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Exactly im fine with them being more active or learning more about their lore etc but them deciding to punish players that are doing good or demanding big federations disband no thank you. THat sounds anti fun by a huge margin. It would be like if you are playing a FPS you in the lead and because of that some super bot spawns in to kill you to bring you back down.
You know, that would actually be quite awesome too. I especially like FE acting like geopolitical "balancers", helping struggling empires of the same affinity (or punishing dominant ones, hence my suggestion of Fallen Xenophobes threatening big Federations).
In either case, I have seen lots of good proposals here. Just applying a fraction of them would make Fallen Empires far more interesting, and along with them, the mid-late game as well.
Cant agree at all with that. Them deciding to punish players that are doing good is not a good idea at all. Especially having a big federation outside of vassalizing everyone is already hard to get and now you want the xenophobe to demand you disband just because? No thanks.
Cant agree at all with that. Them deciding to punish players that are doing good is not a good idea at all. Especially having a big federation outside of vassalizing everyone is already hard to get and now you want the xenophobe to demand you disband just because? No thanks.
It would surely beat the whole boring mid-late game where vassal and federation blocks last forever and ever (and I love playing as a federation builder myself). As for punishing players who are doing good, that is precisely the problem with the game: it is simply way too snowbally as it is. Most games are decided long before you reach the end of the tech tree, and even the things that are supposed to be punishing or risky, they are not (Cosmogenesis, for starters).
It would surely beat the whole boring mid-late game where vassal and federation blocks last forever and ever (and I love playing as a federation builder myself). As for punishing players who are doing good, that is precisely the problem with the game: it is simply way too snowbally as it is. Most games are decided long before you reach the end of the tech tree, and even the things that are supposed to be punishing or risky, they are not (Cosmogenesis, for starters).
Still not agreeing, i would much prefer them to get involved organically with something i did like how you knew that researching dangerous tech in older versions would get the materialists pounding on your door. Snowballing is indeed a problem but this is definitely not the solution plus i can see this being super easy to exploit, make sure you are doing overly good, once mid game hits and they pick their target immediately attack the same target, kick your tech into gear and voila got around it.
The mid game and late game do need more upheaval but not like this at all or any spontaneous civil wars. Would be like playing crusader kings and because the game decides you are doing too good because you payed attention its gonna force a crisis on you at that specific date. Would feel cheap and unfun as i know exactly when that kind of event can fire and just prepare for it.
I do agree cosmogenesis needs more risk and in my opinion the materialists FE should make good on their threats and heck going with a special awakening and targeting you specifically. Heck i would say any crisis path should have a decent chance of causing a FE to wake up specifically to counter you.
Certainly hope so. THe machine and hive mind have all the "unique content" while the original 4 have all become hermits. But wonder what they could give theme exactly.
Fallen Empires and the galactic community
FE to join but abstain from (almost) every proposal, refusing to join the council or obey laws but being ominous in the background (listed last and greyed out but still showing-off their high diplomatic weight as they sit out each resolution). Each FE would have one line of resolutions or specific resolution they are interested in (suddenly communicating with you to influence your vote and turn in any favours they have given you) and resolutions that they can propose afterwards if conditions are met that reveals some of their true political goals.
Fallen Empires and espionage
FE having max possible encryption and a special set of expensive operations available against them. Operation expected to fail (at first) but each failure can teach you something (and annoy the FE a little if you fail badly or try to steal tech). Perhaps revealing information that they deem trivial such as the location of distant caches of resources/technology, old sites now long forgotten by most or buried underground (new anomalies/dig sties), or bits of lore that allow you to understand them better (+5 max infiltration, intel for ship details).
Fallen Empires and Buildings/Megastructures
FE each have a goal they achieved or failed to achieve represented by a unique buildings/features/planets or special megastructure/ruined megastructures. Gargantuan efforts that took thousands of years like Deepthought from Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, Magrathea hinting that they are responsible for constructing large numbers of the planets we see, or a Hyperlane Generator that has lore suggesting it is responsible for the current layout of the hyperlane network.
Fallen Empires and Ships
Each FE given a carefully curated strength and weakness, vulnerable to a specific weapon with stats and equipment working backwards from that to encourage you to fight each FE with a different optimal fleet composition and loadout. I'd also like for each FE to have a special Tier 6 archaeotech variant that is extravagant in costs and makes normal archaeotech look like stone tools we found to regain some of their former technological mystery.
I believe the FE's that contact you from across the galaxy do so because there are wormholes that put them within a few jumps. As far as first contact goes, I don't have a problem with the timing of it as it happens now, but I wish we received less information. We should receive their name, what they look like and their borders and that is it. Obviously, there are plenty of clues that will allow you to eventually determine which one they are but at least you wouldn't know right from the start what you could and couldn't get away with. The holy worlds shouldn't glow and we shouldn't know their names for them (The AI empires already don't seem to have this knowledge).
As far as their tech goes, I agree that it has become much too easy to get it, with a few exceptions. I think Dark Matter energy production should be easier to obtain OR dark matter resource extraction should be much harder to figure out...one or the other. As for Cosmogenesis, I like it for what it is, basically building your own FE and sometimes that is a fun game. Yes it is OP but it is meant to be. However, I learned from playing it that even when I obtained the FE buildings going that route, I rarely took the time to micromanage changing all of my planets to the new buildings because I didn't really need them at that point.
I really the War in Heaven could get some love. I can't remember the last time I saw that. Part of the problem might be always playing on 600 star galaxies means less FE's in the galaxy so less chance for the war to trigger. But even in the three 1000 star games I've managed to get into the mid game on version 4, I had the Khan twice and nothing the 3rd game.
I really the War in Heaven could get some love. I can't remember the last time I saw that. Part of the problem might be always playing on 600 star galaxies means less FE's in the galaxy so less chance for the war to trigger. But even in the three 1000 star games I've managed to get into the mid game on version 4, I had the Khan twice and nothing the 3rd game.
Fallen Empires and the galactic community
FE to join but abstain from (almost) every proposal, refusing to join the council or obey laws but being ominous in the background (listed last and greyed out but still showing-off their high diplomatic weight as they sit out each resolution). Each FE would have one line of resolutions or specific resolution they are interested in (suddenly communicating with you to influence your vote and turn in any favours they have given you) and resolutions that they can propose afterwards if conditions are met that reveals some of their true political goals.
Fallen Empires and espionage
FE having max possible encryption and a special set of expensive operations available against them. Operation expected to fail (at first) but each failure can teach you something (and annoy the FE a little if you fail badly or try to steal tech). Perhaps revealing information that they deem trivial such as the location of distant caches of resources/technology, old sites now long forgotten by most or buried underground (new anomalies/dig sties), or bits of lore that allow you to understand them better (+5 max infiltration, intel for ship details).
Fallen Empires and Buildings/Megastructures
FE each have a goal they achieved or failed to achieve represented by a unique buildings/features/planets or special megastructure/ruined megastructures. Gargantuan efforts that took thousands of years like Deepthought from Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, Magrathea hinting that they are responsible for constructing large numbers of the planets we see, or a Hyperlane Generator that has lore suggesting it is responsible for the current layout of the hyperlane network.
Fallen Empires and Ships
Each FE given a carefully curated strength and weakness, vulnerable to a specific weapon with stats and equipment working backwards from that to encourage you to fight each FE with a different optimal fleet composition and loadout. I'd also like for each FE to have a special Tier 6 archaeotech variant that is extravagant in costs and makes normal archaeotech look like stone tools we found to regain some of their former technological mystery.
Hard disagree on the first point. THeir whole shtick is that they are hasbins and just want to live in their little corner of the galaxy and dont care about anyone else. So having them just join the gal com really doesnt fit them.
I do agree espionage could be interesting if done right both against them and them against you.
They kind of already have ruined stuff that hints at their failures like the planet "the mistake" i think the materialist or spiritualist have. But definitely would like ot be able to learn what it involved.
They already work that way each FE uses a very specific loadout so if you know what each is packing its much easier to take em out.
I believe the FE's that contact you from across the galaxy do so because there are wormholes that put them within a few jumps. As far as first contact goes, I don't have a problem with the timing of it as it happens now, but I wish we received less information. We should receive their name, what they look like and their borders and that is it. Obviously, there are plenty of clues that will allow you to eventually determine which one they are but at least you wouldn't know right from the start what you could and couldn't get away with. The holy worlds shouldn't glow and we shouldn't know their names for them (The AI empires already don't seem to have this knowledge).
As far as their tech goes, I agree that it has become much too easy to get it, with a few exceptions. I think Dark Matter energy production should be easier to obtain OR dark matter resource extraction should be much harder to figure out...one or the other. As for Cosmogenesis, I like it for what it is, basically building your own FE and sometimes that is a fun game. Yes it is OP but it is meant to be. However, I learned from playing it that even when I obtained the FE buildings going that route, I rarely took the time to micromanage changing all of my planets to the new buildings because I didn't really need them at that point.
I really the War in Heaven could get some love. I can't remember the last time I saw that. Part of the problem might be always playing on 600 star galaxies means less FE's in the galaxy so less chance for the war to trigger. But even in the three 1000 star games I've managed to get into the mid game on version 4, I had the Khan twice and nothing the 3rd game.
I do agree with the war in heaven maybe needing a bit of love. But would probably need to rework war to have changing participants outside of death aswell as multi front wars.
Hard disagree on the first point. THeir whole shtick is that they are hasbins and just want to live in their little corner of the galaxy and dont care about anyone else. So having them just join the gal com really doesnt fit them.
Have you ever seen Babylon 5? (it's old but had some strong character moments - Londo and G'Kar were great in every scene together)
I see Babylon 5 as potential inspiration for Fallen Empires, in that series the two ancient alien races (Vorlon and Shadow) subtly interact with ambassadors on the eponymous space station and eventually the two old races fully awaken and start a big war in heaven situation. The Fallen Empires in Stellaris are an Elder Race that is "...a mere shadow of what it once was", I assume that's just a coincidence but could easily be a reference to the Shadow war.
Being aloof any mysterious doesn't mean they don't care or interact with other races - in Stellaris FEs send you lots of missions for a race that doesn't care about anyone else (giving innoculations, requesting pops, being annoyed when you do something they don't like). I don't think they should care about every law that is passed, but there could be a resolution they care about enough to contact you, and mechanically they'd need to be in the community to propose or push through secret resolutions doing something disruptive to the younger races (even if they abstain on every other resolution and ignore the council/laws).
I do agree espionage could be interesting if done right both against them and them against you.
They kind of already have ruined stuff that hints at their failures like the planet "the mistake" i think the materialist or spiritualist have. But definitely would like ot be able to learn what it involved.
They already work that way each FE uses a very specific loadout so if you know what each is packing its much easier to take em out.
True, but I still think the loadouts could be a little more distinct.
The FEs have different loadouts, but having the same number of armour, shield, H and PD components makes ships seem similar to me even if the exact weapons and hardening values differ. I think I'd prefer if each FE had a stronger theme including new perdition beam variants (only the colour of the beam matters when it kills anything it hits in one shot).
Looking at the wiki (and comparing with a save to see it's up-to-date) all the FE Enigma battlecruiser designs all have 4 Large Shields, 4 Large Armour and some hardening. In game the Enigmatic Observers have 30% shield hardening and an extra 15% armour hardening as well, but I'm not sure where that's from. The number of shield and armour components could vary a little more to make each FE more obviously weak to a specific weapon, for example:
Weak to Plasma/Launchers: 4 Crystal plating, 3 Armour, 1 Shield + Living Reactive Armour
Weak to Torpedoes/Missiles: 4 Armour + 4 Shields + Living Reactive Armour
Weak to Kinetic artillery/Autocannons: 2 Armour + 6 Shields + 2 Shield Hardeners
Weak to Disruptors/bypass weapons: More Escorts + Shield capacitors
Also I want there to be a way to more easily see ship details for races we can't infiltrate (FE, Pirates, space creatures etc.) rather than looking at the wiki or pausing and hovering over a random ship in the fleet and waiting for the tooltip to expand to include all 23 ship modifiers to see the shield and armour hardeneing values at the top and bottom of the seemingly random list of modifiers (this feels like a bit of an oversight when most of the information was hidden behind the 100 intel requirement).
It's not that important, but each FE having a weapon component unique to them would add a little spice like a superpower Null Void Beam (long range anti-shield), a better Cloud Lightning L-slot component, a different type of Launcher (Gluon launcher), a super Cutting Laser (anti-hull), protective/repair drones, disruptor PD etc.
Have you ever seen Babylon 5? (it's old but had some strong character moments - Londo and G'Kar were great in every scene together)
I see Babylon 5 as potential inspiration for Fallen Empires, in that series the two ancient alien races (Vorlon and Shadow) subtly interact with ambassadors on the eponymous space station and eventually the two old races fully awaken and start a big war in heaven situation. The Fallen Empires in Stellaris are an Elder Race that is "...a mere shadow of what it once was", I assume that's just a coincidence but could easily be a reference to the Shadow war.
Being aloof any mysterious doesn't mean they don't care or interact with other races - in Stellaris FEs send you lots of missions for a race that doesn't care about anyone else (giving innoculations, requesting pops, being annoyed when you do something they don't like). I don't think they should care about every law that is passed, but there could be a resolution they care about enough to contact you, and mechanically they'd need to be in the community to propose or push through secret resolutions doing something disruptive to the younger races (even if they abstain on every other resolution and ignore the council/laws).
True, but I still think the loadouts could be a little more distinct.
The FEs have different loadouts, but having the same number of armour, shield, H and PD components makes ships seem similar to me even if the exact weapons and hardening values differ. I think I'd prefer if each FE had a stronger theme including new perdition beam variants (only the colour of the beam matters when it kills anything it hits in one shot).
Looking at the wiki (and comparing with a save to see it's up-to-date) all the FE Enigma battlecruiser designs all have 4 Large Shields, 4 Large Armour and some hardening. In game the Enigmatic Observers have 30% shield hardening and an extra 15% armour hardening as well, but I'm not sure where that's from. The number of shield and armour components could vary a little more to make each FE more obviously weak to a specific weapon, for example:
Weak to Plasma/Launchers: 4 Crystal plating, 3 Armour, 1 Shield + Living Reactive Armour
Weak to Torpedoes/Missiles: 4 Armour + 4 Shields + Living Reactive Armour
Weak to Kinetic artillery/Autocannons: 2 Armour + 6 Shields + 2 Shield Hardeners
Weak to Disruptors/bypass weapons: More Escorts + Shield capacitors
Also I want there to be a way to more easily see ship details for races we can't infiltrate (FE, Pirates, space creatures etc.) rather than looking at the wiki or pausing and hovering over a random ship in the fleet and waiting for the tooltip to expand to include all 23 ship modifiers to see the shield and armour hardeneing values at the top and bottom of the seemingly random list of modifiers (this feels like a bit of an oversight when most of the information was hidden behind the 100 intel requirement).
It's not that important, but each FE having a weapon component unique to them would add a little spice like a superpower Null Void Beam (long range anti-shield), a better Cloud Lightning L-slot component, a different type of Launcher (Gluon launcher), a super Cutting Laser (anti-hull), protective/repair drones, disruptor PD etc.
Still hard disagree on them joining gal com just like that. I didnt watch it but read about it, in that series the 2 races have some big philisophical debate or big grand project for the future of the galaxy, the fallen empires do not. THey are vestigial empires that have lost all motivation to drive on not some ancient empires that are subtly trying to influence the galaxy.
They barely give any missions and its either a fragmented hive mind that is half insane giving you ridiculous orders that make sense to it, the xenophiles who ask for a copy of your species cus they are certain you are gonna get yourself killed so they want to save some of you and the materialists feel one of your scientists is really brilliant and should come over to their place rather than waste away in your empire.
In all those "missions" they are not trying to control you or anything its purely in their own interest not some grand plan. They only get annoyed when you do things against their ethics and even then i massacred entire species as a purifier and the xenophiles did nothing. They do get annoyed when you bother them mostly, spiritualists its landing on their holy worlds and the xenophobes its being next to their borders and thats mostly it.
They are not some hyper powerful empire with a grand plan for the universe they are old cranky empires that have basically fallen into depression and alcoholism remaining stagnant. They briefly throw that off when awakening but fall back in pretty quickly.
From their dialogue to their behaviour their one desire is clear leave them alone and stay out of their turf they dont care about anything else (even if a bomb is gonna blow up the galaxy). unless they completely revamp the FE and their lore and dialogue etc your idea just does not work.
The idea of unique weapons sounds good on paper but dont feel like it would bring enough.
Still hard disagree on them joining gal com just like that. I didnt watch it but read about it, in that series the 2 races have some big philisophical debate or big grand project for the future of the galaxy, the fallen empires do not. THey are vestigial empires that have lost all motivation to drive on not some ancient empires that are subtly trying to influence the galaxy.
They barely give any missions and its either a fragmented hive mind that is half insane giving you ridiculous orders that make sense to it, the xenophiles who ask for a copy of your species cus they are certain you are gonna get yourself killed so they want to save some of you and the materialists feel one of your scientists is really brilliant and should come over to their place rather than waste away in your empire.
In all those "missions" they are not trying to control you or anything its purely in their own interest not some grand plan. They only get annoyed when you do things against their ethics and even then i massacred entire species as a purifier and the xenophiles did nothing. They do get annoyed when you bother them mostly, spiritualists its landing on their holy worlds and the xenophobes its being next to their borders and thats mostly it.
They are not some hyper powerful empire with a grand plan for the universe they are old cranky empires that have basically fallen into depression and alcoholism remaining stagnant. They briefly throw that off when awakening but fall back in pretty quickly.
From their dialogue to their behaviour their one desire is clear leave them alone and stay out of their turf they dont care about anything else (even if a bomb is gonna blow up the galaxy). unless they completely revamp the FE and their lore and dialogue etc your idea just does not work.
The idea of unique weapons sounds good on paper but dont feel like it would bring enough.
I understand your view of fallen empires, "old cranky empires that have basically fallen into depression and alcoholism remaining stagnant" works as a reason for why they mechanically don't play by the normal rules, but it's a little simplistic and doesn't open up a lot of interesting avenues to explore or develop. It's fine to imagine them as a race that achieved perfection, fell into hedonism and banned changes to their society as needless risks, having decided long ago that any deviation is a step away from that perfection. But I feel that backstory strips them of potential motive, mystery and agency so makes them less interesting as antagonists.
I prefer to see a Fallen Empire as a more mysterious "hyper powerful empire with a grand plan for the universe" that is secretive, old and strange in thought, action and culture from younger races. They are normally neutral, but awaken when the time is right and represent an ominous looming threat. What hope or plan do they have for the future that keeps them from self-annihilation or holds them back from using thier planet-crackers? What part could your existence be playing in their plans? What do they know about this universe that you don't? What exactly are they waiting for if they could awaken at any moment? What events shaped them?
Also we have the War in Heaven situation where one awakening fallen empire triggers another of opposing ethics to wage a galactic war. So it's already like Babylon 5 at times (the show had some good plot lines in the later seasons - though it's been years since I watched it so I remember fragments like what Vorlons look like under their encounter suits, deals with the Shadow, and themes exploring the mystery of alien motivations around war and politics).
"The War in Heaven is a special event where a second fallen empire awakens as well, and the two awakened empires eventually launch a Total War against one another with the normal empires acting as satellite states in their conflict. Once the first fallen empire awakens, an ancient rival may be chosen with the following chances:
40% A fallen empire with the opposite ethic is picked as rival, if one exists.
20% A fallen empire with a random ethic is picked as rival. This can hit the opposing ethic by chance. Ancient Caretakes cannot be picked.
40% No rival is picked, and thus no War in Heaven can happen."
Obviously the game has changed a lot since FE were first introduced. Sometimes galaxy settings and balance changes can break FE triggers - introducing new power spikes before default mid- and end-game years, wars happening faster with changes to FTL speeds/gateways, FE being destroyed before they can awaken or before the mean time to happen events can fire are all ways existing content can be accidentally invalidated (I find It takes a few games each patch before you can determine the best settings, and some trial and error as I usually set the dates too early or too late for the ideal level of challenge because I forget the delay MTTH events add).
It's probably better to add new Fallen empires than to dramatically change existing ones but I think it would be nice if each empire had a little more going on in terms of motives, special mechanics and lore. Much already exists I would just like to see more of it in my games and to have more mechanics to interact with Fallen Empires - Espionage is one way to deliver new snippets of lore. Conversations and quests are another. Politics and the galactic community (like espionage) is something currently completely untapped so I don't want to dismiss it as an option. I think it could be fun to have a Megacorp FE that wants to interact with the galaxy but has long-term ulterior motives for each deal, willing to vote your way but at a steep cost, seemingly friendly but probably evil - selling relics that may also do something mysterious each activation, calling in favours to advance their political plans or to hide their true purpose.
I understand your view of fallen empires, "old cranky empires that have basically fallen into depression and alcoholism remaining stagnant" works as a reason for why they mechanically don't play by the normal rules, but it's a little simplistic and doesn't open up a lot of interesting avenues to explore or develop. It's fine to imagine them as a race that achieved perfection, fell into hedonism and banned changes to their society as needless risks, having decided long ago that any deviation is a step away from that perfection. But I feel that backstory strips them of potential motive, mystery and agency so makes them less interesting as antagonists.
I prefer to see a Fallen Empire as a more mysterious "hyper powerful empire with a grand plan for the universe" that is secretive, old and strange in thought, action and culture from younger races. They are normally neutral, but awaken when the time is right and represent an ominous looming threat. What hope or plan do they have for the future that keeps them from self-annihilation or holds them back from using thier planet-crackers? What part could your existence be playing in their plans? What do they know about this universe that you don't? What exactly are they waiting for if they could awaken at any moment? What events shaped them?
Also we have the War in Heaven situation where one awakening fallen empire triggers another of opposing ethics to wage a galactic war. So it's already like Babylon 5 at times (the show had some good plot lines in the later seasons - though it's been years since I watched it so I remember fragments like what Vorlons look like under their encounter suits, deals with the Shadow, and themes exploring the mystery of alien motivations around war and politics).
"The War in Heaven is a special event where a second fallen empire awakens as well, and the two awakened empires eventually launch a Total War against one another with the normal empires acting as satellite states in their conflict. Once the first fallen empire awakens, an ancient rival may be chosen with the following chances:
40% A fallen empire with the opposite ethic is picked as rival, if one exists.
20% A fallen empire with a random ethic is picked as rival. This can hit the opposing ethic by chance. Ancient Caretakes cannot be picked.
40% No rival is picked, and thus no War in Heaven can happen."
Obviously the game has changed a lot since FE were first introduced. Sometimes galaxy settings and balance changes can break FE triggers - introducing new power spikes before default mid- and end-game years, wars happening faster with changes to FTL speeds/gateways, FE being destroyed before they can awaken or before the mean time to happen events can fire are all ways existing content can be accidentally invalidated (I find It takes a few games each patch before you can determine the best settings, and some trial and error as I usually set the dates too early or too late for the ideal level of challenge because I forget the delay MTTH events add).
It's probably better to add new Fallen empires than to dramatically change existing ones but I think it would be nice if each empire had a little more going on in terms of motives, special mechanics and lore. Much already exists I would just like to see more of it in my games and to have more mechanics to interact with Fallen Empires - Espionage is one way to deliver new snippets of lore. Conversations and quests are another. Politics and the galactic community (like espionage) is something currently completely untapped so I don't want to dismiss it as an option. I think it could be fun to have a Megacorp FE that wants to interact with the galaxy but has long-term ulterior motives for each deal, willing to vote your way but at a steep cost, seemingly friendly but probably evil - selling relics that may also do something mysterious each activation, calling in favours to advance their political plans or to hide their true purpose.
Thats kind of the problem you say you imagine them as having all a grand plan etc etc but the game explicitly tells you that is not the case. Its not my "view" of fallen empires its literally what the game tells you. From the description of their government, to their jobs, to their civics and dialogues its only decadence and stagnation not some super secret plan in the works. What you are asking would fit more a linear campaign rather than a procedurally generated galaxy.
The only reason they havent died out is even spelled out for you that they are simply that strong and have a couple of dedicated people who do the work to keep the society functioning (barely) while the rest lose themselves in decadence as all their needs are met. They dont "self annihilate" because they arent keen on dying and have no reason to infight. Nothing holds them back from using their planet crackers, if they have a colossus and you are at war with them they will happily use it on you. They arent waiting for anything and no they can't "awaken at any moment" they awaken only when a sufficient motivation is presented whether that be the younger races getting to strong or one of their hated long time rivals suddenly getting their act together or a crisis of galactic proportion. There are hiints of their history here and there but its true they could use a bit more love in the lore departement like the fragments.
We will prob never agree about the whole FE being part of the galcom by default and i dont think a megacorp FE would work.
Fallen empires have never been about some grand plan or design they have always been about the cycle of empires (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheCycleOfEmpires) where they are firmly stuck in the decay phase and can briefly go back to the expansion phase before slowly going back to the decay phase and then most of the time death. (Do miss when you could vassalize them)
Cosmogenesis was a mistake tbh, but I agree with the sentiment that FEs simply do not have much going on for them anyway.
I think the issue is that they *never* really had much, but the lack of content in 1.0 Stellaris hid this fact. So now the player has caught up to them and they haven't changed since 1.0 (which is also hilariously lore-accurate).
Cosmogenesis was a mistake tbh, but I agree with the sentiment that FEs simply do not have much going on for them anyway.
I think the issue is that they *never* really had much, but the lack of content in 1.0 Stellaris hid this fact. So now the player has caught up to them and they haven't changed since 1.0 (which is also hilariously lore-accurate).
Dont agree with cosmogenesis being a mistake. It has flaws like anything, but to me was a nice addition to the game. Do agree with the whole lacking content part though for the fallen empires.
Thats kind of the problem you say you imagine them as having all a grand plan etc etc but the game explicitly tells you that is not the case. Its not my "view" of fallen empires its literally what the game tells you. From the description of their government, to their jobs, to their civics and dialogues its only decadence and stagnation not some super secret plan in the works. What you are asking would fit more a linear campaign rather than a procedurally generated galaxy.
The only reason they havent died out is even spelled out for you that they are simply that strong and have a couple of dedicated people who do the work to keep the society functioning (barely) while the rest lose themselves in decadence as all their needs are met. They dont "self annihilate" because they arent keen on dying and have no reason to infight. Nothing holds them back from using their planet crackers, if they have a colossus and you are at war with them they will happily use it on you. They arent waiting for anything and no they can't "awaken at any moment" they awaken only when a sufficient motivation is presented whether that be the younger races getting to strong or one of their hated long time rivals suddenly getting their act together or a crisis of galactic proportion. There are hiints of their history here and there but its true they could use a bit more love in the lore departement like the fragments.
We will prob never agree about the whole FE being part of the galcom by default and i dont think a megacorp FE would work.
Fallen empires have never been about some grand plan or design they have always been about the cycle of empires (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheCycleOfEmpires) where they are firmly stuck in the decay phase and can briefly go back to the expansion phase before slowly going back to the decay phase and then most of the time death. (Do miss when you could vassalize them)
The galcom for me is just a way for Fallen Empires to be normally neutral and absent but show the player they could throw their weight around during the mid-game before they actually awaken so you don't completely ignore them and consider what they could do in advance, would you be on their side when they wake up or will you need to prepare to fight them?
It's fun to think about empires that have Fallen from their grand heights like the Imperium of Man in 40k developing the Standard Template Constructs during the age of technology and then the lore about the Men of Iron and Men of Stone/Gold being interesting to me with how the conflict shaped the imperium to rely on servitors and human brains and forbid the use of AI. Or how the hedonistic decadence of the Eldar birthed Slaanesh, the eye of terror, and ruined the galaxy.
Or the frozen abandoned city of the Elder things in At the Mountains of Madness, where the more you understand them the less you fear them and the more ominous and disturbing the normal sounds become, hinting at far bigger threats. So for me in many cases it is the creation of an old empire that almost destroyed them that I find most interesting. How any why did they fall? What pushed each empire back to their tiny corner of space, what fear keeps them there? But we do have a lot of that sort of lore already with the long-dead precursors so it may not be adding much that isn't covered elsewhere.
Anyway, we disagree. But what about Fallen Empires do you find interesting? What makes them more interesting than a young race using fancy chemical bliss? How would you change Fallen Empires while keeping and enhancing the theme of decadence? (obviously decadence does not apply to some like Ancient Caretakers)
Or rather, using the Cycle of Empires, did they all have the same decadence, corruption and despair leading to Decay and The Long Night? And if they weren't all drinking away the millenia, what happened to the other Fallen Empires to push them out of the Stabilization phase, what mark has that left on their empire?
The galcom for me is just a way for Fallen Empires to be normally neutral and absent but show the player they could throw their weight around during the mid-game before they actually awaken so you don't completely ignore them and consider what they could do in advance, would you be on their side when they wake up or will you need to prepare to fight them?
It's fun to think about empires that have Fallen from their grand heights like the Imperium of Man in 40k developing the Standard Template Constructs during the age of technology and then the lore about the Men of Iron and Men of Stone/Gold being interesting to me with how the conflict shaped the imperium to rely on servitors and human brains and forbid the use of AI. Or how the hedonistic decadence of the Eldar birthed Slaanesh, the eye of terror, and ruined the galaxy.
Or the frozen abandoned city of the Elder things in At the Mountains of Madness, where the more you understand them the less you fear them and the more ominous and disturbing the normal sounds become, hinting at far bigger threats. So for me in many cases it is the creation of an old empire that almost destroyed them that I find most interesting. How any why did they fall? What pushed each empire back to their tiny corner of space, what fear keeps them there? But we do have a lot of that sort of lore already with the long-dead precursors so it may not be adding much that isn't covered elsewhere.
Anyway, we disagree. But what about Fallen Empires do you find interesting? What makes them more interesting than a young race using fancy chemical bliss? How would you change Fallen Empires while keeping and enhancing the theme of decadence? (obviously decadence does not apply to some like Ancient Caretakers)
Or rather, using the Cycle of Empires, did they all have the same decadence, corruption and despair leading to Decay and The Long Night? And if they weren't all drinking away the millenia, what happened to the other Fallen Empires to push them out of the Stabilization phase, what mark has that left on their empire?
Im more interested in their lore and past actions, we can see the handy work of the xenophobes in their early days when they genocided a hyper pacifist society. We find preserves that seem to have been done by the xenophiles, the materialists and the spiritualists dont seem to have anything like that. The unknown enemy the fallen empire hive mind faced who was it? Was it cetana? Something completely different?
ALso its not fear keeping them in their tiny space its pure laziness. THey got everything they ever need right here in their small corner, why bother with expanding outside. Just unnecessary trouble.
From what little info we got about the interactions of the fallen empires between them there seems to have been a VERY big war that seems to have ended in a stalemate of some kind. (for the base fallen empires) Seems like after that they got tired of contact with other or something like that and retreated into their core systems that had everything you could possibly want. I imagine they each fell into the same decadence (if i have everything i could ever ask for why innovate or do anythign else) although the spiritualists seem more to have fallen into a sort of "religious stagnation" where they dont have slaves and do "menial tasks" but not for the rescources but simply because of the religious significance. (Actually supported by their unique job descriptions).
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