The sorry state of Fallen Empires - Or: How our mysterious loot pinatas have lost everything that made them unique and mysterious.

[Metallichydra]

Fallen Empires are quite a common trope in science fiction, at least from what I know. Ancient and decrepit giants that once dominated the galaxy, but since then have lost the understanding of how their technology works are nothing new, but even for someone with little knowledge of most of the popular science fiction novels or movies, their role in the galaxy is quite clear from the first time you meet them.
Having been here long before your own silly little empire even had the ability to comprehend the vast cosmos, they have amassed technological marvels during their eons of existence, and they are a force to be reckoned with. So advanced is their technology that even when you do manage to shove them fully into their graves, you are unable to replicate their arcane machinery, except for a few select ones.

However, in recent years, Fallen Empires have lost some of their enigmatic status. No longer are they mysteries to be uncovered. Instead they are trivial caches of shallowly-buried technological insignificance. No longer are they imposing guardians of a forgotten age, and though many probably will tell me that Fallen Empires never were anything more than glorified loot pinatas, I think it is undeniable that they have lost a lot of their uniqueness and narrative value during these last few (many) updates and DLC.
So let me start my rant with

First Contact
Or rather, the lack of it.
Having observed you for quite some time, or so they claim, the Fallen Empires are unique among the empires that populate your galaxy in that they are able to speak to you directly from the moment you meet them. Mostly this is fine. After all, they do need to tell you off about colonizing those shining planets that just so happen to have 100% habitability for your species, but as it currently stands they are a bit too eager to contact you. It is not uncommon for one of them to contact you from the other side of the galaxy, sometimes before you even encounter any other species, maybe even before you see any spaceborne fauna. While this isn't really a problem for those who have played the game for a long time, I don't think it is very good for new players, and as mentioned before, this is in direct contradiction with the way they are supposed to behave.
Knowing very little of the inner workings, it is nevertheless my assumption that Fallen Empires contact you the moment you enter their sensor range ... which is quite high. I would suggest that Fallen Empires, in line with their isolationist behavior, contact you only when one of you science ships enter a system neighboring one of their own systems. This way you're less likely to stumble upon them on the doorstep of your own home system. Perhaps to help new and old players alike with identifying the presence of Fallen Empires, systems with tomb worlds, ruined planets and broken megastructures could be scattered about in their vicinity. But I digress. Their problem extend far beyond this singular issue.
Loot Pinata
Is what the Fallen Empires currently are. You unlock dark matter from them, you get some pops, some planets, and maybe even some Fallen Empire buildings, most of which are completely useless due to you picking cosmogenesis or simply because of their lackluster power level. As it currently stands, Fallen Empires technological level is quite unimpressive. Dark Matter components can be acquired in many other, often safer, ways. As mentioned, the buildings likewise can be yours for the low low price of 500 minor artifacts or whatever the local artifact exchange charges for a blueprint, if you haven't already gotten Enigmatic Engineering or Cosmogenesis.
And even if you ignore how easy it is to get your hands on these unmarvels of technology, they aren't even that impressive anymore. The common consensus is that shields are useless, and the reactor isn't all that useful unless you're packing your ships full of shields. The only thing left is the Dark Matter Thrusters and the Dark Matter cloaking device.
Frankly, the value of Fallen Empires have been in freefall ever since the release of this game. Which neatly leads me to the next point:

Their Worlds
Fallen Empires gotta live somewhere, and since they got here early, they vacuumed up all of the good real estate. Fallen Empires boast some pretty good systems, especially the Keepers of Knowledge with their ecumenopoli. At least if you don't have the megacorp DLC. If you have all DLC, then really, there's nothing of value here. You'll have paved over every single inch of natural planet in your quest for even greater amounts of alloys long before you even found the Keepers, and that's saying something with how happy they are to come knocking on your door about your car's extended warranty.
Rumor says they once upon a time had ringworlds, and that these ringworlds where unique to them. How could a new empire such as yours build such marvels of technology when the Fallen Empire probably took millennea to complete such a massive project? Then came along Utopia and now today we're making them in less than twenty years!
Now, in season 9 or whatever battle pass we've reached, they have nothing unique. Most player empires will have superseded them when it comes to living space. Again, what was once unobtainable is now something you do before the midgame.
But hey, at least they had their ships for themselves until
Cosmogenesis
Came along.
Unsurprising to all, I will now rant a little about cosmogenesis. This near-mandatory non-crisis ascension perk is really just a build-a-fallen-empire, and while I acknowledge that as the purpose of it, I nevertheless must complain. I won't go into detail, because Cosmogenesis deserves thrice as many discussions than Fallen Empires do, if not more, but when Cosmogesis was released as part of The Machien Age, I don't think I am wrong to believe that most players was expecting the Fallen Empires to react to anyone trying to replicate their ancient technology. Except they never seem to do. Maybe sometimes, but that is a rare occassion. I for one has never had a Fallen Empire declare war on me, or try to rally the galaxy against me for trying to perform experiments that probably break the geneva convention three-hundred times over. Instead they are content to let you catch up, and even start making dragon-scale armor without ever having seen a dragon before.
Really, they don't have much going for them
It isn't just Cosmogenesis. They never really do anything at all. This is especially noticeable with how often the new Fallen Hive interact with you compared to the rest of the loot pinatas (Even if their last three requests all were to fight the same 1k fleet power experimental fleet, all before year 2204 because of their isolationist agenda, that apparently includes top-of-the-line sensors and a first-contact-at-all-costs protocol.

What I am trying to say is that Fallen Empires have truly fallen from grace. No longer do they have a single shred of unreplicateable technology, and they don't even do much for us narratively. If anything, their only purpose seem to be to provide a constant stream of confused new players coming to reddit or these forums to ask how the ai empire has 200k fleet power in year 2210, and why they are so angry, which just so happened when they colonized a little glowing planet with 100% habitability for their species.

Now, don't get me wrong. We shouldn't remove Ringworlds from the Galactic Wonders ascension perk, nor should dark matter technologies be unobtainable. But Fallen Empires desperately needs something going for them. Maybe just some unique worlds, or unobtainable Dark Matter armor. Or perhaps they should have more and better loot, but more power so they can actually do something about these new empires trying to replicate their class 4 singularities with a brain-hotel and a bunch of researchers some 25 years into the game.
But please, can the Fallen Empires get something going for them?

 

[Drachasor]

Maybe they should each have some kind of unique insane tech that really defines part of what made them such a major power. Something that took them centuries or more to develop.

 

[Trigaea]

FEs really are the worst victims of power creep.

They deserve better than to just have their fleet power inflated every few years.

 

[Annihilat0r]

I wish I could upvote this 100 times. Sad times for FEs.

 

[Calvax]

Maybe they should each have some kind of unique insane tech that really defines part of what made them such a major power. Something that took them centuries or more to develop.

Yeah perhaps those unique techs could be in the form of unique ships with different loadouts and unique buildings that give insane resources. Oh wait...

 

[Drachasor]

Yeah perhaps those unique techs could be in the form of unique ships with different loadouts and unique buildings that give insane resources. Oh wait...

No, I mean each Empire literally has a defining tech unique to it that even other FEs don't have and is impossible to get by any means.

 

[Calvax]

No, I mean each Empire literally has a defining tech unique to it that even other FEs don't have and is impossible to get by any means.

I know. My point was that they used to have this and then the game power creeped and gave it all to the player (other than the ships you can now get all their tech with one mundane perk!). So if anything new was introduced I'd cynically expect it to go the same way and eventually end up given to the player.

 

[Ikael]

Fallen Empires have been in need of a revision for a long, long time. The addition of the fractured hivemind is great, but so it would be for other Fallen Empires to reach that level of intrigue and interaction.

Not that I am opposed to being able to reach their heights (that is a pretty cool part of the Cosmogenesis fantasy after all), but we really need more ways to interact with them, more strange, enigmatic quests and demands, and more interaction with the rest of the game content in general, starting with Cosmogenesis.

As for some ideas about how they could be spiced up:

> Fallen Xenophobes never contact you, requiring a special project to unlock diplomacy with them instead
> Fallen Xenophobes demanding the biggest federation of the galaxy to disband -or else.
> Unique espionage operations against each fallen empire getting unlocked by the subterfuge tree
> Fallen spiritualists allowing the owner of a certain relic to colonize their previously forbidden worlds
> Fallen spiritualists revealing their covenant once you establish yours (and thus, gaining either a powerful ally or a mortal enemy)
> Ancient caretakers requesting you to collect at least one species from each phenotype, with several rewards and punishments
> Ancient caretakers reacting to your machine ascension, determining whether it would be good or bad for their particular project

Not to mention that there are many other possible fallen empires left to explore (fallen militarist empires, fallen pacifists, fallen egalitarians, fallen wilderness, etc, etc).

 

[Drachasor]

I know. My point was that they used to have this and then the game power creeped and gave it all to the player (other than the ships you can now get all their tech with one mundane perk!). So if anything new was introduced I'd cynically expect it to go the same way and eventually end up given to the player.

I mean, they've literally never had this before. They've had unique tech they all shared. I think making each FE more unique makes it less likely to be easily copied in the future at least.

 

[Nyrael]

Cosmogenesis in general should be riskier than it currently is. It gets less risks than Nemesis, despite being far more powerful of a Crisis.
And I don't mean only external threats, even internally there should be trheats from rebels and independent scientists doing their own even more dangerous projects.

As for Fallen Empires, I said it in afew other posts, but I feel like they should have another phase between Fallen Empire and Awakened Empire that is active during the Midgame where they start interacting with lesser empires in their "de-jure territory". Xenophiles would go on tourism excursions and mess with your politics, Spiritualists would start spreading religion, Materialists would bully scientifically advanced empires, etc.

 

[fourteenfour]

As for some ideas about how they could be spiced up:

> Fallen Xenophobes never contact you, requiring a special project to unlock diplomacy with them instead
> Fallen Xenophobes demanding the biggest federation of the galaxy to disband -or else.
> Unique espionage operations against each fallen empire getting unlocked by the subterfuge tree
> Fallen spiritualists allowing the owner of a certain relic to colonize their previously forbidden worlds
> Fallen spiritualists revealing their covenant once you establish yours (and thus, gaining either a powerful ally or a mortal enemy)
> Ancient caretakers requesting you to collect at least one species from each phenotype, with several rewards and punishments
> Ancient caretakers reacting to your machine ascension, determining whether it would be good or bad for their particular project

Not to mention that there are many other possible fallen empires left to explore (fallen militarist empires, fallen pacifists, fallen egalitarians, fallen wilderness, etc, etc).

I would spice them up from another direction

> Fallen Empires randomly execute high order espionage against empires who they deem growing to fast or a threat
> Fallen Empires cannot have espionage used against them till empires have sufficient tech and go through event realizing the FEs were doing it all along
> Fallen Empires infrequently harass empires with opposing ethics with random attacks as per above (MOO's Andromedans)
> Fallen Empires indirectly aiding faltering empires who are ethically aligned - more on this later
> Fallen Empires that activate when a related fallen empire is attacked - as in they are in this together
> Fallen Empires can access any remote worm hole or active gateway at will - and return by them too - tech is not available to players
> Fallen Empire technology cannot be garnered from debris until the empire is at top tier tech or has correct perk
> Fallen Empires that protect certain types of space creatures from complete extinction - the old drop in a fleet and wipe out of the offending fleet.
> Fallen Empires can deposit space creatures where they were not before - sort of a road block to an empire they dislike
> Fallen Empires can use storms to blunt or benefit empires they do not like

Key is that random events where they reach out and destroy have to be throttled heavily so as when the player is the target they do not feel as if the game is targeting them and only them. So I would use a point system, the FE builds up action points it can expend on various activities. Beneficial activities can occur every four years (pick a term) and are cheaper than offensive types. Espionage events would cost points but operate separately from other events. Direct offensive events from storm placement, plopping down space creatures, or hit and run colony or fleet attack, would be expensive, not allowed against same empire twice in a row, and such.

As for the more on this later, I think under the covers that FEs could be used to artificially boost regular empires that are struggling. this could be by random events as simple as removing all blockers on a colony, dropping a random gift of needed resources, to clearing out a system of lower tier space creatures; as in they would never remove space dragons but amoeba are on the menu. Now they would never send a fleet to directly aid the faltering empire if their systems are being attacked by another but on the very rare occasion depending on the strength of the attacker they could attack an intransit fleet provided it is more than a few systems from any starbase owned by the attacker. The idea behind this is to provide a story based reason an empire just doesn't crumble. The FEs won't always do this - see above about action points - but they could.

 

[Calvax]

I mean, they've literally never had this before. They've had unique tech they all shared. I think making each FE more unique makes it less likely to be easily copied in the future at least.

You're still misunderstanding me. I'm not disagreeing, I'm pointing out that Fallen Empires used to have plenty of unique things. They had unique ships and unique buildings that the player couldn't have unless they conquered the FE or used special relics, and even then they couldn't build more. Then cosmogenesis took that away so that empires who went down that crisis path could get FE buildings and ships, which arguably was fine since you had to pick the crisis but now it's a free for all where you can get the techs by picking one simple perk.

My point is that adding more unique stuff to FEs will likely result in the same cycle sadly. The devs could do it, then some time later they give it to the players as part of some random balance change or new perk.

 

[passeris]

Instead of letting themselves be manhandled by an overgrown child, FEs should save face when losing a war against the player, and disappear into their own pocket dimension (think Greg Bear's Eon), ascend into the Shroud, or detonate their planets then send a message from beyond the galaxy.

This would show they are still far beyond your reach, and don't really care about your empire's parochial conquest. And it would set the scene for some cool future DLC.

 

[Calvax]

Instead of letting themselves be manhandled by an overgrown child, FEs should save face when losing a war against the player, and disappear into their own pocket dimension (think Greg Bear's Eon), ascend into the Shroud, or detonate their planets then send a message from beyond the galaxy.

This would show they are still far beyond your reach, and don't really care about your empire's parochial conquest. And it would set the scene for some cool future DLC.

Tbh that sounds like the type of thing they've probably already done in the past and can no longer do, because these empires are just the remnants that have forgotten how their own technology works.

 

[Swarm lover]

Fallen Empires are quite a common trope in science fiction, at least from what I know. Ancient and decrepit giants that once dominated the galaxy, but since then have lost the understanding of how their technology works are nothing new, but even for someone with little knowledge of most of the popular science fiction novels or movies, their role in the galaxy is quite clear from the first time you meet them.
Having been here long before your own silly little empire even had the ability to comprehend the vast cosmos, they have amassed technological marvels during their eons of existence, and they are a force to be reckoned with. So advanced is their technology that even when you do manage to shove them fully into their graves, you are unable to replicate their arcane machinery, except for a few select ones.

However, in recent years, Fallen Empires have lost some of their enigmatic status. No longer are they mysteries to be uncovered. Instead they are trivial caches of shallowly-buried technological insignificance. No longer are they imposing guardians of a forgotten age, and though many probably will tell me that Fallen Empires never were anything more than glorified loot pinatas, I think it is undeniable that they have lost a lot of their uniqueness and narrative value during these last few (many) updates and DLC.
So let me start my rant with

First Contact
Or rather, the lack of it.
Having observed you for quite some time, or so they claim, the Fallen Empires are unique among the empires that populate your galaxy in that they are able to speak to you directly from the moment you meet them. Mostly this is fine. After all, they do need to tell you off about colonizing those shining planets that just so happen to have 100% habitability for your species, but as it currently stands they are a bit too eager to contact you. It is not uncommon for one of them to contact you from the other side of the galaxy, sometimes before you even encounter any other species, maybe even before you see any spaceborne fauna. While this isn't really a problem for those who have played the game for a long time, I don't think it is very good for new players, and as mentioned before, this is in direct contradiction with the way they are supposed to behave.
Knowing very little of the inner workings, it is nevertheless my assumption that Fallen Empires contact you the moment you enter their sensor range ... which is quite high. I would suggest that Fallen Empires, in line with their isolationist behavior, contact you only when one of you science ships enter a system neighboring one of their own systems. This way you're less likely to stumble upon them on the doorstep of your own home system. Perhaps to help new and old players alike with identifying the presence of Fallen Empires, systems with tomb worlds, ruined planets and broken megastructures could be scattered about in their vicinity. But I digress. Their problem extend far beyond this singular issue.
Loot Pinata
Is what the Fallen Empires currently are. You unlock dark matter from them, you get some pops, some planets, and maybe even some Fallen Empire buildings, most of which are completely useless due to you picking cosmogenesis or simply because of their lackluster power level. As it currently stands, Fallen Empires technological level is quite unimpressive. Dark Matter components can be acquired in many other, often safer, ways. As mentioned, the buildings likewise can be yours for the low low price of 500 minor artifacts or whatever the local artifact exchange charges for a blueprint, if you haven't already gotten Enigmatic Engineering or Cosmogenesis.
And even if you ignore how easy it is to get your hands on these unmarvels of technology, they aren't even that impressive anymore. The common consensus is that shields are useless, and the reactor isn't all that useful unless you're packing your ships full of shields. The only thing left is the Dark Matter Thrusters and the Dark Matter cloaking device.
Frankly, the value of Fallen Empires have been in freefall ever since the release of this game. Which neatly leads me to the next point:

Their Worlds
Fallen Empires gotta live somewhere, and since they got here early, they vacuumed up all of the good real estate. Fallen Empires boast some pretty good systems, especially the Keepers of Knowledge with their ecumenopoli. At least if you don't have the megacorp DLC. If you have all DLC, then really, there's nothing of value here. You'll have paved over every single inch of natural planet in your quest for even greater amounts of alloys long before you even found the Keepers, and that's saying something with how happy they are to come knocking on your door about your car's extended warranty.
Rumor says they once upon a time had ringworlds, and that these ringworlds where unique to them. How could a new empire such as yours build such marvels of technology when the Fallen Empire probably took millennea to complete such a massive project? Then came along Utopia and now today we're making them in less than twenty years!
Now, in season 9 or whatever battle pass we've reached, they have nothing unique. Most player empires will have superseded them when it comes to living space. Again, what was once unobtainable is now something you do before the midgame.
But hey, at least they had their ships for themselves until
Cosmogenesis
Came along.
Unsurprising to all, I will now rant a little about cosmogenesis. This near-mandatory non-crisis ascension perk is really just a build-a-fallen-empire, and while I acknowledge that as the purpose of it, I nevertheless must complain. I won't go into detail, because Cosmogenesis deserves thrice as many discussions than Fallen Empires do, if not more, but when Cosmogesis was released as part of The Machien Age, I don't think I am wrong to believe that most players was expecting the Fallen Empires to react to anyone trying to replicate their ancient technology. Except they never seem to do. Maybe sometimes, but that is a rare occassion. I for one has never had a Fallen Empire declare war on me, or try to rally the galaxy against me for trying to perform experiments that probably break the geneva convention three-hundred times over. Instead they are content to let you catch up, and even start making dragon-scale armor without ever having seen a dragon before.
Really, they don't have much going for them
It isn't just Cosmogenesis. They never really do anything at all. This is especially noticeable with how often the new Fallen Hive interact with you compared to the rest of the loot pinatas (Even if their last three requests all were to fight the same 1k fleet power experimental fleet, all before year 2204 because of their isolationist agenda, that apparently includes top-of-the-line sensors and a first-contact-at-all-costs protocol.

What I am trying to say is that Fallen Empires have truly fallen from grace. No longer do they have a single shred of unreplicateable technology, and they don't even do much for us narratively. If anything, their only purpose seem to be to provide a constant stream of confused new players coming to reddit or these forums to ask how the ai empire has 200k fleet power in year 2210, and why they are so angry, which just so happened when they colonized a little glowing planet with 100% habitability for their species.

Now, don't get me wrong. We shouldn't remove Ringworlds from the Galactic Wonders ascension perk, nor should dark matter technologies be unobtainable. But Fallen Empires desperately needs something going for them. Maybe just some unique worlds, or unobtainable Dark Matter armor. Or perhaps they should have more and better loot, but more power so they can actually do something about these new empires trying to replicate their class 4 singularities with a brain-hotel and a bunch of researchers some 25 years into the game.
But please, can the Fallen Empires get something going for them?

1) I do agree that they are a bit too eager to contact you

2) To me they always been loot pinatas even in the old versions of the game

3) I do agree that their worlds have fallen off but dont really see how to fix that without limiting the player too much.

4) I do agree that cosmogensis needs some more risk like a fallen empire waking up specifically to fight you only. (Special type of awakened where they fall back to dormancy once you are dealt with). Heck i feel like any crisis path should have the chance to cause this type of awakening among one of the 4 base fallen empires at least.

5) I can somewhat get what you are saying and i do recall in the older versions of the game where the xenophile and materialists were very active in galactic affairs acting as a semi police force. Xenophiles made genocidal empires slow down through threat of intervention and the materialist would attack you if you didnt stay away from dangerous research. The xenophobes and the spiritualists were the ones that sat around and did nothing. I do feel like they should interact more with the regular empires especially as the game goes on.

 

[Calvax]

4) I do agree that cosmogensis needs some more risk like a fallen empire waking up specifically to fight you only. (Special type of awakened where they fall back to dormancy once you are dealt with). Heck i feel like any crisis path should have the chance to cause this type of awakening among one of the 4 base fallen empires at least.

IMO cosmogenesis needs to be more of a crisis. You shouldn’t be able to pick it and sit back and get all the perks. Like you should have to do several applied infinity theses with the risks of how much these can damage you and relations, and the galaxy should declare war on you once the needle is built like for nemesis and the engine.

 

[Swarm lover]

IMO cosmogenesis needs to be more of a crisis. You shouldn’t be able to pick it and sit back and get all the perks. Like you should have to do several applied infinity theses with the risks of how much these can damage you and relations, and the galaxy should declare war on you once the needle is built like for nemesis and the engine.

I agree in a sense.
I personnally feel like the lathe should be mandatory rather than be an option, they also removed the "safe" amount that wouldnt die in it so now you actually gotta keep feeding it.
You already have to have done 2 appied infinity statements to go to the last stage so thats off the list.

Not sure i agree that the whole universe should declare you crisis automatically but feel like doing a several thesis and several of them going wrong should push the ai hard to declare you crisis or something. (They dont fully get what you are doing) However, i feel like the materialist FE should awaken and fight you specifically (if they arent there one of the other FE should pick up the slack) because they understand very well what you are doing and dont like it. Plus would fit, get and mess with fallen empire tech without the trial and error and "lessons" they went through expect one of them to step up.

 

[Ikael]

I would spice them up from another direction

> Fallen Empires randomly execute high order espionage against empires who they deem growing to fast or a threat
> Fallen Empires cannot have espionage used against them till empires have sufficient tech and go through event realizing the FEs were doing it all along
> Fallen Empires infrequently harass empires with opposing ethics with random attacks as per above (MOO's Andromedans)
> Fallen Empires indirectly aiding faltering empires who are ethically aligned - more on this later
> Fallen Empires that activate when a related fallen empire is attacked - as in they are in this together
> Fallen Empires can access any remote worm hole or active gateway at will - and return by them too - tech is not available to players
> Fallen Empire technology cannot be garnered from debris until the empire is at top tier tech or has correct perk
> Fallen Empires that protect certain types of space creatures from complete extinction - the old drop in a fleet and wipe out of the offending fleet.
> Fallen Empires can deposit space creatures where they were not before - sort of a road block to an empire they dislike
> Fallen Empires can use storms to blunt or benefit empires they do not like

You know, that would actually be quite awesome too. I especially like FE acting like geopolitical "balancers", helping struggling empires of the same affinity (or punishing dominant ones, hence my suggestion of Fallen Xenophobes threatening big Federations).

In either case, I have seen lots of good proposals here. Just applying a fraction of them would make Fallen Empires far more interesting, and along with them, the mid-late game as well.

 

[Foxosaur]

I agree there isn't enough mystery left about them, they and the war in heaven just need a revamp and it be more dynamic based on who is involved and again... Cetana versus them should be a bit more... I don't know... immersive but I made a separate suggestion about them.

I think for me, it might be exciting to hear of events where they have done something extraordinary like aggregating their dimensional fabricators for a unknown purpose - a regional affecting event that will consume an entire system all on a whim of their own experiment. Something a player can take part in, acknowledge, interrupt or ignore.

That kind of thing.

That way the player gets the sense of danger but not full scale crisis level of needing to act. Obsfuscate some or all of the information or keep some of it unknown (less can be more) with a random outcome.

Again, the event could trigger a situation where nearly friendly empires will join a coalition to stop them, something that's cooperative and immersive.

Personally I didn't like the idea of giving out their buildings and was a mistake but trying to replicate them and reverse engineer them, I can get on board with but it may be should improve what you have rather then take on the actual design.


That for me is high up on the list.

 

[grommile]

I would spice them up from another direction

FEs being the agents of the God of Rubberbanding/Blueshelling sounds... disagreeable.