Thoghts about game state and development

[no0ne86]

So, first of all i want to say thanks for one of the best 4X fantasy games i've ever played. And one more "thank you" for constant support and development. Game on release and game right now are so different that you can call it Age of Wonders 5 (or at least AoW 4.5). But perfection is never achivable and you have to move on constantly in attempts to reach it. And here i'd like to speak about things i'd like to see in game.

• Mythical units. They are weak. Even weaker thanks to last DLC that added T5 non-mythical units. Main problem of Mythics is that they cannot be enchanted (well, they can but there is only 3 or 4 spells that affect mythics). In late game T3 young drake easily kills T5 drake in face-to-face fight due to enchantments of the first one. In my opinion there is one way to fix this: divide unit's specialization and mythical status. For example said T5 drake will be fighter with mythical status: it will receive all buffs from spells and also will get mind control immunity and killing momentum (for elite medal) as mythic.
• Some mounts are boring. Like thunderbird which is supposed to be a T3 unit but gives only some lightning res. Maybe give it ability to flap wings (like in AoW3) with phis+lightning damage? Or maybe ranged attack for vyverns?
• Some old spells need to be rebalanced due to current gameplay state. For example Beacon fo Life (or how is it called?). It is a summon that heals 5 HP per turn to allies around it. But in one of the older patches all combat summons were restricted to live only 3 turns. And right now Beacon heals only 15 HP and then disappears. It is utterly useless in current state. How can it be fixed? Most obvious way is increasing it's lifetime or healing. Or maybe leave it as is and add ability to dispell negative effects from allies that it heals.
• Cultures. Dark, High and Barbaric cultures lack individuality, they can't give you any unique experience right now with so many new or reworked cultures (even feudal are more interesting now). Especially barbarians: primal culture looks and does the same (even their T2 shock unit is exact copy of barb's berserker) but also has unique features.
• Reavers are too agressive. Maybe it was their main idea but in result we have culture with unique resourse that can't be used for anything but one T3 unit. Yes, officially there is way to use it in diplomacy, but you get warspoils for, literally, war. It is really weird: you can use resourse for diplomacy, but you either don't have any since you are not fighting and has no use of it since you are in constant war... Maybe make them less agressive or add more units that can be baught for warspoils - like engineers or flame tanks. Maybe make two subcultures: one is more about war and second is more about technology?

 

[Guilu]

Regarding Mythic units: It would probably help if Frost Blades, Blight Blades and the others weren't so ridiculously strong. It's often a 50% damage boost on low tier units and still well north of 35% for a high tier unit like a Knight, thanks to the shifting of damage to magical channels. Mythic units can't compete, and the AI can't compete either, given that once again in the Ogre Update, they fail to acquire and apply these crucial enchantments. The issue has been compounded by DLC tomes providing new sources of Burning (DD, ER, WW), Poison (DD), Slowed (GK), Condemned (ER), Electrified (PF), with more effective and higher tier delivery channels, along with patches making some of the old ways better - Earth Elementals for instance are far better than when the game came out and a good source of Slowed.

There are other issues, notably with transformation availability, but these enchantments are ridiculous given their tier.

 

[Kitschy]

1. Those T5s "supposed" to be very rare, but yeah they opened a can of worms with that and this is concerning.
2. All T3 mounts with 4 Resistances are like that, they probably would need a nerf to 2 (mb more even) if they would get an active ability.

Give or take agree with other stuff. (atm Barbs can give you unique experience tho with Ritual of Alacrity)

 

[Astronlmo]

Problem with t5 isn't that they can't be enchanted, but that with tech rush you can go beyond 9 tomes and thus end up with overstacked army. For reference, you get t4 mythic units at 5th tome. If you go full damage rainbow, then you might have them on par with ironclad, for example, but this will die just after being looked at.

Young dragon won't kill adult one, since you need like 6+ enchantments, which again, means you picked enchantments and are sitting on low tier squishes.

Thus what needs to be fixed is research.

Spells are getting updates each patch. Order stuff will be updated in the upcoming dlc/patch.

Dark low tier units will be updated too.

By applying mana upkeep for research, you will fix the most of the problems (it will force you to not over enchant your units and actually think about economy, mythic units do not need buffs)

 

[$ilent_$trider]

By applying mana upkeep for research, you will fix the most of the problems (it will force you to not over enchant your units and actually think about economy, mythic units do not need buffs)

I think some split of gold and mana could work best for regular research stations and then we could have SPIs that used different ratios.
Say, regular research stations used 20/80 gold/mana and the one from the Tome of Alchemist (forget its name now) uses 80/20 gold/mana. Or something to that effect.

 

[Astronlmo]

I think some split of gold and mana could work best for regular research stations and then we could have SPIs that used different ratios.
Say, regular research stations used 20/80 gold/mana and the one from the Tome of Alchemist (forget its name now) uses 80/20 gold/mana. Or something to that effect.

I'd rather tax Research as a whole, progressively per city you have.
That way, rewards will be the same, while passive income would be taxing.
Vassals should not be taxed. Only what you generate.

Overall I want to bring Stellaris system with research jobs. But here the tax income will represent the upkeep of those research jobs. The rewards and pick ups will be a source of "free research", and thus will be very valuable.

 

[$ilent_$trider]

I'd rather tax Research as a whole, progressively per city you have.
That way, rewards will be the same, while passive income would be taxing.
Vassals should not be taxed. Only what you generate.

Overall I want to bring Stellaris system with research jobs. But here the tax income will represent the upkeep of those research jobs. The rewards and pick ups will be a source of "free research", and thus will be very valuable.

You mean by having research buildings and PIs having a cost? If so, that is what I am trying to say as well.

 

[seperamos]

Problem with t5 isn't that they can't be enchanted, but that with tech rush you can go beyond 9 tomes and thus end up with overstacked army. For reference, you get t4 mythic units at 5th tome. If you go full damage rainbow, then you might have them on par with ironclad, for example, but this will die just after being looked at.

Young dragon won't kill adult one, since you need like 6+ enchantments, which again, means you picked enchantments and are sitting on low tier squishes.

Thus what needs to be fixed is research.

Spells are getting updates each patch. Order stuff will be updated in the upcoming dlc/patch.

Dark low tier units will be updated too.

By applying mana upkeep for research, you will fix the most of the problems (it will force you to not over enchant your units and actually think about economy, mythic units do not need buffs)

Yeah the game should be going for similiar but different buffs/debuffs for each tier of spells, units, weapons, and buildings.

 

[Astronlmo]

You mean by having research buildings and PIs having a cost? If so, that is what I am trying to say as well.

Everything that generates research in your city. So, City structures, PI and SPI. It would be easier to tax the research itself, but it will have issues with separating different "free" sources, like vassals or nodes/magic mats.
To be even simplier, I want cities to PRODUCE research. And to actually produce it, you need an upkeep. 20/80 of Gold/Mana would fit nicely here, imo.
For the sake of it, conduits could start at +10 mana, some social traits could reduce maintenance a bit or generate even more mana to compensate. Gold won't be an issue.
City amount will also be important, since more cities will mean higher upkeep in total (across all of them).

 

[Deus von Vult]

1.The mythic units are often a point of discussion. The devs don't want the game to be a mythic units doomstack game. But of course this results in the units being to weak in endgame.

The biggest problem is simply the fact that mythic units are mostly large unit models. They all get countered by T1 polearms. If someone wants to have a really easy run he takes all the buffs for polearms for his civ and he will beat everything coming his way, because the game gets easier the bigger the units are. In the endgame all the neutral enemies and even the enemy armies have a lot of massive units in their army. Polearms are countering all of them and they counter charges.

2. Age of wonders 4 favoures agression over defense. I tried to stack defense and magic resistance as much as possible with my dwarfen materium civ. It is not worth it. You can better go for hyper agressive one shot glass cannons than for defense and resistance. Simply because there are so many attacks and spells which remove all of your resistance and defense with 2 or 3 attacks or spells. Mythic units tend to have a lot of defense and resistance too, but this is worthless, since one spell is enough to remove the resistance and defense.

 

[seperamos]

1.The mythic units are often a point of discussion. The devs don't want the game to be a mythic units doomstack game. But of course this results in the units being to weak in endgame.

The biggest problem is simply the fact that mythic units are mostly large unit models. They all get countered by T1 polearms. If someone wants to have a really easy run he takes all the buffs for polearms for his civ and he will beat everything coming his way, because the game gets easier the bigger the units are. In the endgame all the neutral enemies and even the enemy armies have a lot of massive units in their army. Polearms are countering all of them and they counter charges.

2. Age of wonders 4 favoures agression over defense. I tried to stack defense and magic resistance as much as possible with my dwarfen materium civ. It is not worth it. You can better go for hyper agressive one shot glass cannons than for defense and resistance. Simply because there are so many attacks and spells which remove all of your resistance and defense with 2 or 3 attacks or spells. Mythic units tend to have a lot of defense and resistance too, but this is worthless, since one spell is enough to remove the resistance and defense.

Then we need a battle role that hard counters polearm. They can be hit from afar with mages, archers, and seige. But there has to some kind of weapons triangle or weapons "tetrahedron" to give players more incentives to buildings infantry units that are not just shields or polearms.

I could see infantry fighters or infantry shock filling that niche. If anyone else has other infantry battle roles ideas, I'd love to hear it!

 

[Deus von Vult]

Then we need a battle role that hard counters polearm. They can be hit from afar with mages, archers, and seige. But there has to some kind of weapons triangle or weapons "tetrahedron" to give players more incentives to buildings infantry units that are not just shields or polearms.

I could see infantry fighters or infantry shock filling that niche. If anyone else has other infantry battle roles ideas, I'd love to hear it!

Shields, bowmen and mages. Normally Age of wonders 4 has this kind of balance:

Shields, bowmen, mages counter polearms

Poleararms counter shock infantery units, cavalery, large units

Shock units counter shields, other shock units, mages and bowmen

The thing with polearms is simply the fact how good they are in the end game. With the right buffs, heroes and support ,polearms counter everything. Especially all the large end game stuff.

Compared to shields, polearms do some serious damage and they stop shock units. Especially in endgame the mythic units eat shield units for breakfast. Gold wonders and ai often go for mythic units or hard hitting t 3 units. Most of them are monsters or shock units.

And even without massive buffs polearms counter everything aside from range. Even shield units are not that big of a problem, because you can flank them. All the endgame stuff? Polearms melt them!

 

[Balthazar69]

Reavers are too agressive. Maybe it was their main idea but in result we have culture with unique resourse that can't be used for anything but one T3 unit. Yes, officially there is way to use it in diplomacy, but you get warspoils for, literally, war. It is really weird: you can use resourse for diplomacy, but you either don't have any since you are not fighting and has no use of it since you are in constant war... Maybe make them less agressive or add more units that can be baught for warspoils - like engineers or flame tanks. Maybe make two subcultures: one is more about war and second is more about technology?

Almost totally agree. Reavers are agressives but without direct bonus associated. A war ? You must kill people if not, nothing. Subdue ? Double check to do a thing. Marked ? A spell or nothing. Cannon is a slow and predictable thing with no other options than 3 pts of action. Intimidation is a ok feature if you dont forget to activate again without whisperstone.

My dreams :
- Bonuses on active war (free city / AI challenger) Gold + Research by cities. (War economy) A need for the early.
- Warspoil can be used for the half of the price of units. Example. T1 60 gold. With warspoil : 30 gold / 30 warspoil.
- Subdue on more unit, with a simplified formula. A subdued unit can be sold (slave) for gold.
- The initial Whisperstone dormant but not totally -1 : become available with an active war, to keep the initial will of devs... but upgraded. Si vis pacem para bellum.
- A warning when intimidation is finished (5 turns actually).

 

[$ilent_$trider]

Everything that generates research in your city. So, City structures, PI and SPI. It would be easier to tax the research itself, but it will have issues with separating different "free" sources, like vassals or nodes/magic mats.
To be even simplier, I want cities to PRODUCE research. And to actually produce it, you need an upkeep. 20/80 of Gold/Mana would fit nicely here, imo.
For the sake of it, conduits could start at +10 mana, some social traits could reduce maintenance a bit or generate even more mana to compensate. Gold won't be an issue.
City amount will also be important, since more cities will mean higher upkeep in total (across all of them).

Well, yes, like, with the exception of draft and research, everything else is sort of extracted from the land, and even draft helps with growth if not recruiting anything, but research? You are constantly doing it, and sure, the initial research production from your capital doesn’t need to cast anything, but every building or province improvement that gives research could cost 1 gold and 4 mana per 5 points of research? And then maybe some buildings could have different costs or some tomes could change that?
This would also make Materium a viable option for research as well with their mines giving mana as well…

 

[Astronlmo]

1.The mythic units are often a point of discussion. The devs don't want the game to be a mythic units doomstack game. But of course this results in the units being to weak in endgame.

The biggest problem is simply the fact that mythic units are mostly large unit models. They all get countered by T1 polearms. If someone wants to have a really easy run he takes all the buffs for polearms for his civ and he will beat everything coming his way, because the game gets easier the bigger the units are. In the endgame all the neutral enemies and even the enemy armies have a lot of massive units in their army. Polearms are countering all of them and they counter charges.

2. Age of wonders 4 favoures agression over defense. I tried to stack defense and magic resistance as much as possible with my dwarfen materium civ. It is not worth it. You can better go for hyper agressive one shot glass cannons than for defense and resistance. Simply because there are so many attacks and spells which remove all of your resistance and defense with 2 or 3 attacks or spells. Mythic units tend to have a lot of defense and resistance too, but this is worthless, since one spell is enough to remove the resistance and defense.

Defense works only if you have heal.
Try defender hero+order signatures and dome of protection. It's really an impenetrable defense. Even disruption wave isn't a panacea.

 

[$ilent_$trider]

Shield units supported by a 1-hex heal are really hard to kill.

 

[Deus von Vult]

Defense works only if you have heal.
Try defender hero+order signatures and dome of protection. It's really an impenetrable defense. Even disruption wave isn't a panacea.

It is not like it is impossible to play. I have beaten some of the harder challanger maps with my materium dwarf armies built for defense. But if you go for agressive barbarian high damage builds they are always stronger. Simply because there are so many attacks and abilites and spells which remove resistance and defense. Furthermore the devs said allready, they don´t like mass heals in Age of Wonders 4. So most of the heals are either mass regenration or a power heal for one unit. Regeneration can work, but shield units often loose out against nearly anything in endgame. And even if they tank the incoming damage, the power heals are so limited it is better to stop the enemy before he can attack you in the first place.

I build shield units but only 2 for an army composition of 3 stacks. It is better to have 2 polearm units for each stack in lategame later, because they will get much stronger in the end game, because nearly all the end game units are large models. Of course materium has T3 shield units which are really not that bad. But they suffer from the same problem as all of the other units stacking defense and resistance. It all can be removed with one spell.

And i am not really a friend of nature tome regeneration. I take nature only for the really strong poison damage. Because if you want to heal low level units with regeneraton in late game they often die so fast, it is not worth to cast regeneration in the first place. Especially shield units. Even the lategame nature tome guardian unit which can cast regeneration to a nearby friendly unit gets focused down so hard in endgame if often holds the line for maybe one round and then it is dead.

But this problem is nothing new in games like Age of Wonder 4 or Warhammer Total war 3. In Warhammer Total War 3 for example it is always worth to build T1 spear units even for lategame. Shield units? Not so much unless you are playing dwarfs or chaos warriors. Age of wonders 4 has more ways of balancing or changing your units, but the principle is the same.

 

[Ferrus Animus]

Mythic units are supposed to stand on their own. But the inability to have enchantments is not just a simple power issue, but also means the mythic unit does not interact with the rest of your armies.
They don't get cave walking, do not set enemies on fire or fear, unless they do it inherently.

The result is that mythic units stand out, but negatively, because while they can be useful, they do not synergize with your strategyy unless you pick them for that.
What I think mythic units need is 2 things:
- Access to some general unit buffs, especially strategic movement-related.
- A way to get some benefits from your development path, so they actually mesh with your armies on the tactical level. That might be done by allowing select enchantments to also affect mythic units (maybe with an upkeep increase) or maybe we can add special nodes in the empire tree, on each affinity that gives your mythic units a matching benefit. Like halfway down the materium tree you can add bleeding to their attacks, or near the end of the shadow tree they get immunity to poison and disease and inflict decaying. Probably a number of ways to manage that.


As for cultures, I do think High culture needs a rework, they had issues from the start.
Barbarian and Dark though I think work as they are. Dark is a bit one-sided and needs a bit of an update, but it is coherent. And Barbarian culture is simply functional, as is. And while Primal has similarities to Barbarian I think they are quite different.
While both have a T1 optionally mounted shield unit, the warrior is meant to lock down single enemies while the protector is meant to endure.
The Charger and Berserker are funnily enough not the claimed exact copy, but very different, even as shock units. The charger is less durable and with its AoE it is great at disruption, but can't do much to take hits. The Berserker is the opposite. Thanks to Berserk and Frenzy, no matter where it goes, it will last 2 turns and deal damage. Then the Fury can be mounted, etc... those two cultures have overlap, mechanciall and thematically but I think they are quite different.


And the Reavers war spoils issue has been there since E&A too. Getting rewarded for wars against players and free cities with a resource that is used for diplomacy is contradictory. It leads to scarcity early (when the unit subjugation is the most useful) and later on can be useful to keep your frontlines limited, but does not really help maintain anything. So use them to buy cannons that at least saves some gold.
Reavers mechanics are making it difficult for them in the early game, while being a bit of a win-more mechanic later on. As such I think war spoils need a rework that both allow them to be more useful, while also reducing the reliance on them,
IMO it would be thematically very fitting if war spoils could be used for item crafting, emergency healing, production buying and such, putting an emphasis on the Reavers ability to loot and repurpose. Make all applications optional and you have a unique perk to build a culture around.

 

[Balthazar69]

If we stay only with very few changes/easy to make and keep the most of the actual proposition for reavers :

* Warspoil must be keeped, but IMO with extended effect. A lot of people complain about early with reavers. So it could be reasonnable to thing that warspoil can be used for a trade for ressources, or be used in the production of units. Perhaps only during a war (Nations during war use industries in a different way), to fit the lore.
* A easy change, its clearly a simple message for the end of intimidation. (I forget every time to consult free city once I do the first intimidation : p)

The rest need a little bit more code and subdue is tricky to balance. Because if it is too easy/possible with more units, can be OP. On an other hand, like now is not very appealing.
One thing is sure, with this lore, the ressources per war is also pretty convenient, write itself. Could be relatively easy to trigger with the first foes encounter or even a free city.

 

[Astronlmo]

It's time for edicts.

We already have strategic sustained spells, we had them in Planetfall. Would be nice to have edicts here too.

Main difference is that edicts are resource based, while spells are mana only.

Each culture should get unique edicts and interactions.

Example, Potential mystic inspiration could double the efficiency of specific edicts (they are already like edicts). Reavers could spend war spoils for boosting production, draft, stability, additional interactions with free cities and players.