Understanding unit cards (Xweapon counts vs HE)

[bdictkam]

1.Does anyone definitively know how when on the unit card how the X amount of weapons affects HE?
EX. Panther D and BEFPanther , one has 3x mgs and 7HE and the other has 2x mgs and ALSO 7HE

So does each weapon do an individual 7HE?

2. How does rate of fire affect the HE values?
EX. is the HE value the ROF*hidden damage = HE?
or is it ROF*HE = damage and supression

3. If the first question is true meaning that each individual weapon has the HE, meaning 7Kar98's = 7*2 does that mean when you only have 3 members left in a squad and all you have is Kar ammo left does it only shoot 3*2?? Meaning that weaker squads do less damage effectively?

4.Why would anyone ever take the 14X ju88 over the 2X500kg they both do the same damage type except one gets less damage reduction because 2 big hits vs armour is better then 14 small hits, but looking at ingame file hidden stats they both do full damage vs things like AT guns

 

[Protosszocker]

He isnt a real Value, its just a show of of all the DMg potential of the weapons added up. I try to find the real stats and explanation for you, forgot where I got them and i am bad in explaining.

for 3. I am pretty sure it is that all weapons work till the end and that the he is the sum of all weapons shown. A 1 man FSJ squad still can use both mg42s all 7 kars and their panz. Faust. Dont Ask me what kind of terminator the guy is.

 

[vonLuck]

A 1 man FSJ squad still can use both mg42s all 7 kars and their panz. Faust. Dont Ask me what kind of terminator the guy is.

RIP Carnik Con

von Luck

 

[bdictkam]

He isnt a real Value, its just a show of of all the DMg potential of the weapons added up. I try to find the real stats and explanation for you, forgot where I got them and i am bad in explaining.

for 3. I am pretty sure it is that all weapons work till the end and that the he is the sum of all weapons shown. A 1 man FSJ squad still can use both mg42s all 7 kars and their panz. Faust. Dont Ask me what kind of terminator the guy is.

Ok I hear what you are saying HE is an estimate by Eugene... however... still doesnt explain why some tanks with 2X of the same MG have the exact same HE value as tanks with the same MG but 3X....

another example would be P35R have 1 MG 7HE, yet a pz3h has 2 mg's same caliber, yet still same 7 HE.... ?????
I am assuming that EACH gun has 7HE since its the only thing that makes sense....

therefore : 7X kar98's isnt just 1 or 2 HE, its 2HEX7

 

[DuroSVK]

No, the HE value in card is for all 7 rifles, or 2 MGs. But the difference between number of weapons reflects on rate of fire. For example, 8 rifles will have higher RoF than 7

 

[vonLuck]

RoF only determines how quickly ammunition is depleted. He values as seen on unit cards represent a whole number as rounded up/down from the real number which is often fractional.

As for why 1 mg on a tank has the same he as two on another that is an arbitrary choice as made by the dev's. Perhaps balance was a factor in this choice but that is speculative.

von Luck

 

[bdictkam]

No, the HE value in card is for all 7 rifles, or 2 MGs. But the difference between number of weapons reflects on rate of fire. For example, 8 rifles will have higher RoF than 7

This still doesnt explain the 2 tank situations i posted, have the same type of MG, one having 2 and one having 3.. yet both having 7 HE
ex. bef panther vs panther D

 

[bdictkam]

RoF only determines how quickly ammunition is depleted. He values as seen on unit cards represent a whole number as rounded up/down from the real number which is often fractional.

As for why 1 mg on a tank has the same he as two on another that is an arbitrary choice as made by the dev's. Perhaps balance was a factor in this choice but that is speculative.

von Luck

If done for balance reasons, why even bother putting 3x vs 2x? Historical accuracy? But whats the point if effectively one is a ghost MG. AND if one of the 3mg's isnt actually there.. why do tanks that have a low cal MG and a 50cal have seperate HE values, aka a sherman would have 7 + 6 total HE (counting mgs). This is evidence further that each and every mg has its own value on a stack. If not a panther D with 3mg's would have 7HE yet a sherman would have 13HE... seems REALLY off.

In the case where they are treated separately the pantherD would have 3x 7 and sherman 2x 7 + 6, much more similar.

Further evidence is that half tracks with 7HE, seem to do MUCH less mg damage/s to infantry then a tank in their face with 7HE damage yet 2x or 3x mgs.

Even further, infantry units like pioneers that have 2 SMG's do 6HE with them, compared to pgens that do 3HE with their 1. So explain to me why would this hold true for infantry, yet wouldnt for tanks. There is something defiantly inconsistent and wrong here

 

[HallBregg]

There seems to be an inconsistency on how HE damage is presented. For infantery the number of weapons is already included in the HE for that tipe of weapon, however for tanks that doesn't seem to be the case, and I thnik HE should be counted as number of weapons times HE in the card.

 

[Sconna]

A weapon or ammunition(The term used in the modding files) consists of physical damage(Actual damage), suppression and has a rate of fire which is usually a hitcheck every 2 sec if it's a machine gun/rifle.

HE is some sort of guesstimate or automatic calculation that combines the above.

All infantry weapons counts as one single entity while on vehicles it counts as multiple. For instance, 2x mg42s on a pzgren counts as a single entity while 2x mg42s on a vehicle counts as 2 entity 1x mg42s.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet..._7lQ88Gf5dl8NjKCmhUaOAraY/edit#gid=1334923978 Here's a spreadsheet where you can dig up data yourself.

 

[bdictkam]

A weapon or ammunition(The term used in the modding files) consists of physical damage(Actual damage), suppression and has a rate of fire which is usually a hitcheck every 2 sec if it's a machine gun/rifle.

HE is some sort of guesstimate or automatic calculation that combines the above.

All infantry weapons counts as one single entity while on vehicles it counts as multiple. For instance, 2x mg42s on a pzgren counts as a single entity while 2x mg42s on a vehicle counts as 2 entity 1x mg42s.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet..._7lQ88Gf5dl8NjKCmhUaOAraY/edit#gid=1334923978 Here's a spreadsheet where you can dig up data yourself.

FINALLY someone to confirm this, i KNEW mg HE (mgs) on tanks was treated seperately in a stack. I think it is the same for planes otherwise planes like Ju88s would only be 5 HE rather then 96X5HE which it actually is.

This is really weird game design since obviously like you mentioned on infantry pgrens vs pioneers 1 vs 2 smgs is correctly shown as 3 vs 6 HE. Othercases too, 1 vs 2 mg42's, etc etc..


Could eugene in the next patch standardize these info cards so new players can comprehend this better? Thank you.

What is even more convoluted is ROF and its effect on a unit. Its clear to see when a AT or HE main shoot quicker or slower, aka brumar vs a panzer 4c. However when ground to air guns shoot, some have ROF of 999/m for example...

Now ive read hit checks are done every 2seconds, so does that mean 40ish actual projectiles were fired and all hit or missed in those 2 seconds? Was there actually 40ish projectiles fired? Or does the game simulate an instance that "would contain" that many shots but treats it as one? The reason i bring this up is when you use 20mm recon vehicles for example... it definetly feels even though they have huge rates of fire, you can never have more then say 1 critical happen every X seconds. So rather then shoot many actual projectiles, it seems like the game treats it like 1 projectile (many projectiles in 1 instance). I seems this period is about 2 seconds lining up with that hit check timer that i spoke of earlier.