This game is fundamentally broken

[Emperor 1997]

Not to mention the fact that such artificial "fixes" aren't really fixes at all, and create a pretty bad, inconsistent gameplay.

I'm playing with max conquerors in a game right now, the entire map was reshapen by them, they all have extreme buffs (they all have Scourge of god) so new empires keep rising up and conquering the map just like the actual mongol invasion.
View attachment 1288953

As a lowly duke I was already able to beat one of them in an offensive war by picking my fights in proper terrain when the enemy AI (bad) wasted too long moving around their own lands with huge stacks until they began to starve.

There's also an inconsistency between his actual armies vs his allies, he called in some allies, and even though I had only 4k horsemen while he had 20k soldiers with crazy bonuses, his allies had nothing, so I'd get some really tough fights sometimes (when he was leading), and sometimes I'd get some pathetic fights and stackwipe them all (when their allies were leading).

At the end of the day while this is making the game "harder" it's also making it feel like a sloppy, inconsistent, broken experience I'd expect from a poor quality mod, the map looks like pure cancer and most of the easy targets that don't have the trait are still pathetic to fight against.


I'm still in my second generation, starting as a lowly "count" level nomad learning the mechanics for the first time, mind you, so I don't really have that many bonuses or buildings finished yet, I can imagine in a generation or 2 even those enemies with ridiculous bonuses are going to get stackwiped by my own giant, boosted armies.

This also doesn't address the missing features (RtP and Khans of the Steppe do, to be fair, they are steps in the right direction), the bad systems that need overhauling like the lack of flanks, lack of tactics, the "levy" troop type, etc...

So no, I disagree, it's not a matter of doing much or little work with modding, I don't think modding can help, at all.

What the Hell, is the Bohemia AI doing, they are multiple independent Realms within the Bohemia Realm?
But I guess, the Bohemia AI really wants to conquer Russia.

This Screenshot makes it clear, the AI even as Conqueror conquers at random without any Logic or Ambition.

 

[EricArthur]

What the Hell, is the Bohemia AI doing, they are multiple independent Realms within the Bohemia Realm?
But I guess, the Bohemia AI really wants to conquer Russia.

This Screenshot makes it clear, the AI even as Conqueror conquers at random without any Logic or Ambition.

Well, not quite... the AI is following game logic here.

Those enclaves are probably harder to conquer. In Russia, the AI sees easy to conquer and control land that is a marginal net gain, so why wouldn't it?

 

[Benismann]

Well, not quite... the AI is following game logic here.

Those enclaves are probably harder to conquer. In Russia, the AI sees easy to conquer and control land that is a marginal net gain, so why wouldn't it?

Yeah, the game has very little benefit in making actually reasonable realms in terms of landmass, if any at all.

 

[EricArthur]

Yeah, the game has very little benefit in making actually reasonable realms in terms of landmass, if any at all.

We would consider such a territory ungovernable. It isn't for there barely is a penalty to having a bunch of far-flung weaker vassals

On their own they are too weak to do anything. They might join a faction but if your more powerful lords are content then they're stuck doing nothing while paying you a small share of taxes.

And who has ever lost to a peasant revolt in Siberia?

 

[EricArthur]

If we dont complain we'll 100% never get a solution, because again, developers dont play nearly as much as we, the players, do. And that's not an attack against them, it's fine, they're busy working on the game instead. But we very much should complain when the product we bought is not meeting our expectations.

and why are you even trying to shut us up? What are you gaining from that? Why?

I would add that quite a few people, many of whom have contributed to this thread, are actively theorycrafting design changes and adjustments.

I'd say that's definitely one step beyond "just fix it yourself, for yourself"

 

[EricArthur]

Not to mention the fact that such artificial "fixes" aren't really fixes at all, and create a pretty bad, inconsistent gameplay.

I'm playing with max conquerors in a game right now, the entire map was reshapen by them, they all have extreme buffs (they all have Scourge of god) so new empires keep rising up and conquering the map just like the actual mongol invasion.
View attachment 1288953

As a lowly duke I was already able to beat one of them in an offensive war by picking my fights in proper terrain when the enemy AI (bad) wasted too long moving around their own lands with huge stacks until they began to starve.

There's also an inconsistency between his actual armies vs his allies, he called in some allies, and even though I had only 4k horsemen while he had 20k soldiers with crazy bonuses, his allies had nothing, so I'd get some really tough fights sometimes (when he was leading), and sometimes I'd get some pathetic fights and stackwipe them all (when their allies were leading).

At the end of the day while this is making the game "harder" it's also making it feel like a sloppy, inconsistent, broken experience I'd expect from a poor quality mod, the map looks like pure cancer and most of the easy targets that don't have the trait are still pathetic to fight against.


I'm still in my second generation, starting as a lowly "count" level nomad learning the mechanics for the first time, mind you, so I don't really have that many bonuses or buildings finished yet, I can imagine in a generation or 2 even those enemies with ridiculous bonuses are going to get stackwiped by my own giant, boosted armies.

This also doesn't address the missing features (RtP and Khans of the Steppe do, to be fair, they are steps in the right direction), the bad systems that need overhauling like the lack of flanks, lack of tactics, the "levy" troop type, etc...

So no, I disagree, it's not a matter of doing much or little work with modding, I don't think modding can help, at all.

In what year did you start and how is the AI's army composition in general?

 

[rboetto]

I know. A solution sounds insane. Complaining and getting no solution is clearly the optimal decision to make.

My response was more about you waxing poetic in self-indulgent vain glory.

You're posting in the Paradox forums, not getting disqualified from Survivor.

 

[Voidian]

In what year did you start and how is the AI's army composition in general?

1066, almost completely random

 

[yokyoka]

I like the struggle in steppe against other nomadic powers. For once in whole CK3 development cycle I feel like there is difficulty when going from a count to even duke. I feel Khans of the Steppe takes a good step in actually going for "non-artificial difficulty that you can overcome". I'm doing fine and growing my herd? Suddenly there's a white zud and I have to migrate. I need gold but my neighbours are too strong? Maybe I can sacrifice some of my herd for a Nerge. Did my character get over all these things and everything is going great? I get wounded while migrating and get gangrene. My character died before I anticipated? Damn... disloyal kurultai... It's chaotic, difficult but fun. Which I believe how It should also be for other government types. It's very sad to see feudal governments still having nothing other than fabricating claims. (Edit: just read about the herd gain never going negative from this post.)

Though I did not play enough to see how Nomadic governments do against Feudal or Administrative governments. From what I'm seeing (The buffs and modifiers from yurts and etc), It might be fair to say the game is spiraling down the modifier/buff hellhole. From the trajectory of the game It seems rather than balancing the buffs of Nomads, the CK3 team will give other government types more buffs to "balance" things out. Though this might be seen as doomer speculation, It happened with Administrative government > Nomadic government. I'm still hoping for increased rate of "Realm Maintenance" updates.

And people, please remember that we are paying customers. Wouldn't it get on your nerves If you sat down at a restaurant where the food you got was not good, and whenever you tried to voice your complaints to the waiter another customer chimed in and smugly said "If you don't like the food, why don't you cook your own food at home?". You don't have to be a chef to know you are eating a bland or an overspiced food. Let people voice their concerns on forums. If you find a complaint wrong or silly, explain why. Telling them to fix it themselves is the least productive thing to do.

 

[Koppel235]

To add at Steam,Khans of the Steppe reviews fell to Mixed just a week after release

 

[Djyc21215]

My response was more about you waxing poetic in self-indulgent vain glory.

You're posting in the Paradox forums, not getting disqualified from Survivor.

Telling people to fix the problem themselves is somehow *Self*-Indulgence? I think you need to open up a dictionary my friend. You don't seem to know what the word "self" means.

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

Telling people to fix the problem themselves is somehow *Self*-Indulgence? I think you need to open up a dictionary my friend. You don't seem to know what the word "self" means.

There would always be more people who feel or know something is wrong with the game compared to the ones who could put a band-aid on it, though. I struggled to even make an adoption mini-mod for CK2

 

[Djyc21215]

There would always be more people who feel or know something is wrong with the game compared to the ones who could put a band-aid on it, though. I struggled to even make an adoption mini-mod for CK2

CK2 was my first time modding this genre of game, and my first attempt all my work got deleted by the next update cause I had no clue what I am doing. It's practice. Like with everything else you practice on, you eventually get to a competent level with practice and experience.

But while I understand that most don't want to do this practice and would rather the Devs fix their own game, i don't understand why so many people got so angry over me suggesting "You can fix it yourself". Even if it takes a while. it took me 2 hours to fix "Create an Empire" not working properly with Nomadic Governments since half of the work was Isolating what caused the problem and making sure it wasn't mod related (as well as a bunch of other bugs with this DLC none of the patches have fixed), but I look at it this way: 2 hours of work for what, 20-30 more hours of Enjoying playing as my new empire?

I think people gotta look at how long it would take to fix the problem vs How many extra hours of enjoyment they'd give from the game after doing so. This is why I only buy video games on PC, so that if there's a problem and the devs refuse to fix it, I can just do it myself. It may seem intimidating at first, but after a while you see the pattern of how a game is coded/designed.

 

[Benismann]

CK2 was my first time modding this genre of game, and my first attempt all my work got deleted by the next update cause I had no clue what I am doing. It's practice. Like with everything else you practice on, you eventually get to a competent level with practice and experience.

But while I understand that most don't want to do this practice and would rather the Devs fix their own game, i don't understand why so many people got so angry over me suggesting "You can fix it yourself". Even if it takes a while. it took me 2 hours to fix "Create an Empire" not working properly with Nomadic Governments since half of the work was Isolating what caused the problem and making sure it wasn't mod related (as well as a bunch of other bugs with this DLC none of the patches have fixed), but I look at it this way: 2 hours of work for what, 20-30 more hours of Enjoying playing as my new empire?

I think people gotta look at how long it would take to fix the problem vs How many extra hours of enjoyment they'd give from the game after doing so. This is why I only buy video games on PC, so that if there's a problem and the devs refuse to fix it, I can just do it myself. It may seem intimidating at first, but after a while you see the pattern of how a game is coded/designed.

As someone who actually did "fix it myself" - this is no easy task. Sure it's all fine and it flows pretty well once you understand modding, but then the update drops..... And you better have winmerge/notepad++/whatever linux/mac application has compare functions otherwise you're probably not porting your fixes to the new version. And evne with those tools, it's a CHORE to go through bazillion files, compare them, isolate what changed with versions and what u changed urself, merge, repeat billion times.

And again, why should i do paradoxs own work? "You dont like how our food? Welcome to the kitchen, just cook one yourself! Obviously with no salary attached lol"

 

[Voidian]

CK2 was my first time modding this genre of game, and my first attempt all my work got deleted by the next update cause I had no clue what I am doing. It's practice. Like with everything else you practice on, you eventually get to a competent level with practice and experience.

But while I understand that most don't want to do this practice and would rather the Devs fix their own game, i don't understand why so many people got so angry over me suggesting "You can fix it yourself". Even if it takes a while. it took me 2 hours to fix "Create an Empire" not working properly with Nomadic Governments since half of the work was Isolating what caused the problem and making sure it wasn't mod related (as well as a bunch of other bugs with this DLC none of the patches have fixed), but I look at it this way: 2 hours of work for what, 20-30 more hours of Enjoying playing as my new empire?

I think people gotta look at how long it would take to fix the problem vs How many extra hours of enjoyment they'd give from the game after doing so. This is why I only buy video games on PC, so that if there's a problem and the devs refuse to fix it, I can just do it myself. It may seem intimidating at first, but after a while you see the pattern of how a game is coded/designed.

Because mods are incapable of fixing it

 

[Benismann]

Because mods are incapable of fixing it

Mods are def capable, have you seen arena mod? It's basically a different game at that point. The problem is - who tf will be willing to overwrite 90% of the game and then compatch it to every single small update, coz every small update will break the mod of this scale i think. It would be basically a Total Conversion mod without the selling point of Total Conversion mods that is a popular setting....

 

[Voidian]

Mods are def capable, have you seen arena mod? It's basically a different game at that point. The problem is - who tf will be willing to overwrite 90% of the game and then compatch it to every single small update, coz every small update will break the mod of this scale i think. It would be basically a Total Conversion mod without the selling point of Total Conversion mods that is a popular setting....

Weren't all the faulty AI behaviors in every area of the game hard coded and unable to be changed?

Even the devs have said they were unable to remove levies and the entire concept of levies as they work from CK3 to fix it into something functional without a lot of funding didn't they?

Same goes for all the teleporting areas of the game that ignore the travel system from T&T, like switching generals in armies

As for just the difficulty issue, wasn't there a big mod, dark ages, that supposedly adds a lot of difficulty but it's unable to touch the flaws of the game and simply adds more negative modifiers and bad outcomes?

tl.dr can a mod change AI behaviors to make it act smarter, build properly, develop correctly, use religious & cultural reforms, stop moving around losing all supplies and dying to attrition on their own, and just stop using the weighted decision system for everything and start using proper templates & build orders? What about restoring the Ck2 combat & warfare system with flanks, tactics, and proper combat phases that meant something? I've never seen a mod even attempt to do these things individually.

 

[Benismann]

Weren't all the faulty AI behaviors in every area of the game hard coded and unable to be changed?

Some - yes. But in theory the only thing u can do nothing about is how it moves troops and takes battles. And even that was opened up a bit in 1.15, except no one knows how to use it yet :Р
(this is also why i considered 1.15 to be really good despite it's other issues)
Buildings - not hardcoded, MAA hiring - semi-hardcoded, but you can get close enough. Schemes and interactions - not hardcoded, except marriage, which is called via some in-code voodoo magic, but you can still change a lot about it. The way it interacts with culture is also scriptable for the most part.
The problem is that if you're changing all that - that's a lot of overwrites, and you'll have to recheck if it broke any time the game updates, which is really, really tiring.

Also you can check out my rebalance mod (check signature), as i did a bunch of stuff to AI weights and what not to make it do things a in a more reasonable manner.

And combat itself is not very moddable, yeah, but i've seen some mods on steam that replace levies with something akin to ck2.

 

[gamer78]

I think first and only thing they've to do first is to strengten levies and cap MAA numbers in the early date if they can not find a proper way to do better. Make vassal levies more important. Tributes wars for tribals not important. Some mechanics fail as they are no better than proper military strenght. Shortcut simple is military force. Game shouldn't be that fast if it depicts centuries. With the lack of challange in military most mechanics not usefull perhaps in specific type of government only.

 

[Djyc21215]

And again, why should i do paradoxs own work? "You dont like how our food? Welcome to the kitchen, just cook one yourself! Obviously with no salary attached lol"

If you don't like someone else's food, cook your own. If you don't like how someone else designed their game, change it yourself or make your own game. See the pattern?

I didn't say it was easy, but the most optimal solution is always to fix it yourself if the other party has made it clear they have no intentions of doing so.