Unit research should make later unit research cheaper

[Dewit]

In his video Generalist Gaming mentioned that he skipped researching military units entirely in the Age of Renaissance tech tree to focus on economy and mercs.

Timestamp: ~ 46:25

That is all well and good but it kinda sounds wrong to me to be able to just skip some unit research without any repercussions.
So in order to simulate experience gain etc if the player researched a unit in the last age there could/should be a slight research cost reduction (maybe 5-10%) to units research of the current age.
E.g. if you researched heavy cavalry in the Age of Renaissance, the heavy cavalry in the Age of Discovery is a bit cheaper to research for you.

What do you think?


P.s. maybe that could also be the case with production buildings that have an upgrade path idk

 

[Lepaso]

Tech trees seem to have this problem inherently. Either there is mandatory techs, and thus a meta develops around them, or it's so open-ended that ignoring chunks of the tree is perfectly viable and you can do things like ignoring military for an entire segment.

The problem with a discount-based approach is that you most likely still haven't solved the problem due to opportunity cost; for the sake of argument, say it takes 300 days to research cavalry tech. Spending 300 days to research it in the Renaissance age, thus making it only take 270 days in the Discovery age, still means I'm spending 570 days on cavalry research. If I can instead spend 300 days on researching production buildings and ignore the cavalry entirely until the next age taking the full 300 days, I've instead spent 600 days improving my ability to build up my economy and getting the same cavalry anyways - AND the next production building tech would be cheaper, too. Is a 30-day discount worth it? unlikely. What level of numbers would you need for this to be worth it?

 

[Dewit]

its a balancing question, that’s true.

Maybe later techs are more expensive (I don’t know if they are), in that case the discount is worth more for example (see table at the end).

In my opinion it should not be "worth it" in the sense that the reduction has to make up for it because having access to stronger units earlier in themself has value.
It would be more a slight nod to consistency in tech progress and it would favour specialisation a little bit, too.

Nation	A	B
Age I research 300 base	300 for building	300 for cav
Age 2 research 400 base	400 for cav	360 for cav (=400-400*0.1)
total research cost	700	660

 

[ImperatorVictor]

Let's face it, it would be much better to have a system that mixed the Victoria 3 and CK3 researches in which you would have certain technologies blocked if you had not previously researched others, in addition to being more logical and more historically accurate. Especially in the case of research related to constructions and production methods, or military units.

 

[Dewit]

Let's face it, it would be much better to have a system that mixed the Victoria 3 and CK3 researches in which you would have certain technologies blocked if you had not previously researched others, in addition to being more logical and more historically accurate. Especially in the case of research related to constructions and production methods, or military units.

maybe, but I also like the EUV approach and I try to think of a compromise.
What you see here is what I come up with and want to know if it would make it better from your point of view.

 

[cmcvass94]

its a balancing question, that’s true.

Maybe later techs are more expensive (I don’t know if they are), in that case the discount is worth more for example (see table at the end).

In my opinion it should not be "worth it" in the sense that the reduction has to make up for it because having access to stronger units earlier in themself has value.
It would be more a slight nod to consistency in tech progress and it would favour specialisation a little bit, too.

Nation	A	B
Age I research 300 base	300 for building	300 for cav
Age 2 research 400 base	400 for cav	360 for cav (=400-400*0.1)
total research cost	700	660

I like this idea, it encourages specialisation definently and allows for a more role play aspect into the game, I personally think. It still puts the question though, that logically it doesn't make sense in the instance that a nation who didn't research the basic firearms can research tier 2 firearms without even knowing how tier 1 firearms work.

 

[lukesilveira]

Honestly, I really dislike tech trees (as in, a tag controlling what to research next, one at a time, in a pre-determined and fully planned series). I'd prefer a mix of institutions and inventions (the latter being similar to Victoria 2), with technology being dynamically achieved by a series of factors. We could have multiple parallel paths representing different military units from around the world.

Perhaps the State could guide research toward certain sectors, giving a small bonus, but having technology fully driven by central authority feels completely at odds with the other mechanics they've developed.

 

[tempanon]

I like this idea, it encourages specialisation definently and allows for a more role play aspect into the game, I personally think. It still puts the question though, that logically it doesn't make sense in the instance that a nation who didn't research the basic firearms can research tier 2 firearms without even knowing how tier 1 firearms work.

a country dont need "research" relativity theory to prodce nuclear bomb
its more like "apply" techs in your coutry than "research" techs that every coutry has to invent individually

 

[cmcvass94]

a country dont need "research" relativity theory to prodce nuclear bomb

Maybe they don't I have zero understanding of physics and the impact that Einsteins theory had on the capabilities of making a nuclear weapon, I am assuming it was rather large contribution in regards to being able to accurately calculate the output of the explosion and the area it would consume. I do know that humans have a propensity to make explosions happen even in the most unlikely circumstances. But I think you are missing my point that going from producing (not using) advanced weaponry without a basic understanding of its mechanics is not a common thing to happen espically when it would likely be applied to a large scale of a professional army. I am neither a historian/engineer/physicist though and am purely speculating what I think is logical.

Edit:

its more like "apply" techs in your coutry than "research" techs that every coutry has to invent individually

This I can understand, but I still think that if a country is going to apply a technology they need to understand the technology

 

[Dewit]

Honestly, I don’t think they will rework how technology works before release. Maybe later.

I agree that it doesn’t make sense that you can research something before you know the basics but I understand research in this games context as not just true innovation but also as copying how something works from somebody else (you will not always be the first nation to invent something). And in that sense when you already know some basics it would make sense that you can apply your knowledge faster.

 

[lukesilveira]

Honestly, I don’t think they will rework how technology works before release. Maybe later.

I agree that it doesn’t make sense that you can research something before you know the basics but I understand research in this games context more like copying how something works from somebody else (you will not always be the first nation to invent something). And in that sense when you already know some basics it would make sense that you can apply your knowledge faster.

I don't think they'll rework it either.

What you are describing is what Victoria 3 calls "spread" and it works as a kind of passive tech research. I do think it'll eventually appear as a workaround in EU5, if it is not implemented already.

 

[dbruser]

In his video Generalist Gaming mentioned that he skipped researching military units entirely in the Age of Renaissance tech tree to focus on economy and mercs.

Timestamp: ~ 46:25

That is all well and good but it kinda sounds wrong to me to be able to just skip some unit research without any repercussions.
So in order to simulate experience gain etc if the player researched a unit in the last age there could/should be a slight research cost reduction (maybe 5-10%) to units research of the current age.
E.g. if you researched heavy cavalry in the Age of Renaissance, the heavy cavalry in the Age of Discovery is a bit cheaper to research for you.

What do you think?


P.s. maybe that could also be the case with production buildings that have an upgrade path idk

I mean skipping military research (and just relying on natural trickling IRL) is something that is very reasonable. Mercenearies, such as Italian Condotierri, were very prevalent throughout the era. Not all kingdoms invested heavily in their own military/armies normally, especially not early on.

The system you suggested seems cool and thematic, however it does come with the downside of encouraging very mono-lithic research paths throught the ages, not to mention a lot of big research breakthroughs and upgrades were not that dependent on focusing on the previous ones.

 

[Dewit]

I don't think they'll rework it either.

What you are describing is what Victoria 3 calls "spread" and it works as a kind of passive tech research. I do think it'll eventually appear as a workaround in EU5, if it is not implemented already.

As far as I know there is no tech spread in EUV and its also not what I meant.
Sorry for my convoluted phrasing.

I was referring to my idea above that if you already know something about heavy cav (the basics), that knowledge could be applied to faster research of new heavy cav.

 

[Dewit]

I mean skipping military research (and just relying on natural trickling IRL) is something that is very reasonable. Mercenearies, such as Italian Condotierri, were very prevalent throughout the era. Not all kingdoms invested heavily in their own military/armies normally, especially not early on.

The system you suggested seems cool and thematic, however it does come with the downside of encouraging very mono-lithic research paths throught the ages, not to mention a lot of big research breakthroughs and upgrades were not that dependent on focusing on the previous ones.

I agree, that is also a reason why I suggested only a small bonus,
and only from one age to the other (so no stacking over multiple ages etc),
and only for certain techs like units (and maybe buildings).

 

[pheonicia]

Take something from hoi4 and make some research not only cost time, but a certain amount of army XP. That way if you skip military research for an era you have to try and earn that army XP to upgrade with incredibly out of date units.

Paired with army XP decaying over time (to represent it becoming forgotten or outdated) and you could really make a system that forces you to fight in order to keep up.

 

[eclipsoon]

I feel Army Tradition (if it exists) should reduce military tech cost to simulate the fact that countries that are under constant wars/threat should be innovative enough to develop methods ahead of their neighbors.