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krossbow7

Corporal
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May 13, 2025
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So, I wanted to like these changes. But it doesn’t feel like they managed to actually hit trade having a distinct purpose; it still feels like EC, except with extra steps. DOUBLY so because you still use trade to purchase services and coins!

You could have added an EC cost for deficits on a planet, and it would have done the same thing!
Trade is, at its core, an alternative way to generate EC, CG and unity, and this change to it as a resource does not alter that except to make it BAD at it, as the market is always creeping in inflation, while you no longer convert everything: a previously for example, you’d just straight convert it all to energy and CG, while now you get trade as a resource which you manually trade with the market, a base gouge of 30%/20% extra which then scales nigh infinitely higher if you want to buy any amount of note, quickly turning trade into Zimbabwe dollars late game. I.e, you do what the game automatically did for you before, except now you get a conversion method/rate that makes it unable to perform.


This all circles back to the core question of “why?” Though. What were the devs intending to accomplish with this change; it doesn’t feel like a unique resource in the way that alloys, research or unity does, it just feels, again, like EC with extra steps except WORSE.
you made hyper specialization even more powerful, and the trade upkeep being inconsequential makes it so you don’t even need to care. It adds nothing to the game, it’s not a resource that you want to really accumulate or control, and doesn’t change how empires function except that trade empire’s turned into dogwater. Heck, if anything, trade is less interesting now, since things like merchants and clerks got nixed and thrifty only applies to traders solely; no more using bad habitability worlds as trade worlds, less intricacy and depth, ect.

So, here’s my view: the devs thought about this as a logistics kind of thing, where trades about how well you interlink your empire and counter planets being apart.
You know what the OPPOSITE of that is? Sprawl.
bureaucrats as anti-sprawl mechanics had a stake put in their heart long ago, but there is really no other area to make logistics have a purpose here: the change trade adds NOTHING to the game from how it was before: there is no unique resource you need it for like CG to science/unity or minerals to alloys, and you made in infeasible to use as an EC substitute since the market will inflate nigh infinitely compared to the pure conversion of before. There isn’t even a repercussion to having trade deficits for planets, or ever increasing costs in contrast to ever increasing specialization benefits.





In short, to summarize my giant paragraph:
This change does not make trade unique.
It does not make trade more interesting or add to the game.
It solely makes trade WORSE.
There should be a defined purpose, even beyond balance, as there should be a fun and unique reason for a resource’s existence, or else it might as well be removed. Trade lacks one now.
 
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The unique ability of the unconverted portion of trade (i.e. whatever is left over after trade policy is applied) is being able to buy from the market (also internal logistics, but as you say, the amount of trade you need to use there is limited). If market prices are going to the moon across the board, that means empires are buying a lot more stuff than they are selling. It's not exactly like inflation for a fiat currency, because you can't actually just print trade and keep adding zeroes like it's Zimbabwean dollars. What you're talking about is more like inflation in the Spanish empire, where they had a lot of gold and silver but didn't actually manufacture much themselves (partly because they could just buy everything with their massive pile of coins), so the precious metals became worth a lot less in terms of actual useful goods.

Maybe the problem is that AI empires are poorly-developed, which means a lot of Civilians, which means a lot of trade to buy stuff off the market instead of making goods domestically? In a galaxy full of rational actors, prices would naturally reach an equilibrium as the market incentives change, but the AI doesn't necessarily respond to market incentives.

The other side of the coin is that energy is just a normal resource now, not the market resource, so it may need more internal uses to keep it interesting. There's a general issue here with "upkeep resources": you don't really need to stockpile them, and your ability to produce them grows faster than monthly demand, so they rapidly go from a key bottleneck to something that mostly takes care of itself.
 
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I find it weird that Curators, Artisans etc still want to be paid in energy.

As an apparent non-sequitur (it isn't really, I was checking how marauder clans want to be paid), can we please have a way of seeing which clans have fleets available for hire?
 
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it still feels like EC, except with extra steps.

This is pretty much it.

I think that reworking how trade routes worked was essential to mitigate endgame lag, but they didn't have to reinvent the wheel. Having two different currencies that work for different things doesn't add depth, it just complicates things for the sake of complicating things.

Fortunately, trade conversion numbers are easily moddable.
 
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Played a match as Treasure Hunters -origin.

Once I got my hands on the upgraded Celestial Chart, which spawns Treasure Vault -planetary feature. I could flat out ignore all Trade, it was as if it didn't even exist at that point. Think I ended the game at +16k trade and I didn't even try to expand to other Empire territories, so had I conquered the land, it would just been higher and higher.

So.. I guess it's neat idea that we use Trade to purchase resources from market and boost productivity of our pops.. but at the same time.. after certain point, I didn't feel any sort of impact from it.
 
"Why" - Get rid of trade routes (apparently these were a source of performance problems) without completely removing an entire DLC's worth of content (Megacorps).

It is weird that Trade is currently a "logistical overhead" abstract resource that is also used to buy and sell other resources, while also still being partially converted to energy and/or consumer goods via trade policy.

In the current state of the game, excess trade does two things:
-Lets you make up for deficits (sometimes large ones) in other resources or offload excesses of them while you build up the pops and planets or megastructures to fix the deficits (i.e. use the market).
-Lets you drastically increase per-pop primary resource output via planet specialization (at a rate where, unless the market is completely crashed, this will offer a better return than buying from the market)
Its use for covering planetary deficits and fleets seems too small to matter beyond the very early game (where starbase constructions or trade buildings can cover for it).
 
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Played a match as Treasure Hunters -origin.

Once I got my hands on the upgraded Celestial Chart, which spawns Treasure Vault -planetary feature. I could flat out ignore all Trade, it was as if it didn't even exist at that point. Think I ended the game at +16k trade and I didn't even try to expand to other Empire territories, so had I conquered the land, it would just been higher and higher.

So.. I guess it's neat idea that we use Trade to purchase resources from market and boost productivity of our pops.. but at the same time.. after certain point, I didn't feel any sort of impact from it.
Among the problems new trade has, all trade policies leave you with leftover trade... which is good if you need it for logistics, and trash if you don't because you have the pay the market fee to convert it into anything even mildly useful.

Even if you just convert it to energy, which most of it was before anyway, its still energy you have to pay the market fee on whereas before it came AS energy, a resource you could already use for things even if you likely ended up with a surplus.

Worse still, a lot of ways you end up with quite excessive energy previously had one market fee between them and being useful, and now have two because you have to sell the energy first.
 
I see the roleplay aspect of the current changes but in terms of gameplay I don't think it works that well.

- By giving/forcing trade to gestalt empires, it further diminishes the gameplay differences between them and regular empires

- Consumer Benefits and Marketplace of Ideas trade policies aren't an (early) upgrade, more like a downgrade or sidegrade as you completely lost all energy output by trade and instead are forced to invest in technicans coming from the default 50/50 split. So it further reduces gameplay option by only leaving default trade policy, worker coop and trade federation policy useable. In pre 3.14 they were valid upgrade pathes on its own or on the way to trade federation, now they don't help at all

- Market values don't scale so you are heavily penalized by investing into trade without using Worker Coop or Trade Fed. It simply isn't worth for early/midgame to use the trade overflow as rates really go bad fast.

- As the OP already pointed out, instead of going the extra route via trade value as extra currency, most of the things could have been solved by simply let energy credits do the things, without removing any of the new features.

I am not against the other gameplay changes regarding trade value, like removing pirates (simply QoL), simulate logistics by adding costs to heavily specialiced planets (as above, could have been done through EC), and changing trade value to a regular currency to work with 4.0 changes.
 
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From another thread
The fact that it's not an actual resource, it doesn't do anything, doesn't turn into anything, it's quite literally mana you can use to conjure up other resources in the "market".

It's nothing like the energy credit system we used to have. in fact, I see no reason why energy credits couldn't fulfil all of the mechanics of the current "trade resource" they invented.

I feel like they tried to do both logistics & resources and that ruined both aspects.

Energy credits should remain as energy credits and if they really wanted to make logistics, make a logistic resource which increases trade capacity between planets to transfer goods between them, similar to HoI4 supllies instead.

Right now this abstract mana can't be called money or credits, because it's logistics as well, but we can't even call it logistics because it's acting like a reduntant energy credit system too. And it conjures actual resources from the "market".
 
This is undoubtedly bad design that's probably rooted in insufficient testing, but going into 00_policies.txt and modding it so trade is split 50/50 with energy makes it a hell lot less bad, and it's specially egregious when playing with machines. I encourage you guys to look into it, just Ctrl+F for "set_trade_conversions" and experiment.
 
I was originally going to write the topic as imploring paradox to add an adjustable slider for trade conversion (that could be accessed at all times, and would go from 10% to 90%) for more control, but was struck by the question of “why?”
Specifically, it’s solving a problem that doesn’t need to exist; essentially just adjusting trade to function like it did prior, without a reason for it to function like it does currently; the only real thing that needed to be altered for 4.0’s mechanics was removing trade routes, which wasn’t an intrinsic part of how it functioned: they could easily have left trade in its prior state and removed routes without issue.


I just think paradox needs to have a set purpose in mind for trade, as they seem to have came up with a concept and then floundered and essentially just made it work (badly) like it used to because they had come too far (sunk cost fallacy) to admit it was a mistake and backtrack by admitting their concept (trade as logistics) didn’t pan out.
 
As a counterpoint, I don't particularly mind the way Trade works now, as an extrapolation of an empires ability to move resources internally and procure resources externally.

I do agree that there are issues with the Market and scaling costs right now, but I think that might also tied into how bad the AI is at automating planet development and growth at the moment and is leaning on the market to support their planets (has anyone since 4.0 conquered an AI world and not looked at it and thought "WTF were they even trying to use this planet for?").

I have more of a problem with how Trade has left Energy in a weird lurch as we are used to thinking about it as "Energy Credits" and as the currency of exchange and not as a resource. Also, as mentioned by others, all the weird leftover places where some things are paid for with Energy still that should probably be paid for now as Trade. It just makes the whole system feel a bit abrasive to have relics of the previous currency system alongside the new Trade system.

I'd be fine, personally, if Trade was left as it currently is in 4.0 but Energy needs an overhaul and needs to be more useful as a resource or at least more uses for it distinct from it being a faux-currency system. Probably part of a more general review of upkeep and costs now that energy isn't the currency of the market.

I kind of want Energy tied into upkeep based upon Housing. Food to maintain population, Minerals to grow structures, Energy to maintain systems and population density. Not jobs perse, but more the expense of housing density and urbanized population. So a new colony would have a low energy upkeep - basic systems in place to do simple jobs - but once you have houses stacked on top of houses and need to maintain a service and transportation infrastructure you'd have scaling energy upkeep with housing density.

Food to feed organic pops (and replace minerals for meatship space industry)
Minerals to fuel construction (buildings, manufactured goods, space industry, and feed lithoid pops)
Energy to power development, drive urban growth, and maintain systems (and feed robot pops)
Trade to represent the ability to transport and procure the above three

Actually, looking at that I also want Food to instead be Organics and be both food and bio fuel and resources.

Also, I kinda want each of the types of scientists to have maintenance costs related to what they output (Physics - Energy, Society - Organics, Engineering - Minerals) versus them all being maintained with the same resource (I do wonder what all the Society researchers do in some of my empires that maintain them with Minerals or CGs, I picture labs full of giant LEGO models of government buildings...).

I am probably in the minority but, for me at least, Trade is the 4.0 system I am most comfortable with but it makes the rest of the economy look a bit weird now.
 
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I am probably in the minority but, for me at least, Trade is the 4.0 system I am most comfortable with but it makes the rest of the economy look a bit weird now.
I don't actually mind the trade system. I think it is fundamentally a better concept than using 'energy' to pay for stuff. If I was new to Stellaris and saw the trade system, I'd be a bit perplexed at people wanting to throw out trade and pay for stuff in energy. Of course, it is Energy Credits.

For me, the issue is everything is so out-of-whack balance wise. Energy has become like food: It has a few purposes, but mainly you can get away with a couple of generator worlds and not have to worry about it again (I really don't see the need to build a Dyson Sphere ever again, and they now come far too late anyway). The big issue for me is "sensitivity" - I have a slight positive net income production, something small happens (federation partner goes to war) and I find I have a significant negative. It seems to be much more sensitive than food, minerals, alloys etc. Maybe I need to relearn how to manage it.

Point is: I think it has potential, but needs balancing.
 
I don't actually mind the trade system. I think it is fundamentally a better concept than using 'energy' to pay for stuff. If I was new to Stellaris and saw the trade system, I'd be a bit perplexed at people wanting to throw out trade and pay for stuff in energy. Of course, it is Energy Credits.

For me, the issue is everything is so out-of-whack balance wise. Energy has become like food: It has a few purposes, but mainly you can get away with a couple of generator worlds and not have to worry about it again (I really don't see the need to build a Dyson Sphere ever again, and they now come far too late anyway). The big issue for me is "sensitivity" - I have a slight positive net income production, something small happens (federation partner goes to war) and I find I have a significant negative. It seems to be much more sensitive than food, minerals, alloys etc. Maybe I need to relearn how to manage it.

Point is: I think it has potential, but needs balancing.
Pop growth and pop efficiency boosts are so effective that I think spaceborne structures have returned to "nearly irrelevant" outside of the early game. Anyone who played before the research nerfs a while back (removed research speed techs + significantly reduced scientist output) would recognize this state of the game. Not going to lie, it doesn't feel good to get kilostructures and go "meh, i really don't care about the extra +150/month alloys or +200/month energy" because my pops can already churn much more than that.
 
The thing about the trade rework that bothers me is the removal of trade routes.

Trade as the market resource makes sense especially when paired with logistics costs for fleets and planetary deficits. Tying that to the trade network would have actually made things a bit deeper, as those planetary deficits especially need ships to actually bring the resources in.

I was OK with it when announced because of the promised performance improvement, but given that 4.0 has worse performance than 3.14 that seems like a poor justification now.
 
My "fix" to trade would be to blend the old and new systems. Like the old system, trade would need to be collected by Starbases. However, instead of routing it to the capital, Starbases would simply collect the Trade from any planet in range, and net out surpluses/deficits within their trade zone. Effectively, Starbases would act as logistics hubs, and the Trade upkeep would apply to deficits that need to be cured from outside the Starbase area - this would allow colonies in the same system to specialize as long as there is sufficient production within the same region. Then, piracy could appear randomly in any system within the zone, based on the amount of Trade upkeep drawn by that Starbase.

Net effect: most of the good, intuitive feeling of the old system without the performance cost in calculating routes, daily updates to system piracy, etc.
 
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The unique ability of the unconverted portion of trade (i.e. whatever is left over after trade policy is applied) is being able to buy from the market (also internal logistics, but as you say, the amount of trade you need to use there is limited). If market prices are going to the moon across the board, that means empires are buying a lot more stuff than they are selling. It's not exactly like inflation for a fiat currency, because you can't actually just print trade and keep adding zeroes like it's Zimbabwean dollars. What you're talking about is more like inflation in the Spanish empire, where they had a lot of gold and silver but didn't actually manufacture much themselves (partly because they could just buy everything with their massive pile of coins), so the precious metals became worth a lot less in terms of actual useful goods.

Maybe the problem is that AI empires are poorly-developed, which means a lot of Civilians, which means a lot of trade to buy stuff off the market instead of making goods domestically? In a galaxy full of rational actors, prices would naturally reach an equilibrium as the market incentives change, but the AI doesn't necessarily respond to market incentives.

The other side of the coin is that energy is just a normal resource now, not the market resource, so it may need more internal uses to keep it interesting. There's a general issue here with "upkeep resources": you don't really need to stockpile them, and your ability to produce them grows faster than monthly demand, so they rapidly go from a key bottleneck to something that mostly takes care of itself.
I actually think this angle is closer to what I think.

I understand what trade is and what it does. Post split, I find that it's actually Energy that's more lost it's role, IMO. Maybe that's going to be an economic challenge going forward: finding a use for Energy to utilize it instead of wasting it.
 
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