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rob_mtl

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I recently read Max Hastings' Operation Pedestal, which is an account of the British convoy that ultimately saved Malta from starvation and consequent capitulation in the summer of '42 and I have some thoughts on the rather lackluster state of naval combat in HOI4:

1) the role of air power: playing as a major naval power in HOI4, one thing is abundantly clear. The game simply does not make naval aviation important enough in single player. The AI does not prioritize land-based naval bombers, and those aircraft are not dangerous enough. Operating in range of land-based naval bombers without modern fighter aircraft cover was basically suicide. While naval AA was helpful in dissuading torpedo bombers from making the most daring attacks, it was much less effective at dealing with dive bombers. Regardless of the aircraft type, all it takes is a single bomber getting a single good hit to lose a ship.

2) Torpedo damage. Torpedoes don't feel very powerful in HOI4. A single hit from a torpedo, whether delivered by air, destroyer or submarine, could sink or incapacitate even the largest of warship in WW2.

3) Screening is handled strangely. Screening destroyers existed to protect larger, slower ships (carriers, battleships, heavy cruiser, light cruisers) from torpedo attack. In order to fulfil this role adequately, they needed to be able to detect submarines. Screens without sonar should be basically useless against submarines.

4)Heavy cruisers and "light cruisers". It is well known that the distinction between these two classes is handled clumsily in-game. Even "light cruisers" were more often than not ships that needed to be protected by destroyers against other destroyers, torpedo boats and submarines. Light cruisers could potentially assist in screening carriers or battleships, but they themselves needed protection against faster, smaller vessels and submarines. I suggest getting rid of the capital/screen distinction altogether and replacing it with a more coherent target priority system. Subs would always go for the most valuable target. Smaller ships on defense would try to position themselves to defend the most valuable targets. Different ships would provide different stats to protect the fleet. So a destroyer could protect a light cruiser from submarine attack, for example. A light cruiser could provide additional AA cover for a carrier. A carrier would provide air cover for the entire fleet, etc.

5) AI submarines only ever attack convoys in HOI4. This is related to the above points. Basically, screening destroyers without sonar should have a very low chance of detecting submarines. Those submarines should prioritize the most valuable targets, have a high chance of passing through the screening line, and sinking large capital ships in a single shot. HOI4 players can safely ignore submarines in single player HOI4, while in real life they were mortally dangerous for even the largest ships.

6) Fleet size and positioning. The reason large fleets required large flagships was because of communications facilities onboard them ("heavy attack" was arguably far less important). Destroyers lacked the command and control facilities of cruisers, battleships and carriers. Without rooms full of telegraph operators, fleets could not coordinate ships positions. They would move much slower, not maintain effective formations (screening and positioning) and be unable to be in the right place at the right time. This is represented by fire control to some degree, but without at least a light cruiser present, fleets larger than 10-15 ships should be completely ineffective in-game.

Side note: I highly recommend Operation Pedestal by Max Hastings. It's a thrilling read and gives a detailed sense of the realities of early-mid war naval combat in the HOI4 period. This time period is very relevant for gameplay, as the balance of naval power is largely determined by late 1942.
 
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Before they can make land based bombers more deadly, they need to fix ranges, sea zones, aerial spotting, neutralizing air bases by sea, Carrier CAP, and transit times. While it is true that land based bombers are rather deadly to ships, there are a plethora of ways that ships in the open ocean can avoid them, as the Pacific theater often demonstrated. Land based bombers already dominate MP, and if anything, they need a nerf before the AI should be allowed to use them properly
 
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All valid points in regard to historical accuracy, but as stated many times, the main focus is that this is a game, and as such many things are simplified to make the game easier to understand, play and have "fun", however you perceive it.
 
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Something to add is allowing airbase strikes from naval carriers to disrupt / destroy airbases and planes on the ground. The US carrier force spent more time doing this than anything else.
 
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All valid points in regard to historical accuracy, but as stated many times, the main focus is that this is a game, and as such many things are simplified to make the game easier to understand, play and have "fun", however you perceive it.
I don’t want to be provocative but the naval system of the game is not about simplicity or “fun”. The problem is bad design altogether with lack of strategic thinking and applicable opportunities in naval battles. I can tolerate and accept the excuse of being a game only if the choice of the developers is serving something good. Naval system is not bad because the developers chose it. Really, nothing funny about CL spam and telegraphed strategies (or habits rather) which don't change according to the situation. Take your biggest task force, collide it with the enemy, see the results . Neither funny nor historical, just a bad design.
 
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nothing funny about CL spam and telegraphed strategies (or habits rather) which don't change according to the situation
  1. How SS or DD spam will be different? :D However you rebalance things you'll end up with one extreme ship class / design / TF composition beating others. It's a game, you can test one extreme strategy, fail then just reload and test another. RL people didn't have this liberty in WWII, they had to hedge.
  2. I'd say it's fair to say Germany tried to follow SS spam strategy in WWII, US -- CV spam on PTO and allies in general -- DE/PC and a bit of CVE for Atlantic. So "some spam" strategy is a RL thing.
Take your biggest task force, collide it with the enemy, see the results . Neither funny nor historical
Correct me but what happens in the game:
  1. GER shields its modest surface fleet from RN and tries to choke off ENG's resource and supply trasfer routes with SS.
  2. ENG keeps RN out of GER reach in case it needs to defend against Sealion. She also uses RN to support D-Day.
  3. ITA shies away in ports against superior RN Mediterranean fleet.
  4. USA does island hopping with CVs.
  5. Everyone tries not to expose its fleet to NAVs as they're the most IC-efficient Navy killers.
Isn't it historical? :D The only difference is Navy buffs want to sink enemy fleet specifically with its own Navy instead of more efficient NAVs so they try to force a decisive battle for which doomstacks are more efficient. But decisive battles ARE mostly ahistorical in WWII context so what's wrong with the game producing ahistorical results in ahistorical context? If you take Pearl Harbor as THE decisive naval battle of WWII then IJN used exactly a doomstack :D

PS I also think Naval warfare should be made more interesting, but it'll be at the expense of historicity not the other way around IMHO.
 
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  1. How SS or DD spam will be different? :D However you rebalance things you'll end up with one extreme ship class / design / TF composition beating others. It's a game, you can test one extreme strategy, fail then just reload and test another. RL people didn't have this liberty in WWII, they had to hedge.
  2. I'd say it's fair to say Germany tried to follow SS spam strategy in WWII, US -- CV spam on PTO and allies in general -- DE/PC and a bit of CVE for Atlantic. So "some spam" strategy is a RL thing.

Correct me but what happens in the game:
  1. GER shields its modest surface fleet from RN and tries to choke off ENG's resource and supply trasfer routes with SS.
  2. ENG keeps RN out of GER reach in case it needs to defend against Sealion. She also uses RN to support D-Day.
  3. ITA shies away in ports against superior RN Mediterranean fleet.
  4. USA does island hopping with CVs.
  5. Everyone tries not to expose its fleet to NAVs as they're the most IC-efficient Navy killers.
Isn't it historical? :D The only difference is Navy buffs want to sink enemy fleet specifically with its own Navy instead of more efficient NAVs so they try to force a decisive battle for which doomstacks are more efficient. But decisive battles ARE mostly ahistorical in WWII context so what's wrong with the game producing ahistorical results in ahistorical context? If you take Pearl Harbor as THE decisive naval battle of WWII then IJN used exactly a doomstack :D

PS I also think Naval warfare should be made more interesting, but it'll be at the expense of historicity not the other way around IMHO.
1) I did not defend or criticized OP’s arguments and said nothing like “DD or Sub spam would be better”. And if we come to the meta, yeah there will always be a meta we agree upon that but first, since its a game, a more “all classes inclusive” rock-paper-scissor rule could have been implemented. Now, a single ship class rules all others. (and at least, if we want to make such a thing it must have been CV’s not CL’s) CL’s are best naval teeth-to-teeth fighters alongside with being best raid tools. Believing that the system need revamping and working bad right now is still a very solid starting point as you said in the end.

2) I am confused at this part a little bit. I understand the Germans spam, yeah that’s real for them due to lack of production capacity and being far behind than Allies in form of surface vessels but the other naval powers you mentioned produced whole pieces of naval equipment in a large scale from SS’s to the CV’s. Yeah US leaned to the CV production but composing your strategy around a vessel is not spamming. We are talking about producing CL’s and nothing more. The excuse of being a game must appeared at this stage. Historically, BB’s times were over at that time but giving some buffs which ensuring their usefulness is a good excuse for an example.

3) You may be right (and also seemed not wrong to me as an enjoyer but in the end it is clear that I am not a naval historian) about the examples above but don’t forget that small clashes also were important like Coral Sea. (especially in the period of both sides carrier forces much more minimal like 3 v 4 and they had to do something from the scratch) Yeah US’s naval production capacity makes hard to see clearly since 20 Essex Class Fleet Carrier is a little bit… hard to imagine to impose a strategy against that but as I said, I am not against certain concepts like doomstacks totally. I am, again, saying naval aspect of the game is neither historical nor funny (for me at least and I believe I firmly stated my arguments) and I don’t see any reason to not criticizing it.
 
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  1. How SS or DD spam will be different? :D However you rebalance things you'll end up with one extreme ship class / design / TF composition beating others. It's a game, you can test one extreme strategy, fail then just reload and test another. RL people didn't have this liberty in WWII, they had to hedge.
  2. I'd say it's fair to say Germany tried to follow SS spam strategy in WWII, US -- CV spam on PTO and allies in general -- DE/PC and a bit of CVE for Atlantic. So "some spam" strategy is a RL thing.

Correct me but what happens in the game:
  1. GER shields its modest surface fleet from RN and tries to choke off ENG's resource and supply trasfer routes with SS.
  2. ENG keeps RN out of GER reach in case it needs to defend against Sealion. She also uses RN to support D-Day.
  3. ITA shies away in ports against superior RN Mediterranean fleet.
  4. USA does island hopping with CVs.
  5. Everyone tries not to expose its fleet to NAVs as they're the most IC-efficient Navy killers.
Isn't it historical? :D The only difference is Navy buffs want to sink enemy fleet specifically with its own Navy instead of more efficient NAVs so they try to force a decisive battle for which doomstacks are more efficient. But decisive battles ARE mostly ahistorical in WWII context so what's wrong with the game producing ahistorical results in ahistorical context? If you take Pearl Harbor as THE decisive naval battle of WWII then IJN used exactly a doomstack :D

PS I also think Naval warfare should be made more interesting, but it'll be at the expense of historicity not the other way around IMHO.
Yeah I don't think I would describe the current naval gameplay loop as "fun" game design. The most interesting part of naval gameplay is the naval designer. The biggest limitation is the inability of the AI to effectively design, build and deploy naval units. As the Allies, there is no Battle of the Atlantic to speak of. You can win the war having never built a single ship. As the Axis, Allied naval power is a minor irritation because you have to wait a little longer until your cheesy naval invasion gets through.

I think it is absolutely possible for Paradox to rework the navy game and make it more challenging, fun, engaging, and historically immersive--if not outright realistic.

I'm not suggesting that they model every aspect of WW2 naval combat with perfect accuracy. What they have right now is actually a fairly adequate portrayal of WW1 naval combat.

My main suggestions boil down to making submarines and naval aviation more compelling threats for a human player playing against the AI.
 
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If you take Pearl Harbor as THE decisive naval battle of WWII then IJN used exactly a doomstack
I don't have strong opinion one way or another, but I feel it should be clearly stated that Pearl Harbor decided nothing, such decisive battle it was.
 
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Before they can make land based bombers more deadly, they need to fix ranges, sea zones, aerial spotting, neutralizing air bases by sea, Carrier CAP, and transit times. While it is true that land based bombers are rather deadly to ships, there are a plethora of ways that ships in the open ocean can avoid them, as the Pacific theater often demonstrated. Land based bombers already dominate MP, and if anything, they need a nerf before the AI should be allowed to use them properly
This sounds true for multiplayer. From what I have seen, multiplayer naval play is much more multifaceted and impactful on gameplay. My suggestions mainly concern single player.
 
there are a plethora of ways that ships in the open ocean can avoid them
It is certainly true that the USN was able to operate carrier task forces in the wide open Pacific without land-based air cover, but this was not possible in the Mediterranean. Before the Battle of El Alamein, any Allied surface ship, including carriers, found itself within striking range of land-based bombers that none of the carrier-based aircraft of the day were well-suited to defend against in the Central Med. Operating carriers in that theatre was prohibitively dangerous until land-based air superiority was established.

During Operation Pedestal, the Royal Navy, operating a fleet that was roughly the same size as the US force at Midway, was attacked for four days straight with over 600 Axis aircraft operating in theatre--that's two to three times what the USN was facing in the Pacific at the time. The Pedestal convoy fleet's position was known shortly after leaving Gibraltar and tracked continuously and relentlessly until the survivors arrived at Malta. There was no hiding, running away or escaping.

My feeling is that operating a navy successfully in-game should be a sort of endgame goal, not something that can be easily accomplished with the 1936 starting fleet or by spamming a single class of ship. The player should first have to to master the air, build up bases and maintain overseas convoy routes and contend with a genuinely dangerous submarine threat.

I'd like to see less successful Sea Lions and DDays and more games that are played through 1945, making late-game naval tech vital for more than just RP.
 
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rock-paper-scissor rule could have been implemented. Now, a single ship class rules all others. (and at least, if we want to make such a thing it must have been CV’s not CL’s) CL’s are best naval teeth-to-teeth fighters alongside with being best raid tools. Believing that the system need revamping and working bad right now is still a very solid starting point as you said in the end
  1. I don't spend much time on Navy as I play minors so "Navy buff real Navy" is not an option but are CLs are above competition at all. Last time I've seen the tests, though it was long time ago, there was a rock-paper-scissors of CVs beat Capitals (don't remember were those SHBB, BB or CAs), capitals beat CLs due to hit-chance for HA and/ or hit-profile and/or torp damage and/or HP. Is it no more?
  2. My guess would be a swarm of roach DDs as low-IC damage sponge would help CLs. Is it not so?
  3. Irrespective of the previous two points there are roles for non-CL classes IMHO
    1. SS arguably more IC-efficient as raiders than CLs.
    2. DDs are the cheapest counter to SS.
    3. Capitals are:
      1. The most IC-efficient in securing Naval supremacy.
      2. The only ones that provide meaningful Naval Invasion Support.
      3. Serve as NAV magnets (CVs are arguably too precious a ships for that).
I understand the Germans spam, yeah that’s real for them due to lack of production capacity and being far behind than Allies in form of surface vessels but the other naval powers you mentioned produced whole pieces of naval equipment in a large scale from SS’s to the CV’s.
  1. So RL Germany did what a player in HOI4 does -- maximized IC-efficiency for the tasks :D
  2. As per others, the question should the game simulate what they did IRL or with the benefit of hindsight we know what they did IRL was waste of labor and materials?
    1. Italy's RL RM was basically confined to ports so wouldn't Italy have been better off forgetting about capitals and spending their enormous cost on NAVs and air cover? Because if you say yes then that's exactly what ITA should do in-game IMHO.
    2. FRA also wasted so much on capitals but in the end it lost the land war and her fleet ended up being useless. Shouldn't HOI4's FRA also concentrate on land warfare?
small clashes also were important like Coral Sea
  1. I agree about significance but with the benefit of the hindsight hadn't Japan made a mistake by not commiting to the battle in force? Surely they'd have lost on industrial capacity in a long run anyway but would have created troubles for Australia in a short run IMHO. If the answer is yes then IJN didn't "doomstack enough" :) Just like in the game :)
  2. IMHO doomstacking was an integral part of RL Fleet in Being doctrine. Avoid battles when you're weaker and commit to a total overmatch when you're stronger.
I believe I firmly stated my arguments
Often I don't imply we're of the opposite opinions, sometimes it's just a quote from you is the most convenient to illustrate something I want to say.
As the Allies, there is no Battle of the Atlantic to speak of
I think you imply Axis AI does not present strong enough a challenge, but IMHO these are different things -- game model and AI. Choking ENG is quite a working strategy for a player's led Axis.
You can win the war having never built a single ship. As the Axis, Allied naval power is a minor irritation because you have to wait a little longer until your cheesy naval invasion gets through.
  1. Most of RN's IC is in Strike Forces and it stations the lion's share of it in the Channel / North Sea. So "waiting a little longer" building hordes of NAVs to force AI to detach ships for repairs and waiting really long till they do it. And still building some fleet of yours in order not to wait till hell freezes over. I wouldn't call it doing nothing as per the Naval combat.
  2. I agree that the gist of the "Naval problem" is Navy plays minor role to land warfare. And you can certainly make convoys more visible, easier to sink thus forcing Navy to provide long term Naval supremacy for Naval Invasions instead of one second of it but what would it lead to? Axis not being able to do Sea Lion, having no chance for a landing in Egypt behind ENG front line. IMHO it's much worse an outcome game-wise.
  3. If you make Navy more important then you'd need to more or less equalize Axis and Allies in terms of initial Navy roster and/or give them an ability to ramp up to ENG / USA numbers. Now you have Axis that plays land combat first and Allies that CAN leverage the Navy to some extent. Equalizing them will take away this diversity.
I think it is absolutely possible for Paradox to rework the navy game and make it more challenging, fun, engaging, and historically immersive--if not outright realistic.
I think that's the problem with "Navy needs total rework" threads unlike rebalance that @Kayzer-i Anadolu mentioned. They should start with:
  1. What the Naval "everything" should look like?
  2. How it should interact with other aspects of the game?
  3. How it will still keep land-based / low-Navy countries interesting to play?
  4. How such an enormous rework will add fun to justify dev resources and players' discontent due to quite a long disruption in balance?
Somehow "Naval rework" threads always concentrate on means like caps on TFs rather than ends of why it should be done at all.
My main suggestions boil down to making submarines and naval aviation more compelling threats for a human player playing against the AI.
  1. NAVs may be dangerous enough a threat even now it's just AI does not build enough of them leaving this cheese entirely for human consumption. But that does not even implies a rebalance, it's about AI priorities. E.g. ITA definitely builds too little of them yet wastes CIVs building NICs.
  2. Yet even with the number of NAVs ITA builds now:
    1. ENG AI normally paints Central and Eastern Med in red or yellow at least.
    2. In terms of Strike Forces ENG AI's (sic!) Mediterranean fleet is actually significantly weaker than all of RM forces. It's just ITA AI also paints at least Eastern Med red and locks up RM in ports.
  3. I really doubt devs didn't try making ITA stronger in the Med. It might well be too strong an ITA makes ENG positions in Suez and North Africa as a whole untenable. That would take away one theater and be more boring IMHO.
I'd like to see less successful Sea Lions and DDays
In all AI-only games I observed GER never succeded in Sea Lion and mostly never done it at all. First few Allied landings in FRA also fail and being torn between Eastern and Western fronts Axis only gradually succumbs to combined Allied powers -- USA included.
 
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2) Torpedo damage. Torpedoes don't feel very powerful in HOI4. A single hit from a torpedo, whether delivered by air, destroyer or submarine, could sink or incapacitate even the largest of warship in WW2.

I agree, but since it is luck based it leads to infinite monkey meta.


3) Screening is handled strangely. Screening destroyers existed to protect larger, slower ships (carriers, battleships, heavy cruiser, light cruisers) from torpedo attack. In order to fulfil this role adequately, they needed to be able to detect submarines. Screens without sonar should be basically useless against submarines.
Wouldnt they still try to charge in the general direction of the submarine attack? Unused depth charges are useless, so better to throw them around, even if in the wrong direction?

(I only know naval combat from movies and Alistar McLean adventure stories...)
 
It is certainly true that the USN was able to operate carrier task forces in the wide open Pacific without land-based air cover, but this was not possible in the Mediterranean. Before the Battle of El Alamein, any Allied surface ship, including carriers, found itself within striking range of land-based bombers that none of the carrier-based aircraft of the day were well-suited to defend against in the Central Med. Operating carriers in that theatre was prohibitively dangerous until land-based air superiority was established.

During Operation Pedestal, the Royal Navy, operating a fleet that was roughly the same size as the US force at Midway, was attacked for four days straight with over 600 Axis aircraft operating in theatre--that's two to three times what the USN was facing in the Pacific at the time. The Pedestal convoy fleet's position was known shortly after leaving Gibraltar and tracked continuously and relentlessly until the survivors arrived at Malta. There was no hiding, running away or escaping.

My feeling is that operating a navy successfully in-game should be a sort of endgame goal, not something that can be easily accomplished with the 1936 starting fleet or by spamming a single class of ship. The player should first have to to master the air, build up bases and maintain overseas convoy routes and contend with a genuinely dangerous submarine threat.

I'd like to see less successful Sea Lions and DDays and more games that are played through 1945, making late-game naval tech vital for more than just RP.

The reason it isn't possible in the Mediterranean is because there are no places that are out of range of an airbase and never a way to hide because of it's nature as an inland sea. Right now, all the air-to-sea balance is focused on the Mediterranian due to the way spotting, naval battle duration, transit time, etc. is handled. Combined with several other issues with the engine (including a few dealing with map projections) it means that air power in the Pacific (and to a lesser degree the Atlantic) is incredibly overtuned

Personally, I would prefer weaker land-based bombers in the Mediterranean if it means a more satisfying Pacific war, than vice versa

I will completely agree that I would prefer more use of late game techs, but given real curves of tech, bombers should probably scale slightly better than ships. If anything, I would argue that Navy should dominate overall until 43-44, and ship scaling late game should move to be focused on anti-air boats (though that would require anti-air boats to actually work against land-based bombers)

I think that's the problem with "Navy needs total rework" threads unlike rebalance that @Kayzer-i Anadolu mentioned. They should start with:
  1. What the Naval "everything" should look like?
  2. How it should interact with other aspects of the game?
  3. How it will still keep land-based / low-Navy countries interesting to play?
  4. How such an enormous rework will add fun to justify dev resources and players' discontent due to quite a long disruption in balance?
Somehow "Naval rework" threads always concentrate on means like caps on TFs rather than ends of why it should be done at all.

I'm not sure which rework threads you've been reading, but the ones I've seen have been focused on ways to expand naval operations, such as local bombardment, so nations can use their sea power without ever engaging the enemy fleet, which would in turn reduce the reliance on force concentration as "defender" nations have to actually hunt opposing fleets down, and a smaller navy can do things against larger ones, in turn making navy less of a dead end investment
 
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The most interesting part of naval gameplay is the naval designer. The biggest limitation is the inability of the AI to effectively design, build and deploy naval units.
The other biggest limitation is the comparative uselessness of the naval designer. (Since you are encouraged to build the cheapest possible ships to get the hulls in the water faster.)

IRL it didn't take that much longer time to build a battleship with four turrets than one turret - it just took considerably more resources both at the dockside but more importantly among the inland supporting industries.

Meanwhile in HoI4 you are always maxed out at 5 shipyards for BB, meaning "bigger and better" ships take a lot longer time.
The amount of shipyards you can use should be related to the size/cost of the ship, so a smaller BB could maybe only use 4 shipyards, while the biggest and boldest SHBB designs would allow for using 8 or 9 (at immense cost in resources, but allowing you to churn those bad boys out once every two years if you can afford it)

(Another option would be allowing +1 shipyard per tech level in that ship class. Not as beautiful a method IMO, but at least means you always profit from researching late-war hulls, and that you can get those new ships out faster if you can afford to)
 
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  1. I don't spend much time on Navy as I play minors so "Navy buff real Navy" is not an option but are CLs are above competition at all. Last time I've seen the tests, though it was long time ago, there was a rock-paper-scissors of CVs beat Capitals (don't remember were those SHBB, BB or CAs), capitals beat CLs due to hit-chance for HA and/ or hit-profile and/or torp damage and/or HP. Is it no more?
Capitals are better than yesterday but not in the position to counter CL's even today due to high IC cost, only thing you need to do is a little bit roach DD's with torpedo (as you mentioned in second paragragph) or just torpedo armament for one slot of a CL. Still, CL spam is the only good thing you can produce for your fleet unfortunately, we are not in a position which you can evaluate the situation and act according to it.

  1. Irrespective of the previous two points there are roles for non-CL classes IMHO
    1. SS arguably more IC-efficient as raiders than CLs.
    2. DDs are the cheapest counter to SS.
    3. Capitals are:
      1. The most IC-efficient in securing Naval supremacy.
      2. The only ones that provide meaningful Naval Invasion Support.
      3. Serve as NAV magnets (CVs are arguably too precious a ships for that).
This section is not so true and I will list why I am thinking like that:

1) No, they are not if you only fighting with convoys and their escorts. 5-6 CL's with full batteries can melt down an entire convoy and their 10-15 escort DD's in a second. Currently, usage of SS in a game would result in several directions according to whom you raid but I need to answer the 2. phrase. DD's are not the cheapest counter to SS. Radio and naval bombers is. In my tests, without air power, German fleet subs (or sub III's) destroys UK's SS hunter DD's too even though you sunk your IC and research to Depth charge 3, radar eqp., and hull 3 destroyers. In the best outcome, you go equal trade but its not equal since you sunk research and production to your DD's more than German SS's. Funny thing is, Naval bomvers with radar in region melts SS's even withouth DD support. There is an imbalance.

3) The things you wrote about capitals are generally true but we have a little paradox in here. Countries which holds naval potenital in this game already starts with a very good capital ship count. (US with 15 BB's for example). For the tasks you list, these ships are more than enough actually. Also NAV magnet is a bit contraversial. If there were no abusrd SHBB design (which people abondened to do nowadays cuz its a silly idea) a NAV will always target a CV due to calculated weights. So, they are actually more like a defender from heavy batteries with sitting between screen line and carrier line.

For the others, I understood your point and where you stand. I agree or disagree some of them but they are open to dicussion and I can be persuaded too for further discussion. But this is all from me for now.
 

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but the ones I've seen have been focused on ways to expand naval operations, such as local bombardment, so nations can use their sea power without ever engaging the enemy fleet, which would in turn reduce the reliance on force concentration as "defender" nations have to actually hunt opposing fleets down, and a smaller navy can do things against larger ones, in turn making navy less of a dead end investment
Capitals are:
... The only ones that provide meaningful Naval Invasion Support.
Don't know whos's discussing but Naval Invasion support IS bombardment. And you don't need to issue an order, you can just park a TF next to the tile where land combat happens. It provides up to 25% malus to enemy stats so it'd be stupid not to use it if you can face an enemy fleet if got unlucky.
 
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I agree, but since it is luck based it leads to infinite monkey meta.
The desired "meta" I would want is a risk/reward analysis for using valuable capital ships. Sending your capitals out to support a risky naval invasion? Might be worth it, but there's a 50/50 chance you'll lose one to submarine or aerial torpedoes. I don't have a problem with it being luck-based, as long as you can increase your chances via doctrine, technology and overall strategic position. In RL, the Royal Navy survived in the Mediterranean against the odds by always be willing to risk more than the enemy. Meanwhile, the Italians stuck to a pure fleet in being doctrine that doomed their naval ambitions. When a distraught admiral asked if they should turn back a task force after the sinking of the carrier HMS Eagle, Churchill said no, "that's why we build the damn ships!" Older (and sometimes newer) vessels were regularly sacrificed to attain major strategic objectives.

Wouldnt they still try to charge in the general direction of the submarine attack? Unused depth charges are useless, so better to throw them around, even if in the wrong direction?

(I only know naval combat from movies and Alistar McLean adventure stories...)
In order to prevent torpedoing, you have to either visually spot a surfaced sub or hear it with sonar or an old school hydrophone. Later on, more advanced sonar and radar would give you more chances of spotting the sub either surfaced or submerged, but *by far* the most effective method of detecting submarines was by air throughout the war. In the early war, many subs were "detected" only after they sunk a ship (usually a merchant ship).

Depth charges are a very inaccurate weapon. When a destroyer or group of destroyers found a sub, they would start depth charging to try to and force it to surface, sink it or at the least scare it away. This was done in patterns to maximize the chances of a hit, but a lot of luck was required. A typical pursuit of a single submarine could take many hours or even days.

The implications for this for convoy escort were that destroyers had to abandon the convoys they were escorting if they were to pursue enemy submarines. This is where the hunter-killer group doctrine developed by the British came in. Direct convoy escorts would be a mix of older corvettes and destroyers, while a second group of more well-equipped ships (destroyers with advanced equipment, escort carriers with advanced aircraft acting in coordination with land-based assets) would patrol more widely and respond to specific threats. The hunter-killers weren't escorts--they were a strike force.

Until mid-1943 or so, there was no effective way to completely protect convoys from submarine attack. The Allies sent more convoys than they needed to for vital missions, because they knew there was a very good chance that many would get sunk. The Malta convoy in 1942 was considered a suicide mission. It succeeded in saving the island from starvation and refueling the RAF base there, but its sailors had been "written off" by military planners.

I think HOI4 would benefit from more desperate choices. Certain operations (naval invasions, paratroopers, defending overseas provinces) should be much riskier. On the flipside, "safe" gameplay should be less rewarding.
 
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5-6 CL's with full batteries can melt down an entire convoy and their 10-15 escort DD's in a second.
I agree with that but I specifically said
SS arguably more IC-efficient as raiders than CLs.
  1. CLs require higher IC-investment AND they're much higher value-at-risk. They're glass-ships, they'd be at least severely beaten if not annihilated in no time if they meet a "proper" TF. Do you mean they're too good against AI?
  2. But again I agree, SS should do better job against convoys, that's their only role. Too slow for "proper" TFs and they freak out anyway.
DD's are not the cheapest counter to SS. Radio and naval bombers is
Yepp, you're right. NAVs are the best but it might be THE rock-paper-scissors. Allies dwarfs Axis in Navy so the latter should have a counter. And even more important for playing minors and/or landlocked nations.
The things you wrote about capitals are generally true but we have a little paradox in here. Countries which holds naval potenital in this game already starts with a very good capital ship count. (US with 15 BB's for example).
Yepp. Guess it might be a compromise between those who want a more even sandbox game and those who RP / prefer more historyish feel. Just imagine what a storm it'll be have if ENG is reduced to GER level in terms of naval power :p

PS Sorry, I clicked wrong icon for the like at first :)
 
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