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Or they found remnant populations that survived an oddly non-nuclear WW3 and nursed us back to health.
Then kept nursing us forever.
I was going to say the same thing. That is a UI issue rather than a rounding one.
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Even current Earth population is unsustainable so the reduction seems much more plausible in the future
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It’s possible, for sure.
The UN’s low end projection for 2100 has the global population dip to 7 billion.
Dropping even further to 5 billion a hundred years later is easy enough to headcanon. Not sure how likely I think that is myself, but it’s fair enough.
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Figured I'd come back to this now that everyone, myself included, is feeling a bit less rowdy.
Even if we look at the most straightforward interpretation of "Meanwhile we lost tons of functionality, traits affecting more than one job" it's just flat not true. There are still traits that affect more than one job - strong increases the efficiency of all workers, high efficiency processors affect everyone, Intelligent affects all three researcher types, rangers, and zoo keepers, and the toxic god guys are affected by both intelligent and bureaucrats. There's also absolutely nothing preventing the addition of a trait that directly boosts two jobs - here, I'll write one:
Code:
trait_blood_from_a_stone = {
cost = 2
category = normal
species_possible_add = {
can_add_genetic_traits = yes
}
species_possible_remove = {
can_remove_beneficial_genetic_traits = yes
}
species_possible_merge_remove = {
always = yes
}
allowed_archetypes = { BIOLOGICAL LITHOID }
tags = { organic positive pop_output mineral food}
modifier = {
miner_jobs_bonus_workforce_mult = 0.15
farmer_jobs_bonus_workforce_mult = 0.15
}
slave_cost = {
energy = 500
}
assembly_score = {
modifier = {
add = 1.5
from = {
or = {
has_mining_designation = yes
has_farming_designation = yes
}
}
}
modifier = {
add = 0.5
from = { has_rural_designation = yes }
}
}
}I jumped on this phrase because the developers switched all the traits away from boosting individual resources across some jobs to boosting every single resource generated by individual jobs (and jobs that inherit from those jobs), and added side-resource producing buildings or job swaps to every 3.14 mainstream economy mono-output job. Describing traits not affecting directly-referenced jobs as an "oversight" when that's the core design of the system and they added a bunch of stuff to leverage and compensate for it in the obvious main economy edge cases is... it's not a productive conversation starter. You corrected someone for misstating the problem, but in doing so accepted their core premise that there must be some central flaw or functionality gap in the system requiring a sweeping reconstruction to resolve. Resort Workers requiring Traditionalist to get their unity boosts is not a feature to restore. "That's not true" is a perfectly good response to an obviously flawed assumption because then we can move past the detraction and look at the actual oversights.
Plural.
Because their are some.
But they're not one huge oversight with the core system. They're individual jobs that are not getting full advantage of the new, superior functionality.
If you dig through the job system you'll see that most civic jobs inherit from other jobs that themselves have a base trait. Hence the Resort Workers comment - they inherit from Entertainers. But there's a bunch of individual civic jobs such as necro apprentices, artificers, and so on, that produce previously boostable resources but inherit from jobs with no associated traits. They're the exceptions that prove the rule. You don't need to "fix" this by trying to shove half of the old setup sideways into and over the new one, you fix it by adding traits that boost these jobs, or buffing the jobs themselves, or adding additional inheritance to the jobs so they pull in other traits, or making a dev post saying "they're already too good stop being greedy".
If your first reaction is to loudly and vocally default to the entire system being broken then there's not only no actionable info there, but you actively drown out the people trying to bring up specific, actionable examples of jobs that were overlooked. Worst case scenario they actually do slap in the "Obvious quick fix" and we're back to broken, convoluted job assignment logic and Risa being staffed entirely by RETVRN politicians.
E: and the best part about all this is that I don't even like the purely single job traits. I disliked them as single resource traits in 3.14 more. I think every trait should affect every pop it's on in some manner.
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The real worrying bit is that as soon as the game starts and the robots suddenly want humans to start having kids again they just... do.
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That's cool and all, but what trait do I now put on my bio-trophies to make them make more unity like Traditional used to? Is that not a loss of functionality?
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Three posts above this one.
E: so with that context I answer your question with a question; which trait or traits would you like to be the trait(s) you put on biotrophies to boost their Unity? In the old system or a kludgey return to the same we're be forced to traditionalists. The increased functionality of the new framework allows for the devs to pick pretty much any of them. Or maybe biotrophies just need to get +1 base unity instead of forcing a formulaic species build for all optimal rogue servitor starts.
Or in theory they could get boosted by all of them. Farmers, Miners, Traders... it's all just larping.
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i do actually LOVE the new traits.
example:
Old miner trait: boosted minerals
New miner trait: boosts the efficiency of miner jobs, which means i have more productive scrap miners on shattered ring, which means more alloys and not just more minerals
if i really want to quintuple down on scrap miners like i used to in the old days, just to be quirky and lean into the roleplay and never restore the ring segments, i absolutely can, only now it's WAY more out of them. late game having even more minerals from my scrapminers made them LESS useful instead of more. now more efficiency from my scrapminers is ALWAYS useful because it just keeps increasing the alloys from that job.
similarly, if you wanted to boost science from your weird world that gives physics from energy which you found, you don't NEED to add intelligent on the pops on that planet, simply increase job efficiency for energy technicians and BAM, more physics from the special modified energy jobs on that planet granted by that planet modifier. which frees me to pick OTHER traits if i wish, like docile or whatnot.
example:
Old miner trait: boosted minerals
New miner trait: boosts the efficiency of miner jobs, which means i have more productive scrap miners on shattered ring, which means more alloys and not just more minerals
if i really want to quintuple down on scrap miners like i used to in the old days, just to be quirky and lean into the roleplay and never restore the ring segments, i absolutely can, only now it's WAY more out of them. late game having even more minerals from my scrapminers made them LESS useful instead of more. now more efficiency from my scrapminers is ALWAYS useful because it just keeps increasing the alloys from that job.
similarly, if you wanted to boost science from your weird world that gives physics from energy which you found, you don't NEED to add intelligent on the pops on that planet, simply increase job efficiency for energy technicians and BAM, more physics from the special modified energy jobs on that planet granted by that planet modifier. which frees me to pick OTHER traits if i wish, like docile or whatnot.
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I do not care what the trait is, as long as it exists. The relationship between the flavor text of traits and their in-game effects is already so tenuous, so suspension-of-disbelief straining, that you could put it on Noxious and I would use it without blinking (clearly they're like pugs, so hideous they wrap around to cute).
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biotrophies are no longer effected by traditional? there must be a job efficiency trait on them. would be hilarious if it turned out to be very strong lol.
edit: no actually aquatic only effects basic resources, whoops. i wish they would just allow biotrophies to count under the jobswap rules so they could benefit from traditional. BUT, instead of thinking of it as a negative, you could think of it as "now I can focus on docile, conservationist, rapid breeders, communal, etc..." more biotrophies will just be better than trying to buff the job.
Is it that you want there to exist a trait that you put onto biotrophies to boost their unity, or is it that you want optimally built biotrophies to output the same unity as before and you're not pushed about the route?
Would +0.1 base unity work? Or a building that provides benefits + a biotrophy efficiency boost? I'd prefer those personally since that allows for biotrophy traits to be more freedom. Or would something like "biotrophies gain +3% productivity per trait point used" work for you? I have no idea if the last one is possible BTW.
Is it the act of choosing a unity boosting trait over a housing or cg reducing trait that you want back? That's extremely valid. Would a policy or living standards to swap between +output vs -upkeep do or does it need to be a trait? Would a trait called "coddled" that boosts biotrophies that's only available to rogue servitor empires do?
(These aren't rhetorical or sarcastic questions, nor am I trying to trip you up into giving a "wrong" answer).
The genuine near-zero effort option is to make biotrophies key off Charismatic.
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While I am not the original party you are asking, I do think you are missing the point a tad.
The point was not that there is no thing in general that boosts Biotrophies specifically. The point was that the this rework made traits so incredibly specific that it makes them much less interesting.
If a Trait boosted Unity, then it boosted Unity regardless of what the Job that produced Unity actually was. Which made it generally applicable.
Whereas a Trait that boosts Entertainers specifically is much less interesting, because, well, one may not use any Entertainers. Repeat for any Trait that boosts specific Jobs: if one does not use that specific Job, then it is worthless. And thus these traits are much less interesting.
If a Trait is tied to a specific 1-3 Jobs, it is not very interesting because it is not at all flexible. Even Researcher-jobs boosting Traits: sure, they will boost Researcher jobs. But if my Technicians start to produce Research, it won't affect that. And that sucks, because it'd be an unconventional application for the Trait.
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That might be your complaint but it's an assumption that it's also their complaint, and part of the reasons for asking those questions was to drill down further into their complaint to find the core complaint.
Which is not me saying you're wrong to have that as a complaint yourself. Far from it. You have a very clear, very specific, very well articulated complaint. I absolutely agree that it's fun to find cool combos and get stuff you're not "supposed" to and get wide scale utility from trait picks:
Where we disagree is that I never thought traits boosting resource production was actually very good for this. Realistically we're still looking at each one only boosting two or three jobs (how many mineral, energy, or food producing jobs are there?). The actually "discoverable" combos are also usually worse than ignoring them; If you have a planet in 3.14 that adds +1 engineering to technician jobs then intelligent technicians are losing ~1.2 energy for 0.1 engineering (trust me that's a bad deal) and definitely not worth eating double points to get both. You'd probably get more putting those two points into housing and cg reduction, which is saying something. I would very much like the +XX% traits to work the way you're describing, but adding back in narrow +XX% resource bonuses is restoring a wonkier version of an already wonky way of doing it.
My personal preference would be for every one of those traits to have a secondary benefit. An example would be something like adding +15% productivity to farmer jobs and +0.25 food production to non-farmer jobs so an intelligent Agrarian researcher is generating +10% research and 0.275 food, and even your amenity generators would get benefits from a +25% food planet. Or getting a happiness boost per farm district even if they're not working it themselves. Not exactly those but you get the idea.
E: Or heck, for Agrarian you could add a 10% efficiency boost to all non-farmer jobs but at the cost of +0.3 pop food upkeep. You're better off swapping them out for the bespoke +15% traits but it's still a flat boost. Do something else for industrious and flip them around for lithoids.
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Largely agreed.
This game has a lot of Traits that are borderline irrelevant because of how incredibly specific the conditions for them to have an impact is. Which is very much not interesting. And thus most specific Traits having a minor general applicability would do wonders.
I mean, look at Resilient: What kind of an irrelevant bonus is specifically Defensive Army damage? Would it have killed anyone if it also gave something like +5% Habitability, so that is not completely irrelevant 99.9% of the time? :b
This game has a lot of Traits that are borderline irrelevant because of how incredibly specific the conditions for them to have an impact is. Which is very much not interesting. And thus most specific Traits having a minor general applicability would do wonders.
I mean, look at Resilient: What kind of an irrelevant bonus is specifically Defensive Army damage? Would it have killed anyone if it also gave something like +5% Habitability, so that is not completely irrelevant 99.9% of the time? :b
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I love the fact that the new race traits are worth a damn now and stay relevant for longer, instead of being something that can be eclypsed with a low level tech or a couple of traditions like they were before. I just don't like how narrow they are.
The problem with the current racial traits is the very same problem of district specializations: The foundations of that game system are solid, but developers have to "play more" with the concept and develop it so it can become fully realized instead of implementing it on an unfinished, compromised state. They need more time to be designed on a paper sheet, so to speak, and expand on it.
I think that the current problem of race traits that affect one job and one job only would be solved if, instead of affecting a job or series of jobs, they would affect a job category or "job label" instead, where each job has at least one label. Civic-specific or special jobs could have more than one, thus benefiting from many traits at once. Say, priest output getting boosted both by the "traditional" and "charismatic" traits.
Something along these lines:
It would solve most of my problems with the current system.
The problem with the current racial traits is the very same problem of district specializations: The foundations of that game system are solid, but developers have to "play more" with the concept and develop it so it can become fully realized instead of implementing it on an unfinished, compromised state. They need more time to be designed on a paper sheet, so to speak, and expand on it.
I think that the current problem of race traits that affect one job and one job only would be solved if, instead of affecting a job or series of jobs, they would affect a job category or "job label" instead, where each job has at least one label. Civic-specific or special jobs could have more than one, thus benefiting from many traits at once. Say, priest output getting boosted both by the "traditional" and "charismatic" traits.
Something along these lines:
JOB LABELS
Agrarian (farmer, angler, pearl diver, wrangler, zookeper, hunter, warden)
Extractive (miner, scrap miner, rare resource miner, angler)
Technical (technician, artisan, artificier, augmentor)
Physical (miner, farmer, technician, soldier, enforcer, duelist, knight, labourer, hunter, toiler)
Social (entertainer, priest, high priest, bio-trophy, storm dancer, spa attendant, prosperity preacher, duelist, educator, knight, squire, telepath, merchant)
Administrative (bureucrat, politician, knight, priest, high priest, acolyte, noble, skywatcher, memorialist, science director, telepath, Executive)
Knowledge (physicist, engineer, biologist, science director, medical worker, archeo-engineer, educator, knight, astral researcher, skywatcher, memorialist, telepath)
Commercial (trader, merchant, prosperity preacher, Executive, pearl diver, artificier, cybernetic merchant)
Engineering (engineer, roboticist, cybernetic merchant, archeo-engineer, artificier)
Sociology (biologist, medical worker, spa attendant, wrangler, zookeeper, warden, educator)
Physicist (physicist, astral researcher, storm dancer, telepath, astrometeorologist, astral researcher)
Fabrile (metallurgist, artisan, rare resource syntetizer, catalyzer, artificier, roboticist)
LABEL-BOOSTING TRAITS
Ingenious (1): +10% job efficiency to technical jobs
Industrious (1): +10% job efficiency to extractive jobs
Agrarian (1): +10% job efficiency to agrarian jobs
Strong (1): +5% job efficiency to physical jobs, +20% army damage
Very strong (3): +10% job efficiency to physical jobs, +5% slave strata job efficiency, +50% army damage, +15% XP gain to commanders
Traditional (2): +10% job efficiency in administrative jobs, +15% XP gain to officials
Charismatic (2): +10% job efficiency to social jobs, +30 opinion from regular empires if present on the empire ruler
Thrifty (2): +10% job efficiency to commercial jobs, -15% leader maintenance costs
Long-lived (1): +5% job efficiency in administrative jobs, +10 years lifespan in leaders
Venerable (3): +5% job efficiency in administrative jobs, +5% elite strata job efficiency, +50 years lifespan in leaders
Intelligent (3): +10% job efficiency to knowledge jobs, +15% XP gain to scientists
Quick-learner (1): -50% pop demotion time, +15% XP gain in all leader types
Talented (1): +10% civilian job efficiency, -1 max negative trait in leaders
Resilient (1): +5% worker strata job efficiency, +50% army HP, leaders have a 10% chance to lose negative traits each passing year, as well as a 50% chance of surviving deathly events
Communal (1): -10% housing usage, -30% housing usage in colonies with 1000 pops or more
Nomadic (1): -25% resettlement costs, +15% growth from immigration, +15% habitability in colonies with less than 1000 pops on them
Conformist (1): +50% governing ethics attraction, -50% unhappiness from living standards
Docile (1): -10% size from pops, -20% size from pops if enslaved
Natural sociologists (1): +10% job efficiency in Sociologists jobs, +1 social research alternative if present on empire ruler
Natural engineers (1): +10% job efficiency in physicist jobs, +1 engineering research alternative if present on empire ruler
Natural physicist (1): +10% job efficiency in physicist jobs, +1 physics research alternative if present on empire ruler
Conservationist (1): −10% pop consumer goods & food upkeep, -5% per natural blocker, -5% in gaias (those might stack up)
Agrarian (farmer, angler, pearl diver, wrangler, zookeper, hunter, warden)
Extractive (miner, scrap miner, rare resource miner, angler)
Technical (technician, artisan, artificier, augmentor)
Physical (miner, farmer, technician, soldier, enforcer, duelist, knight, labourer, hunter, toiler)
Social (entertainer, priest, high priest, bio-trophy, storm dancer, spa attendant, prosperity preacher, duelist, educator, knight, squire, telepath, merchant)
Administrative (bureucrat, politician, knight, priest, high priest, acolyte, noble, skywatcher, memorialist, science director, telepath, Executive)
Knowledge (physicist, engineer, biologist, science director, medical worker, archeo-engineer, educator, knight, astral researcher, skywatcher, memorialist, telepath)
Commercial (trader, merchant, prosperity preacher, Executive, pearl diver, artificier, cybernetic merchant)
Engineering (engineer, roboticist, cybernetic merchant, archeo-engineer, artificier)
Sociology (biologist, medical worker, spa attendant, wrangler, zookeeper, warden, educator)
Physicist (physicist, astral researcher, storm dancer, telepath, astrometeorologist, astral researcher)
Fabrile (metallurgist, artisan, rare resource syntetizer, catalyzer, artificier, roboticist)
LABEL-BOOSTING TRAITS
Ingenious (1): +10% job efficiency to technical jobs
Industrious (1): +10% job efficiency to extractive jobs
Agrarian (1): +10% job efficiency to agrarian jobs
Strong (1): +5% job efficiency to physical jobs, +20% army damage
Very strong (3): +10% job efficiency to physical jobs, +5% slave strata job efficiency, +50% army damage, +15% XP gain to commanders
Traditional (2): +10% job efficiency in administrative jobs, +15% XP gain to officials
Charismatic (2): +10% job efficiency to social jobs, +30 opinion from regular empires if present on the empire ruler
Thrifty (2): +10% job efficiency to commercial jobs, -15% leader maintenance costs
Long-lived (1): +5% job efficiency in administrative jobs, +10 years lifespan in leaders
Venerable (3): +5% job efficiency in administrative jobs, +5% elite strata job efficiency, +50 years lifespan in leaders
Intelligent (3): +10% job efficiency to knowledge jobs, +15% XP gain to scientists
Quick-learner (1): -50% pop demotion time, +15% XP gain in all leader types
Talented (1): +10% civilian job efficiency, -1 max negative trait in leaders
Resilient (1): +5% worker strata job efficiency, +50% army HP, leaders have a 10% chance to lose negative traits each passing year, as well as a 50% chance of surviving deathly events
Communal (1): -10% housing usage, -30% housing usage in colonies with 1000 pops or more
Nomadic (1): -25% resettlement costs, +15% growth from immigration, +15% habitability in colonies with less than 1000 pops on them
Conformist (1): +50% governing ethics attraction, -50% unhappiness from living standards
Docile (1): -10% size from pops, -20% size from pops if enslaved
Natural sociologists (1): +10% job efficiency in Sociologists jobs, +1 social research alternative if present on empire ruler
Natural engineers (1): +10% job efficiency in physicist jobs, +1 engineering research alternative if present on empire ruler
Natural physicist (1): +10% job efficiency in physicist jobs, +1 physics research alternative if present on empire ruler
Conservationist (1): −10% pop consumer goods & food upkeep, -5% per natural blocker, -5% in gaias (those might stack up)
It would solve most of my problems with the current system.
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Absolutely no arguments here. I've been workshopping that throwaway line at the end and I think it's got legs. Basic concept:
Each of the 0.XX% per-job traits adds 0.XX trade equivalent of the associated job's main output to their pop (not job) upkeep, alongside a similar amount of food (equivalent) or CG. In return they get half the trait's efficiency bonus to all jobs that aren't the primary job.
So an Agrarian bio pop empire eats an extra 0.3 food per worker or slave pop - they work hard and they eat hard. This drops their net starting farmer boost to only 0.9 - 0.3 = 0.6 net bonus food per farmer, but an extra 0.45 energy - 0.3 food = effectively 0.15 net bonus energy per technician, trading 0.3 food for 0.3 minerals per miner.
Your Agrarian Specialists and Elites are consuming 0.15 food and 0.075 extra CG. They're not working quite as physically hard, but you don't grow up in farmerworld without developing a hearty appetite and an appreciation for artwork of square cows. And the 7.5% efficiency of course comes with the standard +7.5% increase in job upkeep as well.
Similarly an Ingenious Biopop Worker is at +0.15 food and +0.15 energy upkeep; you're still burning more calories a day, but your relaxation of choice is a night of videogames rather than a sumptious feast. Your local mayor isn't burning more enery so he doesn't eat more food, but he does spend 0.075cg more a month, nearly your entire salary, on upgrading his sweet rig.
Meanwhile a Charismatic Lithoid empire eats more minerals/cg than a standard empire as well as more amenities; the work is easy when everyone's friendly, but it's hard to get prompt service when everyone's chatting all day.
There'd be exceptions. Natural Biologists shouldn't eat Biology and Traditional empires shouldn't eat unity, but you can just swap those out for increased CG or even Trade directly. Or Natural Physicists could eat more energy due to all those home experiments they won't stop running. Intelligent could be potentially decoupled from Research and just be 10% across the board but at the cost of 0.15 extra CG for every pop regardless of strata, making it a generic work smarter, not harder trait. And an agriculture bot in a technician job getting productivity boosts from hoarding 1.8 food a year sounds... well no that sounds great.
There's enough levers going on here that you'll probably get a few "Aha!" moments where things line up nice, and it even covers the biotrophy problem - you can have an empire full of gourmands who love their treats or a bunch of charming divas or a bunch of nerds plugged into the internet 24/7, it's entirely down to what extra resources you want your empire to shove in their faces and your unity gets the half benefits no matter what.
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personally, i think the current way is more interesting, not less, since it allows me to boost ALL output from that job, and then have trait points to spend elsewhere. the one example i hadn't thought of was biotrophies.
but like i said before, being able to boost EVERYTHING from a job that produces multiple things, makes all the civics/origins/planet modifiers that give me jobs that produce multiple things MORE interesting
but like i said before, being able to boost EVERYTHING from a job that produces multiple things, makes all the civics/origins/planet modifiers that give me jobs that produce multiple things MORE interesting
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I don't like "half assed" because I feel it implies lazyiness or a lack of caring. I think the devs very very much care about delivering a quality game and are putting a great deal of effort into doing so. I don't agree with all the decisions they've made or where they've chosen to focus their limited time but even there I recognise it's very easy to make those kinds of judgements from the outside. There's dozens of things in the game I'd consider at best quarter implemented but I would never say they haven't been putting their full backs into it, ass and all.
e: this came across a bit more scoldy than I intended
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