The Reddy Kingdom of Rajamundry

[Demetrios]

I've been reading some Indian history lately, and I've noticed the game is missing a fairly large player in the region at the game's start: the Reddy Kingdom of Rajamundry. In 1444, this state would cover what would be Tondainadu, Kosta, Velanadu, and Konaseema provinces in the game, with the last containing the capital of Rajamundry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddy_dynasty

Orissa (under their conqueror king Kapilendra) did not take over these provinces until 1448; in fact, in 1444, the Reddy Kingdom and Vijayanagar had just started a war with Orissa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapilendradeva


Normally, missing a state that only existed 4 years into the game period wouldn't be too big of an issue, but Reddy covered a fair amount of area, and it seems odd that a four-province nation is missing when there are plenty of one-province minors all over the Indian map. Moreover, giving the area to Orissa at game's start makes Orissa overly-powerful, especially with their (rightfully) amazing starting monarch - it's not uncommon to see Orissa become a major power in India. By adding in Reddy, it not only makes the map more historical, but makes Orissa fairly earn its way to great-power status.


(The province of Warangal, which is also part of Orissa at game's start, should belong to the Bahmanids. It appears that Orissa only got to Warangal in 1459, after first clearing out Reddy)

 

[Trin Tragula]

As I recall Warangal was under another Reddy dynasty, tributaries to the Bahmanis but also overcome by the Gajapatis.
Its true that the game preempts the final defeat of the Reddys though they where pretty doomed by this time the biggest reason is to give Orissa a chance to achieve what they did achieve historically, something thats really unlikely if you just look at the resources at their disposal (and that's more or less how their contemporaries viewed the Gajapatis too from what I can tell and the reason Kapilendra gets so much praise).
This was easier to get away with on the old map with its sparse province setup, and it would indeed be kind of nice to see the Redfys make an appearance instead. Still it would be a shame to have Orissa never take on its historical role as the wildcard that might catch the Bahmanis and Vijayanagar off guard.

 

[Demetrios]

As I recall Warangal was under another Reddy dynasty, tributaries to the Bahmanis but also overcome by the Gajapatis.
Its true that the game preempts the final defeat of the Reddys though they where pretty doomed by this time the biggest reason is to give Orissa a chance to achieve what they did achieve historically, something thats really unlikely if you just look at the resources at their disposal (and that's more or less how their contemporaries viewed the Gajapatis too from what I can tell and the reason Kapilendra gets so much praise).
This was easier to get away with on the old map with its sparse province setup, and it would indeed be kind of nice to see the Redfys make an appearance instead. Still it would be a shame to have Orissa never take on its historical role as the wildcard that might catch the Bahmanis and Vijayanagar off guard.

What could be done is have the Orissa and Reddy at war at game's start (which historically they were), with Orissa with a large army and its ruler and heir as good generals (I'm assuming at least Kapilendra is already in there), with Reddy lacking those. That should still result in Orissa bashing Reddy most of the time, but still leaving room for wild card sscenarios where it doesn't happen. In fact, since the game starts in late 1444, Orissa could already be starting to occupy provinces.

I do see your point, in that it gives Orissa a decent chance. It would be a tough choice between historical accuracy at game's start and balancing what happened immediately after...

 

[Trin Tragula]

We'll see
Orissa is in general a bit of a problem, it hasn't really got the numbers, resources or geography to be a great power and for most of this period it really wasn't
Yet it was taking on Jaunpur, the Bahmani Sultanate, Bengal and Vijayanagar near the start of the game. All based in areas that where the heartland of big, strong and lasting powers during the entire period covered by the game (young Jaunpur may not have lasted long but it's based in an area that has been the heartland of all great Indian Empires and harbors a significant part of its trade and population). And all strong powers even at that date.

In the meantime, if you're reading up on Indian history and haven't seen it yet I'll throw in my usual recommendation of this:
Schwartzberg Atlas of South Asian History
Chances are you've come across it already but if you haven't it's really an invaluable companion to almost any part of Indian history Just the list of references is longer than many historical atlases I've come across.

The period EU4 covers is one of the most interesting periods of Indian history IMO.

 

[Granite]

I know Paradox doesn't want to overuse lucky nations. But, honestly, given the lack of power players on the subcontinent, and the historical basis(Surviving the much larger Bahmanis Sultanate, Vijayanagar, and Jaunpur. Even surviving as a princely state until the unification of India.) I feel like if any Indian nation was "Lucky", it was Orissa.

 

[Gaussia]

Could introduce Lucky Nations Light for nations like Orissa, Tangou and Manchu? Or at least give them a few good events only spawning for the AI?

 

[Freudia]

I feel, if nothing else, giving them sleeper cores inside the respective provinces they historically owned would be a compromise.

 

[Me_]

This was easier to get away with on the old map with its sparse province setup, and it would indeed be kind of nice to see the Redfys make an appearance instead. Still it would be a shame to have Orissa never take on its historical role as the wildcard that might catch the Bahmanis and Vijayanagar off guard.

Isn't this one of the points of Dynamic Historical Events? To represent situations that the base game cannot convey? Aztecs and Cusco get an event that gives them extra monarch points and cash right of the bat, to give them an edge. Scots get an event that gives free troops. Manchu get two decisions that create instant armies. All of that is meant to strengthen nations in a precarious position. It's a pity that Albania does not get similar treatment. If the initial position of Orissa was weaker, this could be compensated by some highly-rewarding missions, good events or strong decisions.

 

[net.split]

So in game terms, Orissa lacked base tax, manpower, and production capabilities compared to its neighbors. Despite this it expanded and thrived for a while.

Sure, we could take the event route or lucky nation method to just brute force them the tools needed. But before going that route with all of its problems and drawbacks, what else could be used to help Orissa get what it got?

The first thing that comes to mind is its set of national traditions and ideas. The traditions are most important here if they are to survive these early years (especially assuming adding this new kingdom to take some of its provinces). The first idea is also pretty crucial, and the second is fairly important. The rest don't really matter; Orissa did not survive much more than 100 years in the game's timeline, so the rest should give lesser & non-military bonuses.

It seems wise, then, to front-load the bonuses with military advantages. Orissa's current Traditions grant +5% production efficiency and +15% fort defense. Replace these immediately with good offensive military bonuses. I'd suggest two of: +morale, +manpower recovery, -mercenary cost, +available mercenaries, or even +discipline. The first idea should be a bonus to land force limits or one of the other bonuses mentioned previously that wasn't selected, though the current Lord of the Elephants +infantry bonus isn't terrible.

Wiz has reported disliking starting nations at war for various reasons, so Orissa and Rajamundry probably shouldn't start at war. However, Orissa should have claims on all of Rajamundry so that they'll generally go to war very quickly (or just go with historical rivals and let the rival system take care of things on its own).

The fort bonus doesn't really need to be there anywhere in Orissa's set. It ceased to exist as an independent kingdom in the mid-late 1500s, and it had lost some territory to Vijayanagar before then (though it did manage to recover it).

 

[Demetrios]

So in game terms, Orissa lacked base tax, manpower, and production capabilities compared to its neighbors. Despite this it expanded and thrived for a while.

Sure, we could take the event route or lucky nation method to just brute force them the tools needed. But before going that route with all of its problems and drawbacks, what else could be used to help Orissa get what it got?

The first thing that comes to mind is its set of national traditions and ideas. The traditions are most important here if they are to survive these early years (especially assuming adding this new kingdom to take some of its provinces). The first idea is also pretty crucial, and the second is fairly important. The rest don't really matter; Orissa did not survive much more than 100 years in the game's timeline, so the rest should give lesser & non-military bonuses.

It seems wise, then, to front-load the bonuses with military advantages. Orissa's current Traditions grant +5% production efficiency and +15% fort defense. Replace these immediately with good offensive military bonuses. I'd suggest two of: +morale, +manpower recovery, -mercenary cost, +available mercenaries, or even +discipline. The first idea should be a bonus to land force limits or one of the other bonuses mentioned previously that wasn't selected, though the current Lord of the Elephants +infantry bonus isn't terrible.

Wiz has reported disliking starting nations at war for various reasons, so Orissa and Rajamundry probably shouldn't start at war. However, Orissa should have claims on all of Rajamundry so that they'll generally go to war very quickly (or just go with historical rivals and let the rival system take care of things on its own).

The fort bonus doesn't really need to be there anywhere in Orissa's set. It ceased to exist as an independent kingdom in the mid-late 1500s, and it had lost some territory to Vijayanagar before then (though it did manage to recover it).

Those are some excellent ideas that would buff Orissa nicely at game's start.

Loading up Orissa, I see that Kapilendra and his heir Hamvira aren't generals at game start, but I assume the AI isn't hesitant to create them such as I see AI ruler-generals all the time. Their ruler stats are 3/4/6 and 3/2/2 respectively, and when I created them as generals their stats there were 5/1/2/0 and 1/0/2/0 respectively. Kapilendra's stats look OK - a point or two more here or there in both ruler and general stats might be warranted given all he accomplished - but Hamvira could use a bit of a stat buff in both to ensure that Orissa gets a good decent early start, but one that will fade once their starter monarchs are dead.

 

[Trin Tragula]

the Reddy Kingdom of Rajamundry. In 1444

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/eu4-development-diary-june-25th.865878/

There they are, their own NIs and all (see screenshot)