yes, I quite agree. There wasn't anything wrong with the Danton class per se - they stack up very well against the semi-dreadnoughts of any other nation. It's just that French design, finance and construction times were extremely long by British, German and American standards. Although it concerns WW2, I recommend a look at O'Hara and Dickson's "On Seas Contested" for a look at the French Navy's bureaucracy, equipment and materiel.

The Lord Nelson class was held up because Fisher poached their 12" turrets for Dreadnought to speed up her construction. Gun and turret design and production were frequently a bottleneck, moreso than the hull and engines. Japan had similar problems with gun/turret delivery around the same time, so Aki and Satsuma *which would have had 12x12" guns) were redesigned to be semi-dreadnoughts with 4x12" and 8x10".

If you count these 6 battleships then 1910 isn't when the French entered the naval race, it's when they clearly could no longer keep up.
@keynes2.0 - Didn't give this proper attention before. I think that is a perceptive point. A lot of countries developed financial problems from, say, 1906 to 1914. Britain was able to fund her fleet but didn't like having to run expenditures up so high; Germany borrowed so heavily that her naval construction was probably going to taper sharply after 1914 anyway (and her army wanted new artillery...). France was struggling to fund army and navy (which meant shorting the latter), and was loaning a lot of money to Russia in addition to laboring under the sort of governmental changes and instabilities that nightmares are made of. Still, the Entente relieved her navy of having to compete in the Atlantic and made her largest naval rivals Italy and Austria, which had to have been a relief.

I don't remember seeing you post over at Rtw - under another name?

In reference to the earlier conversation about the US Navy, they were discovering (the hard way) that designing and building large warships is very complicated and difficult. The first few classes of battleships weren't worth keeping in service. They did build some nice armored cruisers though, and the later battleships are quite nice - the ones without secondary turrets tacked onto the top of the mains. It is worth noting that the US and Japan would both have been credited with the invention of the all-big-gun-ship had Britain not pulled out all stops to get Dreadnought in the water first. Both the South Carolina class and (I think) the Aki/Satsuma class were designed and maybe laid down before Dreadnought.[/Quote][/quote]
 
In reference to the earlier conversation about the US Navy, they were discovering (the hard way) that designing and building large warships is very complicated and difficult.

To put some context in those, they followed on previous post of mine in another thread where I said US naval buildup caused Britain to re-appraise (and ultimately, abandon) the two power standard.
 
I don't remember seeing you post over at Rtw - under another name?

I am a cat in a box.

The Lord Nelson class was held up because Fisher poached their 12" turrets for Dreadnought to speed up her construction. Gun and turret design and production were frequently a bottleneck, moreso than the hull and engines. Japan had similar problems with gun/turret delivery around the same time, so Aki and Satsuma *which would have had 12x12" guns) were redesigned to be semi-dreadnoughts with 4x12" and 8x10".

This is why I think it would be really interesting if a game simulate limited stocks of high caliber guns and high quality engines.
 
@keynes2.0 - yes, permitting a player to assemble a ship from components like structural materials (hull), armor, turrets, guns, fire control, engines... perhaps a logistical nightmare but I'd love to try it. Fire control, turret hardware and guns are the most serious bottlenecks, I think.

@Antediluvian Monster - Britain had been able to hold a 'two-power' standard for a long time because no other navy really tried to challenge her. But after 1890 the US (as you say), France, Russia and Germany all began major building programs. The cost of keeping a fleet twice the size of any two possible opponents led to some serious diplomacy - Britain tried approaching Germany first (Joseph Chamberlain) and then mended fences with France, Russia and the US. I do not think Germany saw that coming, but it was an entirely logical diplomatic response. The British Empire was (I think) predicated on being able to defend its possessions at little cost. And there are arguments about whether the Empire was profitable or not, but once rival navies began to rise, diplomacy was the cheaper alternative to trying to out-build Germany AND the US.

So - TLDR - I agree LOL.