The planning mechanic is bad game design

[Killer-Cosmo]

i see why you thought this applied to what i meant, but it doesn't. built-up supply grace allows units to push for longer without replenishing their "baseline" ammo/food/whatever, and goes with them as they move but it doesn't impact the intensity of their attack into any given province. IRL, especially in regards to US and Soviet doctrine, mass buildups of munitions - especially artillery - in a specific point for a breakthrough was essential, and actually raised the "attack" of a unit significantly by allowing for increased artillery/mortar/HMG/general suppressive saturation. this was consumed even in "high supply areas," whereas what you describe isn't impacted at all by fighting in zones with sufficient supply points for the units.

This is reasonable
If a change had to be made to represent this, I suggest a new bonus provided during periods of high supply, acting as a sort of anti-"low supply" buff, calculated per battalion instead of by the supply of the entire division (so 500% special forces don't get extreme bonuses). Artillery would receive the strongest bonuses for stockpiling, meaning a division with more artillery would be stronger after resting in tiles with high supply. To get around the frontline possibly having less supply, assigning them to their own armies means Staff Office Plan could allow the current planning system to remain, or it could be reworked alongside the introduction of this new feature (keep reading to see my suggestion about that)

---

I would rather tie it to system of morale, ie. you decide capture points your operation will take in a certain timeline, your troops will start with higher morale, the less points you've designated you capture and the bigger to the closing timeframe, the more morale bonus your troops would lose as you do not fulfil military objectives.

Instead of "morale" how about a "schedule" mechanic? Like the "Operation Barbarossa" timed event for Germany in vanilla, where you have to achieve every objective (capture Leningrad, Stalingrad and Moscow) before time runs out, or more accurately like the "Operation Yekaterina" timed event for Russia in Kaiserreich, where you capture the capital of each Oststaat consecutively (each capital being it's own objective that unlocks the next) before rushing for Berlin as like a final Hail Mary, with instead of gradually decreasing Planning Bonus, you lose it at set points (like not making enough progress)

Or how about a new mechanic entirely? Something like "Operations"
TL.DR for below: Add a means of replenishing the planning bonus during a battleplan

You start by drawing the battleplan the same as now (in this case a structured group of tiles) into enemy territory. These could be General or Fieldmarshal orders, with some undetermined differences between them. The direction of the order can be altered to allow for maneuvers more complex than just "forward". You would be given the choice of what tiles are the "Exterior Wall" of the plan, and the order in which they should be taken. There could even be presets to speed this process up

Each tile included within the plan would add a one-time Command Point cost, with that cost depending on some factors:

Increased by​

• What types of tile are selected (Supply, airfields, terrain etc.)
• How many tiles are selected as a whole (bigger plans/further into enemy territory = more CP)

Reduced by​

• General/Fieldmarshal overall level
• General/Fieldmarshall planning skill level
• Intelligence level (most likely army)
• Recon planes operating in the airzone(s) the plan is in
• Spy networks operating in the area

During the drawing phase you are told how much CP it will require and if you have enough (with a tooltip explaining the above modifiers) and you choose whether to accept or delete the plan. You then add divisions to the plan, each one taking away from your total CP (Like Attaches, More Ground Crews etc.) whilst they're assigned. This is refunded in full the division is unassigned. After being assigned, they will gain an augmented version of the current planning bonus, incrementally increasing over time to a set amount, however it differs in that divisions don't have to be on the frontline to get it but not being on the frontline slows the gain, so having them visible on the frontline is the quickest and riskiest way to get it. If you have more time you can move them back and get it slower without exposing where they are.

There could be a whole other section of this mechanic called "Starting Positions" in which a button next to the launch plan one which calls the divisions to designated tiles, then tells you when they're all in place. This is already very long so I'll save that for another time

For the bonus, the total amount gained and the speed by which it is gained will most likely remain the same, although the Max Planning and Planning Speed modifiers could receive additional functionality

When the time comes, you activate the order. The divisions start attacking along the designated tiles and, like before, slowly lose their planning bonus. The main difference here is they are able to maintain their bonus (not going above the current level) through successful military actions, including:

• Organisation/HP damage dealt to opposing divisions
• Ground/tiles taken (could be greater if taking a full province or state)

This means your divisions don't lose as much steam so long as they keep winning, thematically this could be "keeping to schedule"

One aspect I'm less sure about is manual control during the plan. I'd like to think of it as a means to react to unforseen events, like enemy hard-points or counter-attacks, but how that'll affect the plan as a whole, or the planning bonus I have no idea other than it increases decay due to going "off-schedule"

Since this is essentially turning the current planning system on its head, changes to existing content will have to be made. Command Points will play an integral role so their availability will be balanced, anything relating to the current planning modifiers may have to be re-coded, as well as any number of back-end things I can't think of right now. For all this effort though, if it were added alongside more concise visuals for battleplans, I think it might just work

I might honestly submit this as a proper suggestion later, I'm liking the sound of this

 

[pro.gamer.69]

If a change had to be made to represent this, I suggest a new bonus provided during periods of high supply, acting as a sort of anti-"low supply" buff, calculated per battalion instead of by the supply of the entire division (so 500% special forces don't get extreme bonuses). Artillery would receive the strongest bonuses for stockpiling, meaning a division with more artillery would be stronger after resting in tiles with high supply. To get around the frontline possibly having less supply, assigning them to their own armies means Staff Office Plan could allow the current planning system to remain, or it could be reworked alongside the introduction of this new feature (keep reading to see my suggestion about that)

what this is missing more than anything is an impact on one's industry. the USSR were not able to do these massed artillery attacks across their fronts because it was simply too expensive in terms of ammunition, and that the US in some ways (late war) sort of was able to was what made them so formidable. I think you'd honestly want it to be something active (as opposed to passive), like a command power general ability that also consumed an ammo resource, but frankly that level of micro and the addition of a fifth "mana" bar for divisions (alongside planning, entrenchment, strength and org) seems a little bit extensive for me. some mods model it by just adding ammo as an equipment with insanely low reliability and give all terrain minor baseline attrition but idk

 

[cdub8d]

This is reasonable
If a change had to be made to represent this, I suggest a new bonus provided during periods of high supply, acting as a sort of anti-"low supply" buff, calculated per battalion instead of by the supply of the entire division (so 500% special forces don't get extreme bonuses). Artillery would receive the strongest bonuses for stockpiling, meaning a division with more artillery would be stronger after resting in tiles with high supply. To get around the frontline possibly having less supply, assigning them to their own armies means Staff Office Plan could allow the current planning system to remain, or it could be reworked alongside the introduction of this new feature (keep reading to see my suggestion about that)

---

Instead of "morale" how about a "schedule" mechanic? Like the "Operation Barbarossa" timed event for Germany in vanilla, where you have to achieve every objective (capture Leningrad, Stalingrad and Moscow) before time runs out, or more accurately like the "Operation Yekaterina" timed event for Russia in Kaiserreich, where you capture the capital of each Oststaat consecutively (each capital being it's own objective that unlocks the next) before rushing for Berlin as like a final Hail Mary, with instead of gradually decreasing Planning Bonus, you lose it at set points (like not making enough progress)

Or how about a new mechanic entirely? Something like "Operations"
TL.DR for below: Add a means of replenishing the planning bonus during a battleplan

You start by drawing the battleplan the same as now (in this case a structured group of tiles) into enemy territory. These could be General or Fieldmarshal orders, with some undetermined differences between them. The direction of the order can be altered to allow for maneuvers more complex than just "forward". You would be given the choice of what tiles are the "Exterior Wall" of the plan, and the order in which they should be taken. There could even be presets to speed this process up

Each tile included within the plan would add a one-time Command Point cost, with that cost depending on some factors:

Increased by​

• What types of tile are selected (Supply, airfields, terrain etc.)
• How many tiles are selected as a whole (bigger plans/further into enemy territory = more CP)

Reduced by​

• General/Fieldmarshal overall level
• General/Fieldmarshall planning skill level
• Intelligence level (most likely army)
• Recon planes operating in the airzone(s) the plan is in
• Spy networks operating in the area

During the drawing phase you are told how much CP it will require and if you have enough (with a tooltip explaining the above modifiers) and you choose whether to accept or delete the plan. You then add divisions to the plan, each one taking away from your total CP (Like Attaches, More Ground Crews etc.) whilst they're assigned. This is refunded in full the division is unassigned. After being assigned, they will gain an augmented version of the current planning bonus, incrementally increasing over time to a set amount, however it differs in that divisions don't have to be on the frontline to get it but not being on the frontline slows the gain, so having them visible on the frontline is the quickest and riskiest way to get it. If you have more time you can move them back and get it slower without exposing where they are.

There could be a whole other section of this mechanic called "Starting Positions" in which a button next to the launch plan one which calls the divisions to designated tiles, then tells you when they're all in place. This is already very long so I'll save that for another time

For the bonus, the total amount gained and the speed by which it is gained will most likely remain the same, although the Max Planning and Planning Speed modifiers could receive additional functionality

When the time comes, you activate the order. The divisions start attacking along the designated tiles and, like before, slowly lose their planning bonus. The main difference here is they are able to maintain their bonus (not going above the current level) through successful military actions, including:

• Organisation/HP damage dealt to opposing divisions
• Ground/tiles taken (could be greater if taking a full province or state)

This means your divisions don't lose as much steam so long as they keep winning, thematically this could be "keeping to schedule"

One aspect I'm less sure about is manual control during the plan. I'd like to think of it as a means to react to unforseen events, like enemy hard-points or counter-attacks, but how that'll affect the plan as a whole, or the planning bonus I have no idea other than it increases decay due to going "off-schedule"

Since this is essentially turning the current planning system on its head, changes to existing content will have to be made. Command Points will play an integral role so their availability will be balanced, anything relating to the current planning modifiers may have to be re-coded, as well as any number of back-end things I can't think of right now. For all this effort though, if it were added alongside more concise visuals for battleplans, I think it might just work

I might honestly submit this as a proper suggestion later, I'm liking the sound of this

More mechanical depth around opertations sounds exciting! WW2 was really the birth of operational warfare and I think Hoi4 is really missing this layer!!!

 

[Killer-Cosmo]

what this is missing more than anything is an impact on one's industry. the USSR were not able to do these massed artillery attacks across their fronts because it was simply too expensive in terms of ammunition, and that the US in some ways (late war) sort of was able to was what made them so formidable. I think you'd honestly want it to be something active (as opposed to passive), like a command power general ability that also consumed an ammo resource, but frankly that level of micro and the addition of a fifth "mana" bar for divisions (alongside planning, entrenchment, strength and org) seems a little bit extensive for me. some mods model it by just adding ammo as an equipment with insanely low reliability and give all terrain minor baseline attrition but idk

Then how about a cross between Motorization levels and Underway Replenishment, where you use a button to provide set levels of extra artillery/guns to a division/army? This way you can compress more equipment into the same sized division, possibly with some other penalty, but drastically increase equipment requirements. They could either act like regular equipment or give specific bonuses

Also, do you have anything to add regarding my long-winded "Operations" suggestion?

More mechanical depth around opertations sounds exciting! WW2 was really the birth of operational warfare and I think Hoi4 is really missing this layer!!!

Thank you
I'm going to post this to the suggestions page in a bit so feel free to leave a like

 

[pro.gamer.69]

Then how about a cross between Motorization levels and Underway Replenishment, where you use a button to provide set levels of extra artillery/guns to a division/army? This way you can compress more equipment into the same sized division, possibly with some other penalty, but drastically increase equipment requirements. They could either act like regular equipment or give specific bonuses

Also, do you have anything to add regarding my long-winded "Operations" suggestion?

having it be based around supply hubs is a solid idea.

operations i sort of like, even though it'd be a little micro-intensive for me, if the battleplanner worked predictably/had more controllability AND was a limited-use resource in a way (command power) I can appreciate the way your idea models encouraging sticking to an initial plan as much as possible and discourages deviation, which in turn would add a lot of tactics to trying to predict your enemies' plans as well. however I do really hate command power in general. maybe if last stand/force attack were removed or massively downsized it'd be fine though, a better general staff enabling broader-scale and more frequent planning is fairly realistic

 

[blahmaster6k]

The AI is also really bad at using espionage networks to nerf battleplans and entrenchment. (Or just bad at setting up networks in the first place since I really prioritize defense early and often.)

Pretty sure the ai only ever puts spies in other countries' capitals. You can see it in single player as Germany, any troops you might have garrisoning near Berlin will be stuck at 0 entrenchment because every AI in the world has spies there. Move a few states away and you're fine.

 

[cdub8d]

having it be based around supply hubs is a solid idea.

operations i sort of like, even though it'd be a little micro-intensive for me, if the battleplanner worked predictably/had more controllability AND was a limited-use resource in a way (command power) I can appreciate the way your idea models encouraging sticking to an initial plan as much as possible and discourages deviation, which in turn would add a lot of tactics to trying to predict your enemies' plans as well. however I do really hate command power in general. maybe if last stand/force attack were removed or massively downsized it'd be fine though, a better general staff enabling broader-scale and more frequent planning is fairly realistic

If force attack and last stand were heavily nerfed, I would be quite happy.

 

[Killer-Cosmo]

having it be based around supply hubs is a solid idea.

That wasn't my intention originally but sure, that works.
I meant it more generally, just having the button be near the motorization option for armies, perhaps with tiers of how much equipment you're putting in for how much benefit

More mechanical depth around operations sounds exciting! WW2 was really the birth of operational warfare and I think Hoi4 is really missing this layer!!!

The suggestion is now up with a few revisions

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/revisions-to-battle-plans-and-planning.1733902/

 

[Secret Master]

It's somewhat ironic that the mechanic to counter a different mechanic doesn't have a counter of it's own

Well, the problem in this case is an exploit that only appears in MP games because you can't coordinate with the AI.

Let's say there are 10 countries in your faction. All 10 countries can put a spy network (active, not asleep) in the same area. Now, you would think the game takes the highest network and factors that in for nerfing planning/entrenchment. But what actually happens is that it totals their effects together. This makes it trivial to reduce planning/entrenchment to 0 in a short span of time. And because it's multiple countries trying this at the same time, capturing one of the agents still leaves 9 agents on redundancy/stacking modifiers to wipe out planning/entrenchment.

If only one network applied, it would be a "fair" fight in the sense that 5 different 20% networks wouldn't equal 100% nerf on the defender anymore. It's just 20% with redundancy built in when an agent gets grabbed.

But since this exploit exists, you can't let people use the counter that exists for planning bonus, so... GBP is king in 99% of situations.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Just as a side note to those who don't know, most MP games ban using espionage networks to nerf planning bonus/entrenchment. That means the game does have mechanics to counterbalance these high planning bonus modifiers, but they are not allowed in a lot of situations due to other balancing issues.

note that interrupting planning isn't always possible; it's contingent on being able to place a spy close enough that it will influence the front. that's commonly possible in europe, but elsewhere it is no guarantee. always felt that was arbitrary.

 

[LordWahu]

Well, the problem in this case is an exploit that only appears in MP games because you can't coordinate with the AI.

Let's say there are 10 countries in your faction. All 10 countries can put a spy network (active, not asleep) in the same area. Now, you would think the game takes the highest network and factors that in for nerfing planning/entrenchment. But what actually happens is that it totals their effects together. This makes it trivial to reduce planning/entrenchment to 0 in a short span of time. And because it's multiple countries trying this at the same time, capturing one of the agents still leaves 9 agents on redundancy/stacking modifiers to wipe out planning/entrenchment.

If only one network applied, it would be a "fair" fight in the sense that 5 different 20% networks wouldn't equal 100% nerf on the defender anymore. It's just 20% with redundancy built in when an agent gets grabbed.

But since this exploit exists, you can't let people use the counter that exists for planning bonus, so... GBP is king in 99% of situations.

That exploit isn't the problem with spy networks. The problem is that spy networks can't be actively hindered. You can know it's there, but you can't do anything about it. It's an issue in single player as well (though less so because the AI is worse at placing spies) that even if you can see the effects of the network you can't try to eliminate it. All you can do is hope that RNG works in your favor

This is a general problem with the agency system. For the defender it's an entirely passive system, and for the offender only slightly less so. And because it's so heavily tied into the mechanics of the system, it's something that would require a full overhaul to fix

 

[William9113]

There are ideas and theories that are worth discussing and refuting and then there are ideas and theories to which the only reaction is a dismissive wave at best since everything else would be a waste of time and breath.

So how exactly did you come up with 75%+ planning bonus? The base max planning bonus is 30% plus 2% per planning skill point of the general plus 1% per planning skill level of the field marshal and 10% if the field marshal has the trait „thorough planning“.

Also the planning bonus is not completely lost if a unit is manually controlled when executing a battleplan but the bonus decay is increased from 1% per day to 3% per day.

I find your line of reasoning in light of this faulty

It is still based on planning skill, not General/FM level… and by what game year do younexpect to have these levels?



Ah yes… the ubiquitous MP reasoning… kind of a moot point to discuss on that basis in a single player game with a bolt-on MP mode. Also: in that mode everyone has access to the same mechanic so the advantage is cancelled out.

Honestly, I have yet to see one good reason why the battleplan mechanic is bad game design in this game.

You always "forget" to enable reactions on your posts whenever you give these snarky, opinionated arguments.

Convenient.

Pink text under your name isn't a permission slip to be a condescending pedant. You aren't acting as a moderator now, so turn the reactions on and face the opinion of others like the rest of us have to.

 

[billcorr]

single player game with a bolt-on MP mode

Accurate description.

Well said!

(I'm not being sarcastic... I've never heard of HoI4's multiplayer mode being described that way. Makes sense).

 

[billcorr]

For those interested in another perspective about battle planning:

 

[Nephandus]

You always "forget" to enable reactions on your posts whenever you give these snarky, opinionated arguments.

Convenient.

Pink text under your name isn't a permission slip to be a condescending pedant. You aren't acting as a moderator now, so turn the reactions on and face the opinion of others like the rest of us have to.

I am not forgetting, I am just too lazy to be bothered anymore to edit each posting I made to manually activate the reactions function.

As a person I am claiming the right to have opinions about things I read and hear and if I am being snarky then so be it. The question would be why I am being snarky? Is it because I am subjected to a constant stream the same old arguments? Maybe. In light of that, I am actually surprised that I have not yet resorted to sarcasm and cynicism.

Another benefit of not changing my posts to receive reactions: others do not get the chance of disagreeing with a mouse-click.... they have to put an effort into it just like in the old times.