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The recent problem with relations, religion and vassalisation

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Hartmann

Hartmann

Kaiser v.G.G. (abdicated)
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Oct 20, 2000
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  • Europa Universalis IV
I have found out, what´s wrong. It´s NOT that relations between countries with the same religion improve faster now. The effect of this alone would be nicely counterweighted by the reformation, which leads to new religious blocks. And the relations between DIFFERENT religions should worsen overtime after all.

Now, it´s this:

a) relations between lutheran and catholic nations do NOT worsen but IMPROVE over time now. Only reformed vs catholic has the correct effect.
b) a nation can now vassalize a nation of the 'wrong' religion. (I had this ten minutes ago with Sweden and Georgia!)

These two points together cause 90% of the current trouble. If converting to Lutheran will again lead to a worsening of relation with catholic nations and the religious vassalisation restrictions will be again introduced, everything will be allright again. As a last point, it should be considered, NOT to let the relations between pagan nations improve that fast - pagan is not always pagan, if You know what I mean. ;)

Regards, Hartmann
 
wow , (making a deep bow)

If you're right, Johan will be very pleased.
And count me in with the pleased ones as well.

greetings, Oranje
 
Thanks for the praise, Oranje. :) But I have to introduce a slight correction to a):
All this is of course modified by alliances, wars, merchants competing in cots etc. so it´s not always the same between any two lutheran and catholic countries. But all in all i found the relations between Lutheran and catholic countries (e.g. Portugal and England) slowly improving instead of slowly worsening (as they should).

Regards, Hartmann
 
There are more problems within this area.
I'm currently away from home for a week, but I've made some bugnotes at my home computer about the 1.07b patch.

Basicly the whole dipsystem is broken. I frequently, as protestant Sweden, made Royal Mariages with both Catholics & Reformed throughout the game.
This was made amonge the AI nations too.

I also had the option to vassalise other countries which neighter had my religion OR was in an alliance with me (though I never succeded with it, just 3-4 tries though).

Know there where alot of other stuff too, but this is what I remember for certain. Thought I'd wait with reporting untill I got home and doublechecked everything, but since you've started this thread I thought I'd mention it anyway.

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/ Stefan Huszics EU FAQ
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If your discovery is true, then this is big news Hartmann! I do hope you have found the culprit that has made me apprehensive over EU's 'diplo-vassalization' issue. As an EU-player wanna-be I want to keep up with this kind of news!

Wonder what you will come to be known as should you have found the fault?

Hartmann - Sleuthus Maximus
Hartmann - Lord Protector of the Virgin Code
Hartmann - Bug Czar
Hartmann - Slayer of the Diplo Assassins

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~ Salve ~
 
Hartman and Huszics,

Even if there may be more to it than simply a 'Lutheran problem', the religious issue being isolated as possibly the main one that is dysfunctional HAS to be a major step towards isolating the code problem. According to Hartman's post the other factors which should influence relations seem to function well enough, leaving religion as the way to trace the error. Hope this is true!



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Rio ~/|~
 
Thanx folks for the praise, but in this case I do not deserve it :(: I had a preversion of 1.07b to test for almost a week and did not notice the bug then. :eek:
I was enthusiastic about the 'universal hate' gone. I played many short games for about 20 years only and simply assumed, that the improvement of relations would be counterweighted by the effects of reformation later (breaking of vassalisations, worsening of relations between religious blocks etc.).
In somewhat longer games I mainly had my eye on the 'badboy'.
And in very long games I played 'hands off' on the 'very fast' setting. There I mainly looked for 'crash bugs' and general development of history (which was still o.k. all in all). That´s why I must have overlooked, that reformation etc. has NOT the expected and desired effects.

Hartmann
 
In my last game patch 1.05b SE.

Some years after changing my religion to protestant I tried to have a wedding with a catholic country that I had a relation of +180 with and couldn't since we had diffrent religions. Ten years later that country proposed a wedding, we had still diffrent religions. After that their was no problem to have royale marriges with other religions,and also have vassals that had other religions.
 
Edict of Tolerance cancels the restrictions of royal marriages and vassals between different christians.

/Johan
 
I guess everything about the good relations is true, but I am still unsure whether this would solve all 'Vassalisation' problems. In my games, by 1540 (before Luther), most of the states were Vassalised and a large fraction even annexed. I do not think it is solely the problem of relations. but merely a problem of the probablility of Vassalisation. I guess that has been changed (and many Vassalisations are not poeeible simply because of another country coming up and 'grabbing' it before for example Austria can get hold of Hungary).
 
Originally posted by daboese:
I guess everything about the good relations is true, but I am still unsure whether this would solve all 'Vassalisation' problems. In my games, by 1540 (before Luther), most of the states were Vassalised and a large fraction even annexed. I do not think it is solely the problem of relations. but merely a problem of the probablility of Vassalisation. I guess that has been changed (and many Vassalisations are not poeeible simply because of another country coming up and 'grabbing' it before for example Austria can get hold of Hungary).
Click to expand...

But don´t forget, that existing vassalisations are cancelled when one partner changes religions.
To change the probability for Austria to vassalize Hungary to the better again (like it was in 1.0), the 'relative strongness' issue would have to be adjusted for these two: Hungary is always too mighty (mightier than Austria in fact).

Hartmann

[This message has been edited by Hartmann (edited 07-02-2001).]
 
Originally posted by Hartmann:
True, but the problem is, that 'weird' vassalisation events occur long before this edict now ...

Hartmann
Click to expand...

These event's happened to me too throughout the game (tolerance usually doesn't come into fassion before 1600 at least). IIRC this strange behaviour mainly happend with those new countries that keept poppoing up all over the place from revolts.

Also, no matter how tolerant towards other religions you are your not suppoes to be able to offer vassalisation to countries your not even allied to.
So this is clearly a bug in any case.

I also have a few other notes at my homecomp about oddities in the diplomatic section of the game, but as I said I'm not anywhere near it untill next week.
But don't let this hold you back Johan, there are definitly wierd stuff going on in the dipsection of the game, check it out.

btw is it a bug or a 'feature' that Sweden's provinces with the state religion always have 5% higher revoltrisk (tolenrance slider varies between +16 to -4% instead of the normal +11% to -9%)?

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/ Stefan Huszics EU FAQ
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I agree that diplomatics and vassalisation are way off balance at any time- they were OK at 1.07a. As I said, perhaps a higher chance to vassalise and annex Hungary as Austria would be better than the mass vassalisations which happen at this point during the game.
 
I am running the game on V1.07b. I play on normal difficulty/aggression. I have noticed no more vassalizations than usual. Also, I am not able to offer vassalization to countries having a different faith or being in a different alliance than I am. I am not sure if the relationships between protestants and catholics improve, but I'll keep an I on it.

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Attrition is not a strategy. Attrition is the apparent lack of strategy. (Sun Tzu)
 
Huszics wrote:

'btw is it a bug or a 'feature' that Sweden's provinces with the state religion always
have 5% higher revoltrisk (tolenrance slider varies between +16 to -4% instead of the normal +11% to -9%)?'
Click to expand...

I have already listed this as a bug in the ToDoList. Not only Sweden is concerned: A given amount of tolerance to state religion generally gives less bonus than the same amount of tolerance for other religions. Johan seems to thinks of it as a 'feature', but he didn´t elaborate on it...

Hartmann
 
I suppose the argument for having to give extra tolerance to the state religion to achieve the same effect being considered as a feature is that whatever is the state religion should be receiving extra support from the state. If it receives the same as any other, how could it really be considered the state religion? Now feature or bug, I'm not sure ...
 
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