The Socialism Mod

[Mrdie]

Sorry to go off-topic, but so long as the thread doesn't become consumed by this, it should be okay for a bit. Besides, we're merging off-topic discussion with the mod's discussion too.

But to suggest that Stalin didn't have a tarnished record prior to Lenin's death is misleading as Stalin was centered out by a dying Lenin to be removed from his post within the Central Committee, maybe even the party... Lenin come to view Stalin as.. rude

Lenin was just unsure whether or not Stalin could fulfill the duties of the post of General Secretary. He did call Stalin rude because of how Stalin treated his wife, but that seems fairly irrelevant considering that all the Bolsheviks were pretty rude to each other.

Lenin wrote such things down, however with Stalin in such a prized location looking after a confined Lenin, he could pick and choose what was released from his house.

Wasn't his wife pretty much constantly by his side and various Bolsheviks regularly visited him? I'm fairly sure he could release letters and such (which he did), just that he couldn't receive much information out of health concerns. I recall Trotsky in his later years (when he was significantly more anti-Stalin) saying that Stalin "poisoned" Lenin, which sounds a bit absurd given the round-the-clock care plus Lenin's wife.

(a testament that should be noted, trashed every leading Party figure, but would have harmed Stalin the most as his removal was the only practical suggestion in the document).

Besides suggesting that Stalin may not be able to exercise control with efficiency, he isn't really condemned as much as the others. He says that Bukharin never really understood dialectics, that Zinoviev and Kamenev's actions during 1917 were not accidents, and that Trotsky's non-Bolshevism pre-1917 was also not an accident, but that the party should try to move beyond those cases of mistakes made. I recall reading (either in Molotov's memoirs or Stalin: A New History) that Lenin didn't particularly trust anyone as a successor to him, although he felt Trotsky was good administrative-wise, but not so much politically. (He did attack him over trade unions in prior years)

In a short period of time the Left Opposition was crashed, Nadya isolated, the Testament silenced, Zinoviev and Kamenev removed then arrested, followed shortly by Bukharin, and then finally all of them killed in Stalin's massive and horrific purges.

Well "short period" wasn't that short (about 10 years between those incidents), but it is obvious that, from a Communist point of view, types like Zinoviev and Bukharin would be classed as opportunist, which is why it was easy to purge them rather, than, say, if Stalin for whatever reason had decided to purge Molotov. (It seems Stalin did want to purge Molotov in the early 50's, though, but died before he could) It was their shifting views that got them in the end; first against Stalin, then for, then against.

And now for actual discussions on mod ideas

Now if we imagine that it's the 30's and Bukharin, Zinoviev and Kamenev along with the others have been caste aside and know what to expect from Stalin and his new ring of allies and supporters, there is a very real chance they would have extended their hands out to their old friend (and at times rival) Trotsky along with other Left Oppositionists, not in political unity but rather in another united Opposition.

Perhaps, but what would determine such a thing in the game? "Bukharin/Zinoviev/Kamenev/etc. discovered that Stalin wants them dead, Stalin falls from power soon after. GLORY TO THE OCTOBER REVOLUTION!"

As I mentioned before, this would be nothing like inviting Trotsky to come head the whole revolutionary state the next day, but it would mean a reconvening of the Partiy's Old Guard (minus Stalin).

In game terms, a Bukharin-run USSR would be pretty interesting. I don't know what position Trotsky would have in such a cabinet (I don't think control of the armed forces would go to him), but I'd expect a Bukharinist USSR to basically begin to encourage consumer goods and such via expanded market relations (less central planning, more openness, etc.) though I'm not quite sure what Bukharin's foreign policy would be. The USSR would be significantly less stable under him though considering that he'd have to contend with opportunistic ex-Tsarist elements in the army that he wouldn't be in much of a position to purge, among other things.

Maybe Bukharin sees Trotsky as a threat to his power and purges him.

 

[unmerged(78703)]

You've been discussing here more I had ever expected.

Have you ever tought on putting Soviet defeat events? Like the fall of Moscow or things like that??
By the way, good work fellow.

I will add Soviet, as well as Axis, surrender events when I create events for the Great Patriotic War.

or even better.. how about working on a World Revolution set of events?
Where the SU declares war on nations and either annex them or turn them into Socialist states?

I will probably create World Revolution events for some alternative event lines, I just don't know yet what kind of, though.

Oh my god...this poster is SO creepy :wacko:

Soviet dummies are here for revenge!

Are the purges still random? Like, Zhukov can die and stuff? Cause with all the Stalin's bloodlust, they weren't random. And in game terms, it just sucks to find out that Novikow died and yet he's still a tech-team...

Stalin didn't always hold direct control over the purges. I do however think that those that were likely to be purged (Tukhachevsky, etc.) should probably be purged and that the chances of Zhukov or other random leaders being purged should be significantly less likely. It isn't like Stalin is going to look at some NKVD file on a leader with it saying "Comrade, grew up in the revolution from a poor peasant/worker family, fights for socialism" and then Stalin going "Ah-hah! An ex-Tsarist vulnerable to reaction and treachery! Purge."

There are some generals that aren't purged randomly. Tukhachevsky and eight other high military commanders were purged in 1938 in the Case of Trotskyist Anti-Soviet Military Organization. In this mod these generals will be always purged if player chooses to set up that "tria". There are also some generals that aren't purgen randomly in events for purge of the lower army ranks but majority of generals purged by these events are random.

I am planning events that will kill minister/tech team if the corresponding military leader happens to be randomly purged.

Zhukov's death is annoying in game but realistic. Zhukov was noone in 1938, he just survived because nobody cared about him. His first successful engagement was Khalkin-Gol. Budenny and Voroshilov repressed would be really wierd indeed, but I never saw them die.

There is in fact an event for purging specifically Budyonny and Voroshilov. I don't consider Stalin killing Voroshilov very probable but I've read stories about Budyonny being almost purged (although they may be just stories).

By 1936 Stalin was pretty much guaranteed power over Bukharin and co. in the case of votes. Trotskyism was seen as a foreign thing (e.g. accusations of spying, sabotage, etc.) whereas Bukharinism was seen as an internal thing, because Trotsky was in exile (and most of his followers were outside of the USSR) whereas Bukharin was building up his own base of support within the USSR and CPSU.

In the mod Bukharin, Zinovyev, Kamenev and so on can dismiss Stalin and later even purge him. But I don't personally see "opposition winning Stalin after 1936 scenario" very historical as Stalin indeed had power over all those rather weak opposition in the Party. But it's there as without any somewhat radical options game wouldn't be as exciting. I consider Trotsky's return to Soviet Union even more ahistorical than the victory of opposition over Stalin and therefore Trotsky won't probably be seen.

We/you should improve the Spanish Civil War... Suprisingly unrealistic that Catalonia isn't independent as an anarchistic/libertarian socialist state.

Another question if this Is just going to be like a Comintern Improvement Pack (I know It's in an early stage) or really treat other countries and conflicts as well. As I said before SCW needs a major improvement (I dunno if that already exists). Also you could take a look at Latin America and maybe Brazil, since just Brazil got a foretaste to turn LWR in HoI. I've got a book about how the social class arose in Brazil from a socialist perspective, so I'f you think It's a good idea I can look into that (or you could just ask an brazilian, lol).

My last suggestion is the possibility of changing the sliders. Leninist > Trotskyist, Left Wing Radical > Libertarian Socialist (In case SCW got improved), and Stalinist > something... else.

I would also love to help out to mod this but since I've started playing this game now for the first time in like 1½ years I've forgot about quite everything about modding.

I will do some improvements for the Spanish Civil War in the next version, but they will be quite minor as I am not an expert of Spanish Civil War, and neither of Latin America, unfortunately. If you were able to help me with the Spanish Civil War and/or Latin America, I would really appreciate it.

My apologies for beating this subject to death.
I'm very impressed by how quickly we've filled this page up.
Anyways, as Amallic and myself suggest we would just like to see the possibility of other situations involving Trotsky and the Left Opposition come about. As the lovely thing about this mod is the ability to choose your path you won't be forced to do anything you don't want to, either for historical or political reasons. I hope you agree with that.

Trotsky won't be able to get the power but the Left Opposition will, in some form, be able to do it.

In game terms, a Bukharin-run USSR would be pretty interesting. I don't know what position Trotsky would have in such a cabinet (I don't think control of the armed forces would go to him), but I'd expect a Bukharinist USSR to basically begin to encourage consumer goods and such via expanded market relations (less central planning, more openness, etc.) though I'm not quite sure what Bukharin's foreign policy would be. The USSR would be significantly less stable under him though considering that he'd have to contend with opportunistic ex-Tsarist elements in the army that he wouldn't be in much of a position to purge, among other things.

Bukharinist Soviet Union will get its own economy and foreign policy events. Economy events will include some kind of New NEP (New New Economic Policy, what a charming name).

 

[unmerged(54271)]

There's tons of improvements just about the SCW in other mods, you could just look at the SCW-scenario in the ordinary game to get a slight good survey over how it went in the war. But personally (or as an libertarian socialist) i think there should be more ahistorical ways, like right now there's just "OK" when the event about the communist coup appears and the anarchist movement is crushed. Thats quite boring. So is you press no on that event that could lead to the creation of the Free Workers State of Cataluña, and events that should be created and appear after that, should be about stimulating realistic anarchistic reforms. Like, agricultural reforms, school reforms, military reforms and industrial reforms.

The agricultural reforms and also industrial reforms should create some slider movement to Central Planning, a text about establishing the workers council, thus deleting the topper layer. Also about investing in barter trade, maybe trading mainly with supplies so to speak. Adding some industrial capacity too, and decreasing manpower at the same time.

School reforms should be about the memory of Ferrer Guardia, and stimulate dissent decreasing and maybe some manpower. I dunno.

The military reforms would be about kind of avoiding militarization (is that a word?), and only creating peoples militias in case of war. If the dissent is low, and the other reforms gone well, the militias should get an major morale increase.

BTW, the flag should not the the Cataluña-flag, instead the red'n'black-flag of CNT-FAI. All nationalist crap is not welcome in an anarchist society.

Also there should be some events about kicking out the church and the bourgeoise, giving some manpower decrease.

Thats just some thoughts, now I'm gonna go to sleep!

 

[Mrdie]

BTW, the flag should not the the Cataluña-flag, instead the red'n'black-flag of CNT-FAI. All nationalist crap is not welcome in an anarchist society.

I'm pretty sure the Republican Left (Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya) were more popular than the Anarchists in Catalonia, though. Besides, what if Catalonia goes independent in some other random case? Also as a note, relations betwen Luis i Companys (of the ERC) and the Anarchists were—at least in 1934—pretty good IIRC since Companys was sympathetic to the Anarchists and basically said "You can do your revolution, but first let us achieve our (Catalan) revolution." A lasting state of various Libertarian elements would probably have a Catalan flag, too. The C.N.T.-F.A.I. flag would still be prominent, though.

This can be solved by creating a C.N.T.-F.A.I. Catalan state separate from Catalonia in the game files.

 

[unmerged(54271)]

I'm pretty sure the Republican Left (Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya) were more popular than the Anarchists in Catalonia, though. Besides, what if Catalonia goes independent in some other random case? Also as a note, relations betwen Luis i Companys (of the ERC) and the Anarchists were—at least in 1934—pretty good IIRC since Companys was sympathetic to the Anarchists and basically said "You can do your revolution, but first let us achieve our (Catalan) revolution." A lasting state of various Libertarian elements would probably have a Catalan flag, too. The C.N.T.-F.A.I. flag would still be prominent, though.

This can be solved by creating a C.N.T.-F.A.I. Catalan state separate from Catalonia in the game files.

In 1937 CNT had 1.5 million members. ERC had political power yes, but CNT-FAI could easily cripple the whole society with big major strikes and from that way get more control. The question is whats the most rewarding in a long term perspective.

And there you also got a conflict to think about.

You could dream away about what could happened, and other conflicts. An independent Catalonia, with an "anarchistic reign". At the same time the rest of Spain is ruled by Stalinists with an Soviet model. Catalonia decides to spread the revolution, thereby promoting worker strikes in Spain, or something. Dissent in the republic. Spain gets mad, invades Catalonia - another civil war.

Events that could lead to that is events like "Mass flights of refugees from Republic Spain", workers who wanna leave RS to come and live free in Catalonia. If you answer NO on that event, you trigger them to fight for their own, with a bit of Catalonian help...

I will develop this ideas later!

 

[Deus Eversor]

Stalin took grip over power in three stages after Lenins death:
1 He done two triumphvirates in 20's and seized superiority over the party, then forced Trotsky to exile (thoughest possible sentence in "paradise" for workers at the moment).
2 After assasination of Kirov (probably, the almost succesful, attempt on Lenin was also Stalins doing) Stalin pushed forward the possibility of death sentences and started searching for the "responsible" - that's when Stalin gets grip over secret police, Yagoda comes in.
3 Purges of the army...
Army was the camp for Trotsky indeed, since Trotsky was the one who organised Red Army... and inside the Red Army the strongest person was Tukhachevskij, which i believe was more for Trotsky, than for any other red-politician. Trotsky gave the tool which was Red Army to Tukhachevskij, which almost crushed Poland in 1921 and pushed forward for Europe - It failed because Budienij, (supervised by noone else but Stalin himself) instead of giving a flanking attack on polish counteroffensive, wanted to keep plundering Galitzia -
and now i ask who do you think Tukahchevskij and most of the army would like more?
Stalin king of treachery and terror - some opportunist and hipocrite politicians (probably as good as todays ones) - or, the well earned organiser of Red Army and the one true to his idelogy, Trotsky?

That is why army was the last piece before Stalin was ready to kill Trotsky

i think that millitary coup would be the most probable way of Trotskys retourn

"hello Trotsky?"
"Yes"
"It's me Tukhachevskij... i arrested Stalin and declared marshal law"
"It's about time..."
"I would like you to come back and help us..."
"OK. There will be hard forming anew communist party and government, but for sure, you'll have full millitary control, as there will be a lot of work for Red Army to do"
"yay... finnaly we'll have war with someone..."

During the coups event, it would be imminent that Trotsky would retourn, but there should be a question:
A) Does Trotsky goes against whole party,
B) Or, will do the same, as Stalin did and make some political alliances(giving minister positions) and taking over the party plus arresting Stalins followers.

A) Will trigger civil war, as only most of army supports Trotsky at this time, but as soon as it ends, entire Trotskys line of events, like high interventionism, would fire.
B) Old guard gets into government, and that makes dissent... then other events would have to fire, before Trotsky would finally start doing something, and those would be like: taking power over secret police/shortening beaurocracy etc. and those would swing dissent low and high.


about other countries ass soon as Trotsky in power i think the chances of "succesful export" would be super high...

Brasil ofcourse would be more social seeing lots of soviet support...

Spain:
a) support only communists (triggers catalonia events at the beggining)
b) support Rep.

Nat wins
a) oh well...
b) keep supporting the rebels (will make nat spain dissent sick and wont allow any alliance for ~6 years)
Rep wins
a) good experience
b) coup! haxxorz!
Rep couped
a) make them ally us!
Catalon wins
a) good exp
b) send alliance proposal!

Mexico wuold have chance for revolt (surely Trotsky whould have personal interest and extensive knowlegde how and where do in Mexico)

China... siding with noone but with possibility to choose 5 options:
a) dow both (get claims on most of China and Japan)
b) dow Japan (super relations with China and get claims on entire East Asia)
c) dow China (claim on entire China)
d) support CHC (claim only on Japan/Manchria and gives IC to CHC)
c) support both and let them finnish themselves (supplies for both and IC for CHC but no immediate effects)

(+ events like China and Japan make peace/China wins Soviet/Japan wins Soviet/China wins Japan/Japan wins China/chinese civil war again/Soviets crush both/Soviets crush Japan/Soviets Crush China/CHC and Soviets wins)

coup in Romania/Yugoslavia/South America(here add some interest crossings with USA)?
rebelions in Asian Colonies?

Axis falls = Claims on Eastern Europe

and finally anti commintern coalitions
Worst case:
USA supports Japan(China's too weak will fall to Soviets/Japan anyway) and gets really aggressive in Americas(possible alliances?) making their own coups
Allies thoughen up & support Japan(Chinas too weak)(possibly joins axis)
Axis gets allies in Europe (no war with allies and Poland stands alone, probably caving into Hitlers demands ) and goes to war with Soviets as fast as they can
Japan will ally with anyone whose at war with Soviets
Soviets... possibly one sole country against rest of the world
(one + of this owuld be that world would be too much destroyed and grinded to keep large non national territories)

Best case:
Collonies are released then couped by soviets
American states are couped by Soviets
Axis falls to Soviets and most of it is inherrited
USA joins Allies
Allies makes puppet of what was left of Axis the moment the Berlin falls, but leaves it as bufor not allies (soviets keep the gain)
(countries not couped by '45 should ally with allies/couped go to comintern making ~2to1 for comintern)

 

[unmerged(78703)]

There's tons of improvements just about the SCW in other mods, you could just look at the SCW-scenario in the ordinary game to get a slight good survey over how it went in the war. But personally (or as an libertarian socialist) i think there should be more ahistorical ways, like right now there's just "OK" when the event about the communist coup appears and the anarchist movement is crushed. Thats quite boring. So is you press no on that event that could lead to the creation of the Free Workers State of Cataluña, and events that should be created and appear after that, should be about stimulating realistic anarchistic reforms. Like, agricultural reforms, school reforms, military reforms and industrial reforms.

The agricultural reforms and also industrial reforms should create some slider movement to Central Planning, a text about establishing the workers council, thus deleting the topper layer. Also about investing in barter trade, maybe trading mainly with supplies so to speak. Adding some industrial capacity too, and decreasing manpower at the same time.

School reforms should be about the memory of Ferrer Guardia, and stimulate dissent decreasing and maybe some manpower. I dunno.

The military reforms would be about kind of avoiding militarization (is that a word?), and only creating peoples militias in case of war. If the dissent is low, and the other reforms gone well, the militias should get an major morale increase.

BTW, the flag should not the the Cataluña-flag, instead the red'n'black-flag of CNT-FAI. All nationalist crap is not welcome in an anarchist society.

Also there should be some events about kicking out the church and the bourgeoise, giving some manpower decrease.

Thats just some thoughts, now I'm gonna go to sleep!

I will do Spain, or at least some parts of it, with this help provided by you and with some twisted spying on other mods. Although I first must get to Spain, as I'm still doing Mongolia that turned out to require a lot more events I had expected.

Stalin took grip over power in three stages after Lenins death:
1 He done two triumphvirates in 20's and seized superiority over the party, then forced Trotsky to exile (thoughest possible sentence in "paradise" for workers at the moment).
2 After assasination of Kirov (probably, the almost succesful, attempt on Lenin was also Stalins doing) Stalin pushed forward the possibility of death sentences and started searching for the "responsible" - that's when Stalin gets grip over secret police, Yagoda comes in.
3 Purges of the army...
Army was the camp for Trotsky indeed, since Trotsky was the one who organised Red Army... and inside the Red Army the strongest person was Tukhachevskij, which i believe was more for Trotsky, than for any other red-politician. Trotsky gave the tool which was Red Army to Tukhachevskij, which almost crushed Poland in 1921 and pushed forward for Europe - It failed because Budienij, (supervised by noone else but Stalin himself) instead of giving a flanking attack on polish counteroffensive, wanted to keep plundering Galitzia -
and now i ask who do you think Tukahchevskij and most of the army would like more?
Stalin king of treachery and terror - some opportunist and hipocrite politicians (probably as good as todays ones) - or, the well earned organiser of Red Army and the one true to his idelogy, Trotsky?

That is why army was the last piece before Stalin was ready to kill Trotsky

i think that millitary coup would be the most probable way of Trotskys retourn

"hello Trotsky?"
"Yes"
"It's me Tukhachevskij... i arrested Stalin and declared marshal law"
"It's about time..."
"I would like you to come back and help us..."
"OK. There will be hard forming anew communist party and government, but for sure, you'll have full millitary control, as there will be a lot of work for Red Army to do"
"yay... finnaly we'll have war with someone..."

During the coups event, it would be imminent that Trotsky would retourn, but there should be a question:
A) Does Trotsky goes against whole party,
B) Or, will do the same, as Stalin did and make some political alliances(giving minister positions) and taking over the party plus arresting Stalins followers.

A) Will trigger civil war, as only most of army supports Trotsky at this time, but as soon as it ends, entire Trotskys line of events, like high interventionism, would fire.
B) Old guard gets into government, and that makes dissent... then other events would have to fire, before Trotsky would finally start doing something, and those would be like: taking power over secret police/shortening beaurocracy etc. and those would swing dissent low and high.


about other countries ass soon as Trotsky in power i think the chances of "succesful export" would be super high...

Brasil ofcourse would be more social seeing lots of soviet support...

Spain:
a) support only communists (triggers catalonia events at the beggining)
b) support Rep.

Nat wins
a) oh well...
b) keep supporting the rebels (will make nat spain dissent sick and wont allow any alliance for ~6 years)
Rep wins
a) good experience
b) coup! haxxorz!
Rep couped
a) make them ally us!
Catalon wins
a) good exp
b) send alliance proposal!

Mexico wuold have chance for revolt (surely Trotsky whould have personal interest and extensive knowlegde how and where do in Mexico)

China... siding with noone but with possibility to choose 5 options:
a) dow both (get claims on most of China and Japan)
b) dow Japan (super relations with China and get claims on entire East Asia)
c) dow China (claim on entire China)
d) support CHC (claim only on Japan/Manchria and gives IC to CHC)
c) support both and let them finnish themselves (supplies for both and IC for CHC but no immediate effects)

(+ events like China and Japan make peace/China wins Soviet/Japan wins Soviet/China wins Japan/Japan wins China/chinese civil war again/Soviets crush both/Soviets crush Japan/Soviets Crush China/CHC and Soviets wins)

coup in Romania/Yugoslavia/South America(here add some interest crossings with USA)?
rebelions in Asian Colonies?

Axis falls = Claims on Eastern Europe

and finally anti commintern coalitions
Worst case:
USA supports Japan(China's too weak will fall to Soviets/Japan anyway) and gets really aggressive in Americas(possible alliances?) making their own coups
Allies thoughen up & support Japan(Chinas too weak)(possibly joins axis)
Axis gets allies in Europe (no war with allies and Poland stands alone, probably caving into Hitlers demands ) and goes to war with Soviets as fast as they can
Japan will ally with anyone whose at war with Soviets
Soviets... possibly one sole country against rest of the world
(one + of this owuld be that world would be too much destroyed and grinded to keep large non national territories)

Best case:
Collonies are released then couped by soviets
American states are couped by Soviets
Axis falls to Soviets and most of it is inherrited
USA joins Allies
Allies makes puppet of what was left of Axis the moment the Berlin falls, but leaves it as bufor not allies (soviets keep the gain)
(countries not couped by '45 should ally with allies/couped go to comintern making ~2to1 for comintern)

I don't consider civil war in Soviet Union in the 30's possible. It was, in my opinion, rather stable place after collectivization had been finished. Trotsky had very few supporters during that time and Tukhachevsky certainly wasn't one of them and thus there would occur no civil war, not in real life nor in this mod.

But this doesn't mean that there won't be Trotsky-like events and scenarios. I will do some quite similar events to those you've just described but with Bukharin, Zinovyev or someone else suitable and a little more historical leader.

 

[secretalex125]

Regarding Trotsky and such

During Lenin there have been some attempts at revolutions in Poland,Romania,Czechoslovakia and Hungary

The plan on Poland was that a revolution will be sparked and that it will continue until Germany will fall too

The plan on Romania was that Bulgaria will fall too.

 

[Deus Eversor]

i hate stalin so muuuuuuuuuch >;[

well anyway i dont think millitary would stand still the moment they know what stalin plans for them
them would a chaos of sorts break out and then Trotsky could retourn no?

 

[unmerged(145464)]

Does this mod have Trotsky takin control in mexico

 

[unmerged(78703)]

I haven't thought about Mexico yet, but probably no.

 

[Ovg]

...mod died?

 

[unmerged(78703)]

I've been busy lately and have had little time for this mod. I also considered moving the mod to HoI3 but as it doesn't work properly on my computer and is currently in some sort of beta phase I will continue development of HoI2 version.