• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
It's not just Ascension Perks that need a balance tweak but Traditions too. For 7 Tradition slots, we basically have two "choices" on any given playthrough because the other five slots are occupied by Genetics/Cybernetics/Synthetics/Psionics(aka Ascension), Supremacy, Expansion(Void Dweller especially), Prosperity and Harmony/Synchronicity. Ascension Tradition is self-explanatory, Supremacy is a must-have for Military, Expansion for early-game growth and Empire Size reduction and is a must-pick for Void Dwellers, Prosperity for Economic benefits and Harmony for Pop Upkeep, Empire Size reduction, Stability and Planet Ascension perks(and unlocking Holy Covenants for non-Spiritualists). Synchronicity is Harmony equivalent for Gestalts.
Except... That any number of other players would disagree with you on your choice of must haves, arguing that they are optional, except probably for the ascension path. So it is not that "we" basically have two choices, but that you do, and it is solely because you choose for perfectly valid reasons of your own to restrict your playing style to playing in a particular way that leaves you just two choices.

As an example of a person who'd disagree with you on your picks, and speaking singleplayer only on Grand Admiral:
  1. I consider Supremacy entirely optional unless I get intro trouble early, am boxed in with negligible room for peaceful expansion, or am playing an early-war build where I conquer using my own fleets rather than by spearheading alliance fleets; If I feel the need for Supremacy in the early game, it is very, very, powerful and nothing does the job anywhere near as well as it does, but if I don't need Supremacy in the early game I am usually better off picking a stronger economic tradition than ever picking Supremacy
  2. I love Expansion for wide direct control play, and will pick it nearly every time if that's my goal, but if playing more vassal focused with a smaller core empire it is easy to do without Expansion
  3. I consider Prosperity the weakest economic tradition, and it is easily skipped

So of your 5 must haves, one I haven't picked the last five years due to its weakness from an economic perspective compared to alternatives and two are heavily dependant on build and circumstances. The ascension path I'll always pick and Harmony is a great general purpose pick, so I'll almost always pick that.

On the other hand, here are two traditions I almost always pick:
  1. I consider Diplomacy the strongest tradition in the game, full stop, due to its ability to let me start snowballing my economy faster than any of the other economic traditions by diplomatically neutralizing potential enemies and allowing easy mutual defense, allowing me to reinvest a lot more in my economy earlier due to less need for an early fleet; It isn't a must-have for me, but it is very, very, close to being so. No other tradition comes even close to the economic benefits and ability to ensure that wars are fought when and where I want it rather than when some AI decides to attack me. Even if I play an early war build using my own fleets and hence pick Supremacy, Diplomacy is still very powerful as just two picks gives me 2 envoys, which means a lot faster first contact influence, which means I can claim more systems earlier
  2. Statecraft is another very strong general-purpose tradition due to how the council is a force multiplier on economy, research, and military, initially small but growing in importance as leaders level, so I'll usually invest at least 3 points in it fairly early for XP from agenda completion and +25% agenda progress (or even as first pick if playing high-unity)

These are unlikely to be considered amongst the strongest by the majority of players, though the higher difficulty they play on the more likely it is. Does that make either them or me wrong? No, it just means that I play the game differently from the majority of players.

For that matter, I am probably one of the few players who like picking up Domination in the mid-game as 6th or 7th tradition since I like to play very large empires, but occasionally I'll pick it up early. That's when I don't skip it entirely. It certainly isn't one of the most powerful traditions, but I like it and there are a few situations in which it shines. It is very definitely a "nice to have".

Domination is much maligned, and for good reason I might add, but it has a few things going for it.
  • If playing high-tech without a zero-ES from POPs build Domination's -10% global ES from all POPs, which is additive with Harmony and Psionic Theory and multiplicative on local sources of POP ES reduction, is very valuable in the late game for cheaper planetary ascensions and increased research rate
  • +0.5 influence/mth, +20% councilor XP, +50 edict fund is valuable in the early game (granted, by itself 0.5 influence/mth takes a long time to really amount to anything much, but first contact influence scales by influence income)
  • +1 initial official level stacking with other sources of starting level helps recruit mid-level officials in the mid-game onwards, occasionally highlevel ones, and officials are the hardest to level. Since officials are multipliers on POP production and POP ES reduction, this helps a lot if playing wide direct control in ensuring that sectors are properly governed
 
Last edited:
  • 6Like
  • 5
Reactions:
EVERYONE KILL THIS MAN
Hehe. :D

I'd love for Prosperity to be a competitive tradition for my playing style, which most frequently revolves around large scale peaceful expansion all over the place in the early game, building up a strong economy allowing me to go on either subjugate or conquer others easily, the sort of thing Prosperity's design seems to be tailored towards, but as I see it Diplomacy is the stronger economic tradition, and when playing that way Expansion is likely to be picked early too, and Statecraft as well, and then there's an ascension path, and if I am focusing on the economy but not picking up Prosperity in the early game, then I am definitely picking Harmony as the stronger economic tradition from the mid-game onwards before Prosperity, and before I know of it I've run out of traditions.

It isn't that Prosperity doesn't do good things, it totally does, but the competition is stiff. As far as I am concerned, Prosperity is very much a roleplaying tradition, and I love that the game allows enough variety that reasonable minds can differ on this issue and provide moderately convincing arguments that I'm wrong. :)
 
Last edited:
I'll chime in with my unpopular take.
We have 2-3 more ascenscion perk slots than we need.

As it is now, I can always pick what I want for a build and have a couple picks for flexibility. I shouldn't get "everything you want every game". I should pick and choose so I get different play experiences based on which approach I try out.
That being said, I think we should straight up remove all ascension perks that are "just numbers", which also suddenly reduces the number of pick available.

Give us mechanically different choices to differentiate our empires instead.
Detox is a "good" ascension perk because it opens new gameplay. Nihilistic aquisition is also "good" for the same reason.
Technological ascendancy is a "bad" perk because it is just a numbers change. Master builders is also "bad" for the same reason.

Note that when i say "good" and "bad" here it has NOTHING to do with powerlevel, as I am looking at it from a game design perspective.


All those "mandatory" perks aren't actually mandatory, people just get stuck in specific neural pathways, once a particular setup have triggered the dopamine release of "insert personal wincondition here".
No single empire NEEDS any of the generic perks, those are just number buffs.
If you "need" to play the game 1-5% faster and feel that is mandatory to keep up, lower the difficulty and enjoy those other perks you want to try?
 
  • 7
  • 4
Reactions:
Except its not tough. Some of them are just too good. Which means I will never pick the other ones.
There's also the opposite, some are so incredibly bad there's no reason to ever take them like Detox.
 
  • 10
Reactions:
Should we have more Ascension Perk slots? Nah. Hard choices are good choices.

Are there enough Ascension Perks? Well, there are a ton of APs nowadays, especially if you own many DLCs.

Are there enough interesting Ascension Perk choices? That's... debatable.

From my view, the problem with Ascension Perks are:

> There are some extremely weak options that simply need to be revised because they are essentially "never picks". That being said, the introduction of the leader type cap came along with an underrated stealth AP revision that improved many of them for good measure. But I would love to see things like Detox or Enigmatic engineering getting the "Eternal Vigilance treatment" and thus, becoming their own unique, powerful things

> One of your APs is always going to be an Ascension Path perk, and for good reason. I don't see how this might change in the future.

> There are certain builds that practically require an AP in order to work (see also: Aquatic + hydrocentric). That's one less AP choice for you, too

> There is a bit of an anticlimax regarding Ascension Perk choices. Once you pick your starter perks + ascension path perk, nothing comes close to those in terms of "wow factor". It is a bit sad that in the end all there is is "filler". I don't know if a cathegory of "advanced Ascension Perks" could solve this, or if I am just trying to overcompensate here the inherent snowballing nature of the game
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
Megastructures? Colossus Project?
Kinda, but I always try to get those as early as possible as long as the tech allows it. Otherwise, I just wait for them with an empty slot, which always feels a bit gamey. My last two APs picks tend to be either those ones, or "heh, whatever", but that's perhaps just me.
 
Last edited:
As for what balance tweaks I'd make, I'd definitely consolidate quite a few of them. One that comes to mind for me is Detox + World Shaper + Hydrocentric(which can only be taken if Aquatic). I would merge those three into one that permits you to Terraform any "Terraformable" Toxic, Frozen, Molten or Barren Planet into w/e Climate type you prefer. It would also permit Terraforming into Gaia Worlds and unlocks Ocean Paradise planetary decision for Ocean Worlds(for Aquatic factions).
I came here to post this. Obviously keep the checks for appropriate DLC (toxoids for toxic terraforming, etc), but merging those three into World Shaper is a no-brainer.
 
  • 6
Reactions:
I play with a custom mod that adds a single extra tradition tree slot, and the associated ascension perk with it. It helps a lot in allowing me to try out different traditions and perks without breaking the game like a lot of the extra tradition mods do.

Some perks could honestly just be made into late game technologies, Detox and Master Builders comes to mind.
 
  • 5
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Megastructures? Colossus Project?
That's the thing though, megastructures become so integral to the late game economy most of the time it's not even really a choice. Especailly if you're not using mods like Gigastructures/Kilostructures, which makes adding more non-Pop resource streams available. When choices become functionally mandatory, it's not longer a choice. Master Builders makes sense as a choice, build them faster and more at once. But gating Dyson Spheres and Matter Decompressors behind an Ascension Perk was a mistake. Again, unless they added in more ways to collect minerals and energy late game with kilostructures being in the base game.
 
That's the thing though, megastructures become so integral to the late game economy most of the time it's not even really a choice. Especailly if you're not using mods like Gigastructures/Kilostructures, which makes adding more non-Pop resource streams available. When choices become functionally mandatory, it's not longer a choice. Master Builders makes sense as a choice, build them faster and more at once. But gating Dyson Spheres and Matter Decompressors behind an Ascension Perk was a mistake. Again, unless they added in more ways to collect minerals and energy late game with kilostructures being in the base game.
For what it is worth, at least for singleplayer, I find Dyson Spheres and Matter Decompressors very easy to forego when playing as an overlord relying on vassals for basic resources or when playing a strong trade build.

For other builds, it differs. They are powerful for any build, but it isn't as if you need them to do well or "win" the game, however it is defined, so I find it completely acceptable that the ability to construct them is gated by the opportunity cost of using an ascendancy perk.

To me they are "win more" options, not "win" options. If I can afford the opportunity cost of building them in the first place, I have for all practical purposes already won the game and they aren't going to make any difference to the ultimate outcome.
 
  • 4
Reactions:
For what it is worth, at least for singleplayer, I find Dyson Spheres and Matter Decompressors very easy to forego when playing as an overlord relying on vassals for basic resources or when playing a strong trade build.

Yeah, with a few Vassals and a decent-sized Trade League to act as a TV multiplier, it's pretty easy in 3.x to forego megastructures.

But if I have a few Vassals then I feel like the Shared Destiny AP is taking the place of the Galactic Wonders AP.

To me they are "win more" options, not "win" options. If I can afford the opportunity cost of building them in the first place, I have for all practical purposes already won the game and they aren't going to make any difference to the ultimate outcome.

Technically I'd agree, but that's also true for Vassals and Federations and Ascensions -- it's possible to win with none of those, and no species traits, and no Civics, and etc. many other handicaps.

But it's also a question of slack vs. planning for me. E.g. Cosmogenisis means absolutely tanking my colony production so I do need either very well-managed savings or some non-colony production sources.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
OR...just let us change Perks later in the game. Maybe restrict the choice to needing to pick seven first and THEN you can change your mind on no more than two. Super expensive and it allows us to pick the crapping Perks early and change them out for good Perks mid to late game. :eek:
 
  • 6
Reactions:
OR...just let us change Perks later in the game. Maybe restrict the choice to needing to pick seven first and THEN you can change your mind on no more than two. Super expensive and it allows us to pick the crapping Perks early and change them out for good Perks mid to late game. :eek:
"Alright, I finished my ascension, I can swap out of it now."

"Alright, I finished terraforming all my planets into Gaia, I can swap out of it now."

"Alright, I've built up my Cosmogenesis fleets, now to swap out of it."

Endless such special cases.
 
  • 9
  • 1Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
"Alright, I finished my ascension, I can swap out of it now."

"Alright, I finished terraforming all my planets into Gaia, I can swap out of it now."

"Alright, I've built up my Cosmogenesis fleets, now to swap out of it."

Endless such special cases.
Except the proposed restriction to only two. Hard to see "endless" in that. PDX could even place a further restriction that only certain Perks could be available. :eek:

But yeah. Perk repicking will never be a choice offered in the game. Player's will just have to continue saving the game BEFORE they choose a Perk and if it doesn't work out how they like reload that save and try again.

I agree with the OP, though, that some Perks NEED to be combined as I spelled out in my own thread on this subject a few months ago. As they are now a fair number of Perks are just never worth picking because of how little they offer. Unless you're deliberately trying to make the game as difficult as possible for yourself. :rolleyes: