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This week's debate : Free Subjects versus Serdom

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Free Subjects vs Serfdom

  • Free Subjects

    Votes: 103 62,8%

  • Serfdom

    Votes: 61 37,2%
  • Total voters
    164
I have to go with Serfdom, but like everyone else it is a hard call and definetly depends on the country you are playing. The Stab hit is too painful to go too far with free subjects. I have to admit that this slider has my lowest priority in normal game play.

Cheers, Ice:cool:
 
Completely free subjects.

With land, quality, offensive and free subjects all maxed out, and the lion's share of your research money going into land tech, you can build an army which nothing from Heaven or Earth can defeat. Simply put, that is the strongest possible asset you can have in this game, no matter what it costs you to get it.
 
Originally posted by Maur13
Bow to the master!:D

Well, who needs increased income, when you pay three times less for troops. (though i don't buy much infantry early in the game. But that's what aristocracy is for:D)

Low stab costs are important, and morale? As i said before, i'm yet to hear of someone using my battle tactics (slaugter-thy-oponent instad of defeat-them)

All in all, i'm mad aristocrat keeping his subjects in check:D
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In a lot of ways I end up having the same tactic as u. Full aristocracy, serfdom and such to have low prices and stab costs. Esp when I played Poland I often employed the tactic of losing with 30K to 15K morale wise but in the end I had 25K left and they had 2 :D
 
This slider is a low priority for me as well, but I always nudge it to max serfdom when I get the chance.

The morale penalty for serfs is mitigated by my two high priority sliders: Max offense and max quality. As far as production income goes, I leave that as a lost cause in my games until at least the 1600s. Its to difficult to become more centralized, so I end up with the worst production income there is: Max serf and max decentralized.

The benefits in stability make it worthwhile. Prior to the patches, when stability was always low because of the events, it was even more of a godsend. Now, I use it to give me flexibility with the war tax option during wars. All that money from war taxes, and being able ot raise back up to the level of stability just in time to raise war taxes for the census tax again! Woo hoo!
 
Originally posted by Xanadu
In the early stages of my games I like it to be closer to serfdom for the lower stability recovery costs. As the game goes on and my empire grows I tend to move towards free subjects. They both have their benefits and drawbacks so I will sit on the fence for this one.
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This is of course helped by the fact that most countries that have events tend to move in exactly this way eventwise which help you in the fact that you don´t have to move them all that much.
 
BAh! Peasants live on my good will alone! God put them on the earth to bear my burden and provide me with my royal privledges! I go to war with any neighboring Kingdom that frees its serfs! :D
 
I voted for serfdom

never got tried the other way. I figured the low stab cost was what i needed the most and then I go centralized and innovative.
 
I like serfdom, but let the game drag me towards free subjects unless it takes me past midpoint.

Then I have to put my foot down. :D


- Raife
 
Stability is of utmost importance to me.

I argue that the 10% and 25% bonuses to the production of a province for having a high degree of + stability more than compensates the production modifer on this slider. If I can stay at +2 and +3 stability for a longer period of time and get there quicker when I fall, then I will do far better than the person who never reaches these levels because of free subjects.

This is a low priority slider for me with most countries, I usually dont' move it unless stability costs get too high in the 1500's. When I finally get most of the other sliders set, i start thinking about moving this one, ever slowly towards serfdom.

I compensate morale with offensive doctrine and quality, and 99 percent of the time with land also.

I also like cheaper troops and so far, have never seemed to notice the morale loss on this slider.

I have quickly learned that this game is not about having the perfect modern ideal of free subjects and innovation.

well, that is my two cents
 
This really gave me an understanding on Russuian serfdom, and why the nobility were so loathed to part with this somewhat distasteful institution.
 
free subjects all the way...I love the morale bonus too much...must be my parlimentarianism shining through.
There is nothing more satisfying than having your troops assault a fort and fight to the death losing....maybe this really applies to megalomaniac in me!!!!
 
Concerning the loss of stability with free subjects,

Well France in its time of Revolution is a perfect example. The peasants actually loved the King at first, they were religious and just wanted to live their plain life in peace. It was the bourgeosie (wealthy educated middle class) who introduced revolutionary ideas to the country, and it was them who rallied the peasants with such ideas making the revolution inevitable.
 
It should not really matter.

There is absolutely no indications that the differential legal status of the common man across Europe from the 15th to the 19th Century had any effect whatsoever on any aspect of historical political development. There is every reason to suspect that the late 18th Century liberal historians that invented the "Free peasant" had no inkling of the concept "functional equivalency": That the burden on the common man was more or less the same in all countries.
It just found different forms. Happily the phenomenon is represented as a continuum.

The historically correct setting for all European countries would be 5. Neither here nor there.

Some historical cases:
The coal miners in Glasgow were "serfs" as late as 1800 AD (they were villeins subject to manorial jurisdiction who dug coal to discharge their economic obligations).

There was never serfdom in Castile. The personal status of all subjects of the king of Castile was the Roman-law citizen (cives) who was a personally free man. This is why Spain is so "arstocratic".

The Norwegain peasantry (bønder - crucial analytical distinction impossible tocapture in the English language) were subject to exactly the same type of forced labour as the "serfs" of Denmark and the East.

Most Swiss peasants were "serfs" (villeins, Eigenleute) until 1798.

While the personal status of the Catholic Irish was "free" I don't think they were better off than any Württemberg "serf" (Leibeigener) with hereditary tenure to his holding.

The effect of free subjects is not bady represented in the game. But it was the notion that he somehow was free that motivated the English common man to support his betters against the Revolutionary French, not his superior life chances. But the whole idea only becomes relevant with the advent of nationalism. (In an Age of Nationalism game the notion of historical freedom becomes very important: The more free, the more nationalistic. (German nationalism was based on the notion of the original Germanic freedom).
 
Originally posted by BiB
At least it's a good thing to see they're at least somewhat balanced :D
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I'm not convinced. I think many vote for free subjects because it is PC and a choice one can find pride in.
I would like more sizable morale losses (+.5 to -.5) or less effect on stability (+25% to -25%).
Although I must admit this is only my imagination speaking, as I have yet to play the game:(
 
Serfdom by far. Keeping those pesky peasants under heel makes life worth living. Particularly if they are not members of your culture and religion. There are plenty of places to improve morale for infantry... but when you pay a mere $4-6 for this infantry, life is grand. Particularly handy as a state that spends alot of time fighting in areas of rotten attrition... sure, 10,000 of your infantry have died from frostbite/disease/desertion/starvation/STD's... so what? Build another 10 and send them in! When you have the tech to storm fortresses, this is even more handy... storm away! If you don't succeed the first time, that's OK, another 20K sent in should do the trick.

As for the production bonus of the people... you don't get it if they're rioting all the time, plus, that's what other peoples countries are for...

Keep 'em down!
 
Originally posted by crusin
Serfdom by far. Keeping those pesky peasants under heel makes life worth living. Particularly if they are not members of your culture and religion. There are plenty of places to improve morale for infantry... but when you pay a mere $4-6 for this infantry, life is grand. Particularly handy as a state that spends alot of time fighting in areas of rotten attrition... sure, 10,000 of your infantry have died from frostbite/disease/desertion/starvation/STD's... so what? Build another 10 and send them in! When you have the tech to storm fortresses, this is even more handy... storm away! If you don't succeed the first time, that's OK, another 20K sent in should do the trick.

As for the production bonus of the people... you don't get it if they're rioting all the time, plus, that's what other peoples countries are for...

Keep 'em down!
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Why not go all the way and go for 1 ducat infantry ? ;)
 
Serfdom baby! Usually bump up the Quality and Offensive to Compensate, and that's just fine! Nice cheap infantry, high morale, you can stay at war forever and not get revolts.

Money was never really a problem.
 
Originally posted by BiB


Why not go all the way and go for 1 ducat infantry ? ;)
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1 ducat???

I though the lowest cost of inf/cav are 3/9 ducats...:confused:

Well, compared to highest, they are still nice:D (something like 20/40 ducats)
 
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