The Provinces! (The Low Countries)

[Havard]

Ok, we don't know how the map will look, or which provinces will be in. What we do know is that there will be aprox. 900 provinces covering the area, giving a 2-to-3:1 ratio compared to EU2. From this, and history, I guess we should be able to think out a reasonable selection of provinces, right?

The Low Countries
In EU2 covered by 10 provinces = abt.20-30 CK provinces?

Revised list, north to south:

- Ost-Friesland
- West-Friesland
(- Groningen)
- Drente
- Overijssel
- Gelderland
- Utrecht
- Holland
- Zeeland
- Vlaanderen (Flanders)
- Brabant
- Limburg
- Luik (Liege)
- Luxemburg
- Namen (Namur)
- Henegouwen (Hainault)
- Artesië (Artois)
- Pikardie

 

[Idiotboy]

Did the division at the time of Karl V really mirror the time of CK?

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by Idiotboy
Did the division at the time of Karl V really mirror the time of CK?

That's what I'd like someone to comment on

 

[Havard]

Hm... I see I missed out on a few:

- Counties of Hainault, Namur (and Valkenburg and Dalem?)
- The Diocese of Liege
- Margraviate of Bergen op Zoom?

 

[unmerged(1057)]

Originally posted by Havard
Hm... I see I missed out on a few:

- Counties of Hainault, Namur (and Valkenburg and Dalem?)
- The Diocese of Liege
- Margraviate of Bergen op Zoom?

Hmm..Hainault is the same as Henegouwen (french-dutch)..or Hennegau in German..

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by Wasa


Hmm..Hainault is the same as Henegouwen (french-dutch)..or Hennegau in German..

Doh! I know that... (really! I do! ).

Anyone know anything about Valkenburg and Dalem?

Edit: I had Namur (Namen) too

 

[unmerged(1057)]

About Valkenburg..see this site..in dutch ..

 

[Murmurandus]

Originally posted by Idiotboy
Did the division at the time of Karl V really mirror the time of CK?

Being a Lowlander but no historican I guess Havards overview is a first step to start with. I assume most of it is correct, but it will be difficult to for example check the correlations between them. I seem to remember that Limburg was 'part of' the 'Bisdom' of Luik/Liège...(Bisdom meaning that some clerical dude was the boss)

 

[Jos Theelen]

Both Utrecht and Liege (Luik) were Dioceses (is this the right word ?), ruled by a bishop.

 

[Barkdreg]

Originally posted by Murmurandus


Being a Lowlander but no historican I guess Havards overview is a first step to start with. I assume most of it is correct, but it will be difficult to for example check the correlations between them. I seem to remember that Limburg was 'part of' the 'Bisdom' of Luik/Liège...(Bisdom meaning that some clerical dude was the boss)

Not in 1066, only later the Bisdom got Limburg IITC. I think they lost it to the Duke of Brabant.

 

[Murmurandus]

Originally posted by Barkdreg


Not in 1066, only later the Bisdom got Limburg IITC. I think they lost it to the Duke of Brabant.

This proves my point, I think that Paradox will have a very hardtime to get all relations right, not to mention the regions. I once saw a chart of Flanders during that period and it was very splintered and divided in numerous counties, bisdoms, duchies and so on...There was also a part owned by the bishop of Cologne etc.

 

[Seli]

The list looks fine, but as has been mentioned before the situation has changes a lot during the middle ages. I found a map for the Low Countries in 1340 that shows the strange divisions still present after a lot of consolidating.

 

[Murmurandus]

Originally posted by Seli
The list looks fine, but as has been mentioned before the situation has changes a lot during the middle ages. I found a map for the Low Countries in 1340 that shows the strange divisions still present after a lot of consolidating.

Interresting site...It has also (umong others) a list of all counts of Flanders for the whole CK period...

 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

http://members.tripod.com/roepstem/vlaanderen.html#overzicht

map of the 17 provinces

 

[unmerged(1057)]

I think that what we must discuss, is what is best for game purposes , of course the situation changes a lot over the timespan, but a rulers realm might consist of several "provinces" when the game begins..

 

[Zius]

I am missing two territories:
- West-Friesland, which is nowadays the northern part of Noord-Holland, roughly north of Alkmaar. The most famous West-Frisian cities include Enkhuizen, Medemblik, Hoorn and Alkmaar. It was an equal part of the Frisian "Uppstal beame" alliance until duke Floris V of Holland conquered it in the 1270's.
- Oversticht. These are roughly the current provinces of Drenthe and Overijssel. These territories were officially part of the Bisdom of Utrecht, but were de facto "peasant-republics" like Friesland. The control of Utrecht over these territories was strongly fluctuating, ranging from de facto indepence (which was of course not acceptable in Feudal terms) to complete control.
One remaining question is whether you should combine Drenthe and Overijssel to form Oversticht, or that you should keep them as separate territories.

Further remarks:
- Groningen was at that time just a free city comparable to the Hanse cities in Germany. It didn't have much land, and was much influenced by the Frisians.
- Friesland was officially a county (made so by Charlemagne). The heriditairy ruler (although not accepted in Friesland and debated abroad) were the counts of Holland. If the term county is not accpetable, the term should be landscape (region) which was also used for Drenthe and Overijssel. (Oversticht)

 

[Vulture]

Allow me to drool for a sec...

*DROOOOOOOOOOL*


....

*still DROOLING***




....
....

....


*MORE DROOL*


I will lead Antwerp to glory!

 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

you're a few centuries too early

 

[Murmurandus]

Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80
you're a few centuries too early

Antwerpen and glory are a contradictio in terminis...

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by Havard
The Low Countries
In EU2 covered by 10 provinces = abt.20-30 CK provinces?

Revised list, north to south:

- Ost-Friesland
- West-Friesland
- Groningen
- Drente
- Overijssel
- Gelderland
- Utrecht
- Holland
- Zeeland
- Vlaanderen (Flanders)
- Brabant
- Limburg
- Luik (Liege)
- Luxemburg
- Namen (Namur)
- Henegouwen (Hainault)
- Artesië (Artois)
- Pikardie

Ok... Revised list... Marggraviates axed since I found no reference to them holding any territories (sorry 'bout Antwerp Vult ), added West-Friesland. I still think some more provinces are needed, and that some of the larger southern provinces should be split. How about splitting up Pikardie, Artois, Flandern and Hainault to create seven new provinces:

- Ost-Friesland
- West-Friesland
- Groningen
- Drente
- Overijssel
- Gelderland
- Utrecht
- Holland
- Zeeland
- Vlaanderen (Flanders)
- Brabant
- Limburg
- Luik (Liege)
- Luxemburg
- Namen (Namur)
- Ponthieu
- Amiens
- Vermandois
- Boulonnais
- Artois
- Saint Pol?
- Cambrai
- Hainault
- Calais
- Tournais

This gives a grand total of 25, which seems more righ... or?