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Originally posted by Euro-Maniac
Hmmm.....maybe it should be possible to heal the two and reunite them both i.e. if you occupy both Rome and Constantinople.....but very difficult....close to imposible.....but not quite imposible....:cool:

Byzantine Emperor might force the Pope into crowning him Emperor and submit religiously, however elevating BB to monstrous proportions.
Anyways, there were many breaks in the Church that happened and were healed. The player should decide whether or not to pursue unification of the Church as so many Emperors did (for example, through Ecunemical Councils) causing internal instabilty, or do nothing (which many Emperors also did) which would harm East and West in the long run.
 
However both of Churches have tried to reconcinated, so it is not as if Hell will freeze over, u know? What if things have happened differently, then it is possible that both Churches reunite. For example, Pope could force Partraich of Constantionople into Latin rite but it is as likely that Patriarch force Pope into Orthodox rite. Or that they could negiotate and reunite for real. After all there are Eastern Catholic Church (Church that regonized Pope as well, Pope but follow Orthodox tradition so may it be that way?)
 
Originally posted by Zhai
However both of Churches have tried to reconcinated, so it is not as if Hell will freeze over, u know? What if things have happened differently, then it is possible that both Churches reunite. For example, Pope could force Partraich of Constantionople into Latin rite but it is as likely that Patriarch force Pope into Orthodox rite. Or that they could negiotate and reunite for real. After all there are Eastern Catholic Church (Church that regonized Pope as well, Pope but follow Orthodox tradition so may it be that way?)

Just as long as there is a possibility in the game no matter how unlikely.
 
Just as long as there is a possibility in the game no matter how unlikely.

That is what I want. It may be as if USA getting to be loved by everybody in the world but it is not hell freezing over, well I hope not:D ;) Why not?
 
Originally posted by Zhai


That is what I want. It may be as if USA getting to be loved by everybody in the world but it is not hell freezing over, well I hope not:D ;) Why not?

I would definately have to third that!:p
 
IIRC when the Byzantine Emperor asked the Pope for help (leading to the first crusade) the Pope rescinded the excommunication which was handed out in 1054 (or thereabouts). So relations should have a possibility of getting better between the two.:)
 
Yeah, nothing be more damaging to the relation than being excommited, and good way to improve the relation is to lift the excommition. By the way will, Pope have that option, to do with excommition? I mean the paper as Pope. Also, if both Churches unify, maybe we could combined the symbol of Catholic and Orthodox? There will still be a upside down cross of heretic, for it is common to have a heretic somewhere:D But still, will we get a symbol in which Orthodox cross merge with Catholic cross if both Churches united?
 
Originally posted by Sonny
IIRC when the Byzantine Emperor asked the Pope for help (leading to the first crusade) the Pope rescinded the excommunication which was handed out in 1054 (or thereabouts). So relations should have a possibility of getting better between the two.:)

Cept when Crusaders start plundering Byzantine lands and then sacking Constantinople in 1204. Damn Crusaders were never good.
 
Originally posted by Phillip V


Cept when Crusaders start plundering Byzantine lands and then sacking Constantinople in 1204. Damn Crusaders were never good.
So e.g. Godfred de Builloun is to blame for what others did more than a hundred years later? :confused: Aren't you generalizing a wee bit to much here? :rolleyes:
 
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Originally posted by Zhai
Yeah, nothing be more damaging to the relation than being excommited, and good way to improve the relation is to lift the excommition. By the way will, Pope have that option, to do with excommition? I mean the paper as Pope. Also, if both Churches unify, maybe we could combined the symbol of Catholic and Orthodox? There will still be a upside down cross of heretic, for it is common to have a heretic somewhere:D But still, will we get a symbol in which Orthodox cross merge with Catholic cross if both Churches united?

That would be cool!:p
 
Originally posted by Havard
So e.g. Godfred de Builloun is to blame for what others did more than a hundred years later? :confused: Aren't you generalizing a wee bit to much here? :rolleyes:

Well, he did say WHEN the Crusaders wreaked havoc on the Byzantines. Up 'til then (or any time the Byzantines are ruffled by crusaders) there should be possibilities of moving relations along in a positive direction.:)
 
Union of Churches, Union of Empires: Possible?

Actually, it may have been. Not by the dynastic ties suggested by Philip V (Otto, Zoe, etc.), but by force.

In 1025, at the death of the great Byzantine Emperor Basil II, the Churches were still united and the Byzantine army had established a solid dominance over its Slavic and Muslim foes. Basil II had crushed the Bulgars, retaken Antioch, and reduced the Muslim emirates of Syria to tributary status. Meanwhile, Italy was riven between feuding Lombard, Norman, and Italian mini-states. The Byzantines still had an Italian foothold at Bari. Had Basil's successors had the talent and the inclination, their well-prepared army could have swept up all of Italy south of the Po River without much trouble. The great project of Justinian would finally be completed, 500 years after his death.

The Byzantine Emperors were quite comfortable with bossing around high churchmen, and had imprisoned Popes before during their last occupation of Rome (from 540 to 700 AD). If they had re-occupied Rome, they could have forcibly prevented the Schism, and also stopped the Popes from crowning the German Emperors.

That's probably the best-case scenario. A Byzantine annexation of the German lands of the HRE would be very unlikely (Byzantium never tried extending its power away from the Mediterranian basin). The reverse scenario, a German annexation of Byzantium, would likely have played out similarly to the Fourth Crusade; an overextended military occupation of hostile territory, eventually lost to native dynasts.

But the moment passed. When Basil II died, the throne passed through his niece Zoe to her three husbands, none of whom had any talent. The state and the army were left to drift. Meanwhile, the declining Arab emirates facing the Byzantines were refashioned by the invading Seljuk Turks into a unified, dynamic state. At Manzikert in 1071 the Turks wiped out the decayed Byzantine thematic army, and Byzantium forever ceased to be a major military force.
 
Yeah,, that ids true. Even if by some miracle, there never would be a Union of Empires, but maybe be a vassel but not a union. Germans are too busy expand eastern direction, and Byzantine too focus to Mediterrean area, it is possible that both be a friend, working toward a common purpose but unlikely. At very best, Byzantine would simply recovered Justinian's conquest with rest of Spain thrown in andthen focus on Mideast. It is possible that German and Byzantine may make a deal on the control or divison of Italy but that would only be if both are good friend and willing to work it out.
 
That would be cool!

Thanks, E-M.:) For saying that I had a good idea. Do you have any thought? Rmbr to smile:D

By way, is it possible to design a cross that is blend of Orthodox and Catholic? After the Union of Church I mean.
 
Originally posted by Zhai


Thanks, E-M.:) For saying that I had a good idea. Do you have any thought? Rmbr to smile:D

By way, is it possible to design a cross that is blend of Orthodox and Catholic? After the Union of Church I mean.

Hmmm that too would be cool, the combining of crosses? Good ideas my friend lol! Keep it up!;)
 
Originally posted by crooktooth
Union of Churches, Union of Empires: Possible?

Actually, it may have been. Not by the dynastic ties suggested by Philip V (Otto, Zoe, etc.), but by force.

In 1025, at the death of the great Byzantine Emperor Basil II, the Churches were still united and the Byzantine army had established a solid dominance over its Slavic and Muslim foes. Basil II had crushed the Bulgars, retaken Antioch, and reduced the Muslim emirates of Syria to tributary status. Meanwhile, Italy was riven between feuding Lombard, Norman, and Italian mini-states. The Byzantines still had an Italian foothold at Bari. Had Basil's successors had the talent and the inclination, their well-prepared army could have swept up all of Italy south of the Po River without much trouble. The great project of Justinian would finally be completed, 500 years after his death.

The Byzantine Emperors were quite comfortable with bossing around high churchmen, and had imprisoned Popes before during their last occupation of Rome (from 540 to 700 AD). If they had re-occupied Rome, they could have forcibly prevented the Schism, and also stopped the Popes from crowning the German Emperors.

That's probably the best-case scenario. A Byzantine annexation of the German lands of the HRE would be very unlikely (Byzantium never tried extending its power away from the Mediterranian basin). The reverse scenario, a German annexation of Byzantium, would likely have played out similarly to the Fourth Crusade; an overextended military occupation of hostile territory, eventually lost to native dynasts.

But the moment passed. When Basil II died, the throne passed through his niece Zoe to her three husbands, none of whom had any talent. The state and the army were left to drift. Meanwhile, the declining Arab emirates facing the Byzantines were refashioned by the invading Seljuk Turks into a unified, dynamic state. At Manzikert in 1071 the Turks wiped out the decayed Byzantine thematic army, and Byzantium forever ceased to be a major military force.
Very satisfactory explanation, crooktooth!:) However, what kind of entity is the HRE in the game? How would the Pope crowning the Byzantine Emperor factor in to this gamewise?
Anyways, I remember that Basil II was organizing a long-delayed Sicilian expedition that would have set sail had it not been for his death.
 
Originally posted by Phillip V

Very satisfactory explanation, crooktooth!:) However, what kind of entity is the HRE in the game? How would the Pope crowning the Byzantine Emperor factor in to this gamewise?
Anyways, I remember that Basil II was organizing a long-delayed Sicilian expedition that would have set sail had it not been for his death.

A little later there was a Sicilian expedition led by George Maniakes. They invited the Normans along and they were initially very successful. This was when the Normans got a reputation as fighters. Don't recal the cirsumstances, but the Byzantines and the Normans had a falling out (something about who got the lands that were conquered IIRC) and they left and then some political hassle (one of Zoe's husbands???) got Maniakes called back to Constantinople and that was that.:)