Thinking about an alt hist mod: shattered Europe

[Taylor]

Ok, so I was playing Misc Mods in EU3, and it has several alternate history scenarios, one of which is one where the christians were much less successful. E.g. Spain is still mostly Muslim, Greece is Muslim, and on the British Isles, paganism is abundant. France is as scattered as the HRE. Now what I was thinking, what if this line of history is extended up to the ww2 era. What factions would we see?

In my game as Zaragoza, I conquered all of Iberia and some southern French territories. Also, both the Americas plus Ireland are mine. Scotland formed Great Britain, so no paganism is present anymore. So I'm imagining a world where the Americas are Muslim. The rest of the world was not touched by Iberia. Also, in my game, Bavaria is emperor, Catholic and quite powerful and trying to enforce religious unity on the Empire.

I was thinking we could have the following factions (I added some estimations for IC):

==Allies== (total IC 710)
- Caliphate of Iberia (IC 120)
- United Emirates of America (some kind of equivalent of USA) (IC 220)
- Caliphate of Athens (Owns Greece proper and some of the southern balkans) (IC 70)
- North German Federation (refused to join the Bavarian bid for German unification; formed their own Federation instead) (IC 80)
- Most of the Middle East bar Turkey (IC 50)
- Chinese factions (IC 80)
- Ireland (IC 30)
- Russia (only a shadow of OTL Russia; most of the west is owned by other powers) (IC 60)

==Axis== (total IC 500)
- France (is a rump state of OTL France. Wants to conquer the rest back, including Southern France, now owned by Iberia. Preaches modern "crusade" against the Muslim states, esp. Iberia) (IC 80)
- Bavaria (Managed to subdue all of South Germany bar Austria) (IC 100)
- Vijayanagar (Pursues an aggressive tactic into Iran and SE Asia) (IC 80)
- Milan (IC 60)
- Ottoman Empire (IC 80)
- Scandinavia (also owns the northwest of Russia and Baltic coast; basically Novgorod) (IC 100)

==Comintern== (total IC 510)
- Bohemia (Refused to join Bavaria; later got a communist revolution; owns most of Ukraine) (IC 100)
- Austria (same; but is kind of trapped now between Greece and Bavaria) (IC 30)
- Mexico & most of South America (IC 100+80)
- United Soviets of Britain (IC 120)
- Japan (just for fun ) (IC 80)

==Neutrals==
(western Europe)
- Normandy (IC 40)
- Burgundy (IC 60)
- Holland (no Netherlands) (IC 50)
- Armagnac (later driven into allies due to French aggression) (IC 5)
- Toulouse (later driven into allies due to French aggression) (IC 5)
- Tuscany (later driven into allies due to Milanese aggression) (IC 40)
- Switzerland (of course) (IC 40)
(eastern Europe)
- Poland (IC 20)
- Lithuania (IC 20)
- Prussia (IC 20)

I made a concept drawing of the borders in Europe:
(it's a bit big... click here)
screenshot in this post.


Ok, does this sound interesting to anyone? Any ideas? If there's enough interest and I feel like it, I might make a first attempt.

 

[unmerged(320880)]

It sounds very Interesting i will look for this

 

[General Mosh]

as will I

 

[UltimateTobi]

Sounds cool, give it a go.

 

[unmerged(151070)]

- North German Federation (refused to join the Bavarian bid for German unification)

Wow, is this supposed to be maximum trolling? I am literally laughing myself to death. I am not trying to ridicule or so, I just find this extremely hilarious.

Edit: Well, after reading the whole thread it is still funny, even when I see my 'mistake'.

 

[UltimateTobi]

Wow, is this supposed to be maximum trolling? I am literally laughing myself to death. I am not trying to ridicule or so, I just find this extremely hilarious.

Why should it be trolling?

 

[unmerged(151070)]

Why should it be trolling?

Because Bavaria didn't really ask for unification in OTL on its own virtue. And if it asked NGF would have just said, hell yeah, since they initiated it.

 

[Taylor]

Yeah but this is a completely different timeline! Austria is Protestant in my game. Bavaria is emperor, Catholic, quite powerful and tries to enforce religious unity on the rest of Germany. There is no Prussia to speak of. The North is (kind of) dominated by the Hansa and I feel that it is possible that they want to go a different way than along with Bavaria.

Please don't feel offended; it's alternate history with a quite early point of divergence.

 

[unmerged(151070)]

Yeah but this is a completely different timeline! Austria is Protestant in my game. Bavaria is emperor, Catholic, quite powerful and tries to enforce religious unity on the rest of Germany. There is no Prussia to speak of. The North is (kind of) dominated by the Hansa and I feel that it is possible that they want to go a different way than along with Bavaria.

Please don't feel offended; it's alternate history with a quite early point of divergence.

There was just no notion about "Bavaria is emperor, Catholic, quite powerful", so when I first read this I couldn't help but laugh.

I don't feel offended, I live in NRW. And I don't see a way why anyone in Germany should be offended about this but some people may prove me wrong.

 

[UltimateTobi]

I don't feel offended too, I live in NRW. (North-Rhine Westfalia.)

As already said, looking forward to this. (If it'll be developed. )

 

[Taylor]

There was just no notion about "Bavaria is emperor, Catholic, quite powerful", so when I first read this I couldn't help but laugh.

I don't feel offended, I live in NRW. And I don't see a way why anyone in Germany should be offended about this but some people may prove me wrong.

Ok, good . I edited my first post to give some more clarity about the situation in Germany.

Good to see there are people interested in this!

 

[unmerged(174159)]

What is Burgundy's footprint? My favourite varient is Alsace Lorraine, burgundy proper, champagne, belgium and south Netherlands, like a kinda Lotheringen kingdom - and given the French/Germans both being disorganised into HRE type conglomerate nations, a strong middle kingdom could emerge (rather like how poland only worked when Russia and Germany were weakened)

 

[Taylor]

What is Burgundy's footprint? My favourite varient is Alsace Lorraine, burgundy proper, champagne, belgium and south Netherlands, like a kinda Lotheringen kingdom - and given the French/Germans both being disorganised into HRE type conglomerate nations, a strong middle kingdom could emerge (rather like how poland only worked when Russia and Germany were weakened)

Hmm, that's an interesting point. That could make them a fun nation to play. I want to do it such, though, that Holland is also interesting. But there's room for two nations I suppose.

 

[unmerged(174159)]

Also how old is the Bohemian revolution? I'd rather like to see something resembling the VSVR of Tommy4ever's brilliant game - but without the worldconquestyness. Since there's apparently no Soviet Union, perhaps Revolutionary Communism is actually an older ideology that in the modern timeline? Also Japan being part of the Revolutionary Comintern makes more sense if Communism is an older ideology. It could also be from the fact that Mexico (Socialist Saracen/Native Mestizo?) was the nation to establish communication with Japan. Perhaps they never withdrew, but colonised California instead. I dunno, but the New World's ethnic composition in terms of colonisers is very much up in the air for you to have fun with.

Also if Austria is Communist, perhaps so is Hungary, with Romania providing an Axis foil in the Balkans?

 

[Taylor]

Also how old is the Bohemian revolution? I'd rather like to see something resembling the VSVR of Tommy4ever's brilliant game - but without the worldconquestyness. Since there's apparently no Soviet Union, perhaps Revolutionary Communism is actually an older ideology that in the modern timeline? Also Japan being part of the Revolutionary Comintern makes more sense if Communism is an older ideology. It could also be from the fact that Mexico (Socialist Saracen/Native Mestizo?) was the nation to establish communication with Japan. Perhaps they never withdrew, but colonised California instead. I dunno, but the New World's ethnic composition in terms of colonisers is very much up in the air for you to have fun with.

Also if Austria is Communist, perhaps so is Hungary, with Romania providing an Axis foil in the Balkans?

Hm, I suppose it's possible to make Communism older. After all it's quite an old ideology. The revolution in Japan indeed makes more sense then. The problem is if there's a few communist countries in, like, 1870 (no nukes), then that doesn't seem to me like a very stable situation. E.g. a Communist Bohemia that's moreover quite strong would try to spread the revolution and either conquer most of Europe or fail and have its regime overthrown. So how then did the world end up so balanced at the start point?

I was also thinking maybe it'd be fun to have the war start a bit earlier than OTL ww2; and thus have technologies that are somewhere in-between ww1 and ww2 techs.

 

[unmerged(174159)]

You fail to chart the ascendancy as one in Bohemia such as Stalin to opposed any global revolutionary movement.

Perhaps Bavaria's Unification Wars and the NGF both form early as a response toward the threat as Austria-Hungary and Bohemia form the Communist bloc. Given Milan is also an Axis/Catholo-state That provides a degree of encirclement, and you mention Austria being trapped between Greece, so perhaps they throw their lot in an attempt to contain the Communists.

If it's not too mind-bending, perhaps even the Islamic states help to contain the communists - the weakening of the Ottomans and Greek independance could come as a result of Ottoman intervention in the Balkans.

With a rapidly worsening situation for the Communists, perhaps they attempt to reconcile their differences and act with more realpolitik

 

[Taylor]

Ok I made a concept drawing, see the end of the first post.

Also, I added Russia; I decided that a world without Russia would be a tad to weird. They're on the allied side, and are pretty weak.

 

[unmerged(174159)]

I'd love an North Caucasus puppet state for the Ottomans. Also is that Swedish Empire in the North? So they didn't lose at Poltava?

 

[Taylor]

I'd love an North Caucasus puppet state for the Ottomans. Also is that Swedish Empire in the North? So they didn't lose at Poltava?

The battle of Poltava never happened . The point of divergence is much earlier. Russia is much weaker because of a stronger Ottoman Empire and Bohemia.

Actually, Scandinavia was formed by Denmark due to the Kalmar union being kept in place long enough.

 

[Taylor]

I've been thinking about some timeline. Here's what I've come up with, mostly some 'recent' stuff. Feel free to comment & criticize. It's all still very much subject to change.

1501 - Scotland unites Great Britain
1572 - Zaragoza re-unites Iberia by the final annexation of Badajoz
1694 - Treaty of friendship between Iberia and Great Britain - GB hands over its Irish province, Iberia its Welsh possessions.
1707 - Doctrine of Peace declared by Iberia. In the declaration, they state that they will no longer start any wars in Europe. This means that they effectively retract themselves from the diplomatic affairs of Europe.
1873 - Communist revolution in Bohemia.
Industrialization brings about worsening worker conditions and overcrowded, impoverished, cities. The Ukrainians in the East feel mistreated and revolt (1872). Since the Bohemian cities in the west are dependent on food production in the East, food prices skyrocket in the cities, workers are unable to get their daily food requirements. Revolts break out in all the large cities (1873). The remaining soldiers in the West defect and the Bohemian monarchy is quickly abolished (1873). In the East, Ukraine declares independence (1873). The revolution in the West radicalizes and war is declared on Ukraine (1874). After two years of bloody fighting, Bohemia is reunited under a Stalinist-like regime (1876).
1879 - Communist revolution in Austria.
Having been under the influence of Bohemia for a long time, the success of communism inspires revolts in Austria (1878). Bohemia secretly sends volunteers and material and the revolution succeeds (1879).
1889 - Communist revolution in Japan.
The revolution seems contained to Bohemia and Austria. Then, unexpectedly, rural Japan revolts (Instead of Meiji restoration).
1891 - Communist revolution in Hungary.
This sparks new excitements among communists all over the world. Austria and Bohemia begin actively funding the communists in Hungary and they succeed in overthrowing the regime.
1889-1898 - War of French unification.
France has been a patchwork of small states for a long time. However, beginning in the 1870s, 1880s, nationalism and the call for French unification gain strength. When Vermandois declares itself the new Dauphine, Great Britain and Holland declare war, hoping to stop French unification before it becomes too strong. The central French duchies and Normandy support Vermandois. Great Britain has surprising difficulty subduing Normandy and Holland is also not doing too great. Finally, by 1893, Normandy is under British military rule and Paris is under siege. However, in the meantime, Burgundy has joined in to support the French unification and makes life hard for the Dutch. The war drags on. The British and Dutch fail to surround Paris completely and Burgundy is threatening the Dutch supply lines through Flanders. In 1896, a communist revolution engulfs Britain and it leaves the war. The French allies rally, liberate much of the territory occupied by Holland and move into Flanders. This is when Bavaria and Milan step in. They also do not wish to see a French unification. Burgundy is knocked out of the war, and Milan threatens the southern French allies. Still not broken, however, the French allies fight on for two more years before a peace is finally signed. France is in name returned to the state it was before the war. However, the central French allies have not been completely defeated in this war, and have grown closer together during the war. This eventually leads to them uniting as per the treaty of Nevers.
1896 - Communist revolution in Great Britain
The country being exhausted by the protracted war that moreover does not appear necessary to many Britons, the communists see their chance and seize power. Many of the British dependencies either declare independence or are taken over by other countries.
1907 - Treaty of Nevers
After several treaties during the time period 1898-1907 that have brought the French allies closer together, in Nevers, they finally decide to unite into one nation. However, not all of France is united. Militarism and nationalism is not so strong in Normandy and Burgundy, and also the South (Armagnac and Toulouse, who never participated in the war) does not join in. One of the reasons that both Normandy and Burgundy do not join is that they are both fairly powerful states and fear that their influence in the new French state will be too small. Normandy and Burgundy declare themselves neutral states, and this is something the European powers can live with, at least for a while.
1913 - Communist revolution in Mexico.
1915-1923 - Communist revolutions in S-America.