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Oct 22, 2001
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I have recently encountered two situations that both concern how to avoid bad events and where I would like to share my views with you.


1. TO LET THE GAME GO ON

First we have a comparatively minor thing. One of the real veterans of EU MP recently wrote that towards the end of a session he got a bad event. He then decided to let the game roll on with him doing nothing (it was not much playing time left of the session). The event blocks him from the computer, except for clicking away messages, and thus he cannot do anything until the session ends (or he decides to change his mind and do click the event away). Our vet simply calculated he would gain more money from doing nothing than from first accepting the bad event and then doing some smart things, e.g. sending out merchants. Well do you find this behaviour acceptable?

My own is view that this behaviour does not harm any other player in a direct meaning. On the contrary, directly it only benefits them as you cannot compete with them on the markets available, such as the trading market or the colonising market. Indirectly it does of course harm the other players since the competitive strength of the nation doing this reasonably will increase but this is IMO of much less importance. Neither can it be checked by the GM. All of this means that in my eyes it is perfectly acceptable and in fact, I do it myself now and then.


2. TO VOLUNTARILY CTD

When I was about to sub in another game I got some instructions where the perm informed me that I would get a bad event some time into the game and that some other people had “told” him to make a false CTD and stay away from the game a year or so because the event could only fire a certain year – if the nation in question was crashed during all this year then the event would never fire. He himself considered it as very gamey and said that he would not do it but he left it open for me to do how I wanted.

Well, this behaviour is not easy to check for a GM. So far it is similar to the previous one. But it does have a direct influence on the fellow gamers. A rehost is necessary. And indirectly it is of course beneficial for the player.

But it can of course not be allowed. Because had it been allowed we would have rehosts every 10 minutes and it is obvious for anyone with an intelligence above that of a chimpanzee that we do not want this. I need no specific rule to understand that this is an unwritten rule. I do not even need to enter the moral dimension and ask if it is so bad from a moral point of view that it is forbidden (which of course it is). It is enough to conclude that if everyone did it then the joy of gaming would disappear because of all the rehosts and thus it is forbidden just because of this.

For me breaking a rule while knowing you break it, is the definition of cheating. This means these evil CTDers are in my eyes cheaters.

I asked the perm who these people were, they who recommended him to CTD, but he withheld their names. I am still puzzled as to why the perm left this open to me, why he even mentioned the possibility.


GAMEY PLAY

BTW, I always play “gamey”, i.e. I play this game as a game, not as a kind of nice evening socialisation, and games you play to win. But I always try to follow the rules, even when they are stupid and for example say “gamey things are not allowed”. But that kind of generalised rule is almost extinct now.


WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT

So what can we do to stop voluntary CTDs?

1. Well historical events, in contrast to random events (like political crisis etc) often occur on a fix point in history or during some narrow interval of years. I believe that our GMs should to a greater extent than before start checking the correlation between CTDs and dates for bad events. The first thing we should do is to compile a register of bad events and sticky on the MP page.

2. In the save there is a list of events that have fired. If someone does either of the things mentioned above, does the list get updated? If not that is a way to check whether someone avoided a bad event or not.

3. Then we can dream about getting some feature in EU III MP that more automatically checks this. We could make a post about it in the EUII thread.

Coming to think of it. Perhaps we could put together a list of methods to stop all kinds of cheats and then let FAL post it as a request in the EU III thread. He is not only our beloved moderator but as well a beta tester of EU III.
 
It is indeed very difficult to find and punish this cheat, as ctd can happen to anyone, and random events are not written to the log.

Avoiding national events can be detected, thou it would take some work from the GM to detect it, and playing while keeping an eye on this might be a bit hard.

If the events would be written into the log when they happen, and we didn't have to wait for the player to click the event (in non multichoice events atleast), we could eliminate cheating like this. That's most random events and several historical events too.
 
Daniel A said:
One of the real veterans of EU MP recently wrote that towards the end of a session he got a bad event. He then decided to let the game roll on with him doing nothing (it was not much playing time left of the session). The event blocks him from the computer, except for clicking away messages, and thus he cannot do anything until the session ends (or he decides to change his mind and do click the event away). Our vet simply calculated he would gain more money from doing nothing than from first accepting the bad event and then doing some smart things, e.g. sending out merchants. Well do you find this behaviour acceptable?
:D I do. In fact I did so in a game I subbed a couple of weeks ago. Well, actually twice that game. One was a national event which I waited for till the start of the new year to avoid loans and the other one was 6 months prior to the end of a session. The event was unhappiness of the peasantry :D .
Daniel A said:
When I was about to sub in another game I got some instructions where the perm informed me that I would get a bad event some time into the game and that some other people had “told” him to make a false CTD and stay away from the game a year or so because the event could only fire a certain year – if the nation in question was crashed during all this year then the event would never fire. He himself considered it as very gamey and said that he would not do it but he left it open for me to do how I wanted.
Bah, anybody who does this should go back to SP. Of course, if this happened, the GM should take appropriate actions. The same when a player "accidentally crashes or has to go" just when he's about to get DoWed or even decides to AI his nation to avoid being beaten by other players. I don't have anything good to say about those people.
Daniel A said:
BTW, I always play “gamey”, i.e. I play this game as a game, not as a kind of nice evening socialisation, and games you play to win. But I always try to follow the rules, even when they are stupid and for example say “gamey things are not allowed”. But that kind of generalised rule is almost extinct now.?
Same here. I play for fun, do my best to expand my nation (economically, military, technologically, diplomatically, etc...) and follow the rules.
Daniel A said:
WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT
Fire historical events avoided by the player + a punishment. Random events can't be checked (and I do not feel the need to pause the game at 31st of december and forcing everybody to say "in" thus forcing to click on a possible event on the screen).

With CTD or getting nation to be AI to avoid being clubbered, the nation should be declared off limits to some extent (like losing some provs) by the GM in that same session is subs can't be find.
Daniel A said:
Coming to think of it. Perhaps we could put together a list of methods to stop all kinds of cheats and then let FAL post it as a request in the EU III thread. He is not only our beloved moderator but as well a beta tester of EU III.
What's the use of this? Besides there is a difference between cheating and gamey behaviour. I consider using pirates, staying at war to loot, DoWing a nation for maps, checking events files, etc... all examples of cheating. But on the other hand, 99.99% of all gamers find it totally normal. Besides, you can't stop people to try and find a way to bend the rules. Don't want to turn the game into something "state controlled." Maybe if people applied the term "Fair Play" more often on themselves.

But then again everybody has their own views on fair play :D .
 
I waited a whole year to get money to pay for loan I got in Feb and already wasted all census.
But I was Austria so I did not lose much on waiting, it is just frustrating that one can not to do anything.
 
I'm surprised, in a positive way, that you guys are still trying to solve this eternal issue, "gamey behavior, solution?" discussion.

The only solution that i can imagine will work, find players that you can trust.
Any other way will only mean alot of extra work for the GM, that have to do stuff that he really shouldnt in a game point of view. As it certainly will drag the attention in many cases from the game itself to discussions that has nothing to do with MP.

BTW, I always play “gamey”, i.e. I play this game as a game, not as a kind of nice evening socialisation, and games you play to win. But I always try to follow the rules, even when they are stupid and for example say “gamey things are not allowed”. But that kind of generalised rule is almost extinct now.
Same old Daniel :)
Although, your own definition of "winning" this game might not be the same as anyone elses definition. As everything else around the issue of player behavior in this game. It's a complex game that players play differently.
Thus you come to situations like your example you mentioned in this thread, it's not solveable i'm afriad.

Find people you can trust, preferably people that play the game more or less like you do. Only way :)
 
What about checking the stats to see if anybody has 6 traders at session end. Make an announcment that the session is ending and anybody with 6 traders is obviously avoiding an unhappiness event. I know alot of people don't trade early so that's why you announce it. I doubt people would choose auto-merchant to circumvent.
 
I'm aghast to believe that anyone would consider deliberately CTDing :wacko:

Bad events - whether random or fixed - the right thing to do is just to roll with them - otherwise, if you win the game, it's because you exploited - even openly cheated. It's not merely using a hole in the game mechanics to get a result contrary to design, its actually using what is effectively a bug to get around an important balancing design component (events).

Obviously both these things aren't obviously detectable, but I like to think that the people I play with view playing fair as equally important to winning... and even if some of them don't, well I still do.
 
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ArmOrAttAk said:
What about checking the stats to see if anybody has 6 traders at session end. Make an announcment that the session is ending and anybody with 6 traders is obviously avoiding an unhappiness event. I know alot of people don't trade early so that's why you announce it. I doubt people would choose auto-merchant to circumvent.

Each altering of stats is logged with IP and so on.

But as i though in stats thread, i`ve decided after 1,5 years of doubts or more that this community deserves more efforts to make login system with authentification and more order.
 
ArmOrAttAk said:
What about checking the stats to see if anybody has 6 traders at session end. Make an announcment that the session is ending and anybody with 6 traders is obviously avoiding an unhappiness event. I know alot of people don't trade early so that's why you announce it. I doubt people would choose auto-merchant to circumvent.


I generally try to have a few traders (say, 6) when a session starts, that means saving them the session before.
the AI will generally be sending merchants at the start of a session, so you better have some traders standing ready to fix things :)

In other word; simple in theory, but not a workable solution, imo, as you also cut out viable and fair tactics.

historical events avoided is fairly easy to check (compare the events history log (ie. only event numbers) with the "text" history log; any event appearing in the latter but not in the former was avoided in some way.) ...though I agree that it shouldn't be necessary to burden a GM with this.
 
ForzaA said:
historical events avoided is fairly easy to check (compare the events history log (ie. only event numbers) with the "text" history log; any event appearing in the latter but not in the former was avoided in some way.) ...though I agree that it shouldn't be necessary to burden a GM with this.

Could you pls be a little mre precise, what are those two different log texts.
 
Daniel A said:
Could you pls be a little mre precise, what are those two different log texts.

Well, you have two entries in the savegame that tell you which events have fired during the game.

First you got the history log text, the text between 'history = {' and '}' (all lines start with name = ')
For example:
Code:
history = { 
        name = "March 1, 1521 : Hungary went with Elect Johan Zapolya of Siebenbürgen in The Death of King Lajos of Hungary. "
}

When an even has fired, it's event number ID is saved in the event history in the save (a row of numbers between the second instance of 'history = {' and '}'.

For example:

Code:
history = { 3265 3904 3905 3001 6950 3801 3851 3873 10000 3885 3750 }

When an event fires, the number of the event is saved in the row with event numbers. When an event option is selected, the event option is written down as a textual description in the history file.
So, if you are determined, you can look up the event ID's that were supposed to hit a country during the session by looking in the event file for that country, and then check the textual history log if the player has selected an option for that event, or avoided it in some way.
 
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Daniel A said:
How nice FAL! Let's have a look at some disastrous events in our campaign, do NOT delete the game log for heaven's sake :eek:

I'm sure he has a savegame with the logs still in...

..but distributing the host file WITH the hosts messages in has it's own "ethical drawbacks/temptations"

(and, in fact, he MAY have set his options so that the events aren't saved in the first place ("do not display" for events of other players is an option, and then they won't be saved)

..you can also use your playersaves to check, btw ;) (although, given that these are not *always* accurate, you can ask the host(/gm) to verify afterwards )
 
ForzaA said:
..you can also use your playersaves to check, btw ;) (although, given that these are not *always* accurate, you can ask the host(/gm) to verify afterwards )

Yep that is best.

Though I do have the save with the log still here Daniel, so if you want to check it, you can receive it :)
 
It is still better then a 7v2 attack Balinus... THAT is plain boring.
 
Daniel,

Both practices are unethical. The only exception, I would say, is waiting until the census to fire an event in order to avoid loans, and then only because of the silly way loans work in the game engine.

And the simple way to prevent the first (at least to the extent of letting the event go completely unfired), if you want to take the time, is have everybody chime in to a roll call toward the end of the game. You can't chat with an event window open either.