Tribes...

[richvh]

Tribes have a whole different building tree, a different mechanic for calling up "vassal" troops (instead of calling up however many troops their opinion allows whenever you want, you "call allied troops" and they get to choose if they send how many, if any), different councilor job actions, and when you build up the holdings enough you can choose to go republic or feudal... but I haven't played as them either, that's just my understanding from reading stuff.

 

[DarkReborn]

Let's reignite this thread and start putting together a list of titles to set as having tribal holdings:
Scandinavia: I think the Ragnarokic d_halogaland is a shoe-in. Iceland and Greenland should probably be tribal. Republics (d_bergen, d_gotland) are out. The rest? Should all be tribal? All but solar/christian variants?
Ireland: all but the republic in d_ulaid? Only the Druidics on the west coast, or those plus Forn Sidrics, excepting d_ulaid?
Africa: everything Sahara and south, except Nile valley and the Phoenician colony in whereveritis, plus some other colonies on the east coast?
India: tribal around the Hindu Kush and Himalayas, Tarim Basin, Tibetan plateau? Or should Tarim Basin be civilized, reflecting its importance as a trade center?
Central Asia: tribal north and east of the Amu Darya and Syr Darya valleys?

Here go my comments on those:

Scandinavia: All tribal except the Christian or pseudo-Christian realms. Those are; Jylland, Raumariki, Adger and Hordaland due to it's republic vassal. All of Vinland should be tribal, specially the skraelings (AKA the Inuit).

Ireland: I'd go with full tribal here, since I'm not really sure on the Hibernicists.

Africa: Subsaharian West and East all Tribal, except Kambra (Punics), Rhapta and Mombasa ( republics), Zanzibar, the Tseng Duchy (foreign colonies) and Madagascar (Also a foreign colony, though this one is up for debate when César's map comes). Maybe one of the native East African realms should be feudal as well (the ones with reformed religions, like Zimbabwe).

India: The Tarim Basin should absolutely be civilized. Don't know about the Hilamayas or the Hindu Kush and even less about Tibet (though considering it's an empire... maybe it should be feudal).

Central Asia: I think it's safe to say that most of the Northern Steppe, the various Altaic realms should be tribal.

Eventually we will need to discuss the elephant(s) in the room as well though...

Tribes have a whole different building tree, a different mechanic for calling up "vassal" troops (instead of calling up however many troops their opinion allows whenever you want, you "call allied troops" and they get to choose if they send how many, if any), different councilor job actions, and when you build up the holdings enough you can choose to go republic or feudal... but I haven't played as them either, that's just my understanding from reading stuff.

It's more or less this, I find them entertaining to play... a breath of fresh air if anything else, like the Merchant Republics were back when The Republic was released.

 

[richvh]

Scandinavia: All tribal except the Christian or pseudo-Christian realms. Those are; Jylland, Raumariki, Adger and Hordaland due to it's republic vassal.

What about Gotland?

For that matter, what about the Caucasus and the Eastern Ukrainian steppe?

 

[DarkReborn]

What about Gotland?

For that matter, what about the Caucasus and the Eastern Ukrainian steppe?

Isn't the Gotland republic gone with the map expansion?

 

[richvh]

I guess it is.

 

[Vanhal]

I'd like some explanation on how the tribes work or what do they intend to represent exactly. Are they gonna be a representation of tribal confederations, like the Ghassanids, the Kara Kithan or the Huns? Or do they serve to represent something else too? I'm a bit lost, I haven't played the last patch at all.

Vanilla tribals are generalisation for all that wasn't feudal when Charlemagne starts, and one that shallows everything to be that "other" tech group, i.e. barbarians. It feels kinda weird and unapropriate to slap that on half the map in mod taking point in emphasis of diversity. Especially that whole concept failed imo, they are just tedious and not fun to play. Could be worth trying after major tweaks though, for example multiple tribal holdings instead of one, various kinds of "tribal" modifiers for different cultures and more realistic feudalism/republic conversion rules.

 

[DarkReborn]

Vanilla tribals are generalisation for all that wasn't feudal when Charlemagne starts, and one that shallows everything to be that "other" tech group, i.e. barbarians. It feels kinda weird and unapropriate to slap that on half the map in mod taking point in emphasis of diversity. Especially that whole concept failed imo, they are just tedious and not fun to play. Could be worth trying after major tweaks though, for example multiple tribal holdings instead of one, various kinds of "tribal" modifiers for different cultures and more realistic feudalism/republic conversion rules.

It's still a better option than having half of the map as feudal realms because reasons... I agree with you in that it's not the best system to represent a "tribal" realm ( whatever those really were IRL; Tribal confederations like the ones César mentions, Clan-based politics like the ones that dominated Ireland or Scotland well into the 1500s IIRC, or else ), but it's better than having them under a 14th century-esque feudal system.

Like everything else that we have kept from vanilla, tribals will be overhauled in LI, there's no doubt of that. But the argument that the mechanic should not be added just because it's core principles are not "fun" is not enough to me.

 

[Vanhal]

You may be right about LI, but in vanilla tribals are kick in the balls for everyone that want to play them, basically forcing them to be the underdog like natives in EU. And however fun that may be, it instantly ends when some big blob wants to conquer you (true that it happens much less often that in EU but still). In LI that would not be so harsh, because LI have no starting blobs, but that mechanic would still need serious rework. And that is probably much work and hassle, it is one of the things that must be done completely or not at all.
First thing that need to be removed is that stupid requirement of not being unreformed pagan to convert to feudal/republic. While that have some sense in vanilla, it is meaningless in LI. Another one is single holding mechanic. but all that have been already discussed in various places in the main forum.
Oh, and reminding Irish and Scottish clan politics in 1500 is kinda silly in LI. We still have druids around! Who said that they can't be feudal druids

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

You may be right about LI, but in vanilla tribals are kick in the balls for everyone that want to play them, basically forcing them to be the underdog like natives in EU. And however fun that may be, it instantly ends when some big blob wants to conquer you (true that it happens much less often that in EU but still). In LI that would not be so harsh, because LI have no starting blobs, but that mechanic would still need serious rework. And that is probably much work and hassle, it is one of the things that must be done completely or not at all.
First thing that need to be removed is that stupid requirement of not being unreformed pagan to convert to feudal/republic. While that have some sense in vanilla, it is meaningless in LI. Another one is single holding mechanic. but all that have been already discussed in various places in the main forum.
Oh, and reminding Irish and Scottish clan politics in 1500 is kinda silly in LI. We still have druids around! Who said that they can't be feudal druids

You definitely need to come over to my party, the No Tribals Party, also known as the Penguin Party.

 

[Numahr]

Balance can be tweaked. But the tribal mechanics overall represents an improvement to what politics of power must be in many areas of our map. I think we can all agree that the question is to properly implement it.

Once I am done with my current work on Casus Belli, I'd like to start working seriously on this... Maybe starting with one of these nice maps I like to draw, I could at least make a suggestion for tribal realms in Persia / Central Asia to begin with.

 

[DarkReborn]

You may be right about LI, but in vanilla tribals are kick in the balls for everyone that want to play them, basically forcing them to be the underdog like natives in EU. And however fun that may be, it instantly ends when some big blob wants to conquer you (true that it happens much less often that in EU but still). In LI that would not be so harsh, because LI have no starting blobs, but that mechanic would still need serious rework. And that is probably much work and hassle, it is one of the things that must be done completely or not at all.

Aaah... but there's some of us who enjoy playing an underdog. And the overhaul will be done completely, just don't hope to have it done in one stroke. As Numahr said, it definately is not going to be out.

First thing that need to be removed is that stupid requirement of not being unreformed pagan to convert to feudal/republic. While that have some sense in vanilla, it is meaningless in LI. Another one is single holding mechanic. but all that have been already discussed in various places in the main forum.

You should forward these to Riknap, or rather, he should read them from this thread.

But, as Numahr's SELIN manual, and the in-game tooltip for reform religion say, reforming is not always the obvious choice in LI, because there can be advantages in the military momentum unreformeds have. I think it should be the same with staying as as tribe, with some ( or more than some) gameplay tweaks, it doesn't has to be exactly bad.

Oh, and reminding Irish and Scottish clan politics in 1500 is kinda silly in LI. We still have druids around! Who said that they can't be feudal druids

For me it's a matter of variety... it's enough that every country still feels like playing a Catholic clone ( despite arguably my best efforts ), but picking random wayside realm in East Africa or the Steppes and finding that they have in place a feudal system from 14th century England... makes it even worse for me. As I said before, it's not the best solution, but at least, it's a solution.

I know some people see adding tribals whatever the cost as an unreasonable and stubborn decision (and it probably is, I won't deny I'm often both these things), despite any arguments I make for it, but so I see the "No Tribals, absolutely anywhere" one.

You definitely need to come over to my party, the No Tribals Party, also known as the Penguin Party.

It's one of those weird parties like the New Zealander one that is led by a wizard?

 

[richvh]

We've started to define what areas get tribal holdings, but need to seriously think about what the tribal building chains should look like. While they should have similar depth, I feel that just making them a cut and paste of the LI castle chain with gold_cost changed to prestige_cost would be a mistake, and that more diversity between cultures should be introduced, with not only the existing cultural levies, but basic military buildings having cultural variants, so a Persian levy looks less like an English levy, and Altaic tribal armies don't look like Norwegian tribal armies.

 

[riknap]

You should forward these to Riknap, or rather, he should read them from this thread.

technically, it's only a decision restriction that can be cut-out easily anyway. and I do agree that it doesn't make sense in LI anyway (not to mention we'll need to partially rewrite that decision's potential/trigger scope anyway since all our religions are... quite different

But, as Numahr's SELIN manual, and the in-game tooltip for reform religion say, reforming is not always the obvious choice in LI, because there can be advantages in the military momentum unreformeds have. I think it should be the same with staying as as tribe, with some ( or more than some) gameplay tweaks, it doesn't has to be exactly bad.

this. the tribal mechanics can actually be quite beneficial if adopted properly. It's just a question of balancing (and how exactly we implement them)

We've started to define what areas get tribal holdings, but need to seriously think about what the tribal building chains should look like. While they should have similar depth, I feel that just making them a cut and paste of the LI castle chain with gold_cost changed to prestige_cost would be a mistake, and that more diversity between cultures should be introduced, with not only the existing cultural levies, but basic military buildings having cultural variants, so a Persian levy looks less like an English levy, and Altaic tribal armies don't look like Norwegian tribal armies.

I'd personally approach it the same way I did the republic-building chain: ie. creating entirely new buildings that fit the mould.
but yeah, most of the problem with tribals really is how to get merge cultural military buildings with tribal mechanics. While one way to get around it is to simply make a "tribal version" of the cultural buildings (and allow these buildings to directly convert to an appropriate "standard" cultural building), that pretty much removes the distinction of tribals from feudals in terms of army composition (in vanilla, tribals were primarily LI with some AR and LC only, which meant they had the numbers but not the troop quality of feudals. I'm not sure how to do that in Lux, where cultural-compositions could just as easily be LI-dominant as HI-dominant)

 

[richvh]

See, I'd like to see Scandinavian tribals (or Himalaya or African jungle tribals) being LI, AR, with some HI and LC mixed in, with the mix changing to more HI and less levies in general when they go feudal with HC added in at higher building levels, and Altaic (and other steppe and Sahel) tribals being LC, HA and some HC mixed in, going to HC and infantry when they go feudal (settled). It would be a matter of making cultural versions of most of the basic military buildings, though, instead of having just a few major cultural buildings.

 

[Vanhal]

See? Already some good ideas. You guys are good, Shaytana should be proud.