Undead desperately need buffs

[Efyian]

I mean MP game 1vs1. It is usually enough about 30 turns to surrender.

Really depends on the map then
For example, playing great land flat world, I've had games end by turn 25 (I forced a raze of 1 enemy settle and took another).
And then I've had games that went on for 65 turns or so before a surrender occurred.

And then on Saturday, we were playing a game that only reached turn 19, but we didn't even spot each other until turn 16-18 (and still haven't scouted the settles of the other player). The middle of the map was FULL of hills/mountains/swamps, and the main path that had a GFE and some other lair guardians.

It was clear that it would turn into a long 70 turn or so game, and my opponent decided he's rather stop since he did a UD rush strat, while I was econing up and had halberds out already.

 

[Efyian]

I mean MP game 1vs1. It is usually enough about 30 turns to surrender.

Really depends on the map then
For example, playing great land flat world, I've had games end by turn 25 (I forced a raze of 1 enemy settle and took another).
And then I've had games that went on for 65 turns or so before a surrender occurred.

And then on Saturday, we were playing a game that only reached turn 19, but we didn't even spot each other until turn 16-18 (and still haven't scouted the settles of the other player). The middle of the map was FULL of hills/mountains/swamps, and the main path that had a GFE and some other lair guardians.

It was clear that it would turn into a long 70 turn or so game, and my opponent decided he's rather stop since he did a UD rush strat, while I was econing up and had halberds out already.


Now of course, if you play cylindrical world, which puts capitals anywhere roughly 10-18 tiles away, then you have a completely different game where UD's quick food tanking (if you settle minotaurs, donkeys, or halberds) will generally win games quickly. That and bat quick grabbing all the lairs (especially water ones) to support the early training of advanced units.

 

[unmerged(492719)]

I think Mardagg and Efyian have managed to break down for me why my own strategy with UD involves ignoring food, I've just not gone into such deep analysis of the various strengths/weaknesses.

One thing I notice is that I hardly ever bring undead archers to offensive engagements... they are too weak and slow to be much use as a major invasion force... but they are absolutely ideal defensive units in own territory, cheap and resistant to missile and death magic... I usually keep such archers in all my cities, and whenever something happens (ogre lairs/dremer attacks), it's the archers that are first on the scene and clean up the problems (with a spell or two when needed), leaving my offensive units to focus on their goal.

I do usually leave some other units behind for defense though admittedly... often bats (no effective maintenance) and zombies (low maintenance), that can sit around, gain xp, and be useful in a pinch

Food based mercs I do enjoy using, but I still focus more on undead temple units usually...

I feel like bats (In combat) are mostly used to 'take up space' in an engagement. Since melee's cannot target them, you can often just put them in the way of things. A few bats can hard counter much stronger melee units by simply zoning them from a fight. And if the enemy shoots them down, that's damage they aren't dealingt to units that have upkeep and levels.

Also, I feel like the ability to have level 4- cities spam bat forts is being understated. No one else can build towers before getting level 5, and the Undead not only can, but their towers MAKE them MONEY, and unlock tax offices. Sure, they aren't range 3 elemental, or 12 damage, but they still share damage with units on them.

 

[Efyian]

bats counter things like ogre lair spawn.
Since they're flying, they can't be attacked by said ogres. So if you put 1 on a city... it's safe.

They're great in taking up spots vs pure melee, yes. However, since most players will train heavy archers, they're a bit of a waste vs players.

Interesting thing about the bat fort Zechno.
Let's say you're training a vampire. If it's destroyed, the vampire training is cancelled (the vampire mansion is disabled), and you lose the 200 gold.

I found that out the hard way in a pvp match.

 

[cryptc]

bats counter things like ogre lair spawn.
Since they're flying, they can't be attacked by said ogres. So if you put 1 on a city... it's safe.

They're great in taking up spots vs pure melee, yes. However, since most players will train heavy archers, they're a bit of a waste vs players.

Interesting thing about the bat fort Zechno.
Let's say you're training a vampire. If it's destroyed, the vampire training is cancelled (the vampire mansion is disabled), and you lose the 200 gold.

I found that out the hard way in a pvp match.

I thought bats could still get damaged normally if attacked inside a city, and forced out and city taken... if I'm wrong though this is a great strategy... I usually use ghosts for this tactic in cities that will get melee attacked heavily

 

[Efyian]

actually... I think they can be attacked, but for some reason, the AI is not configured to recognize it. **shrugs**