Microsoft and Sony do not allow coded mods like that on the consoles. So that is why the coded mods is a no-go. Its not anything the CO/PDX can do anything about.
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I feel this decision is going to sting the pocketbook in the end.
No, that's where I am too. Losing Steam Workshop is unfortunate, but if the game struggles to be playable then none of that really matters.
I get the distinct impression they had no choice but to delay the console versions because performance is simply unacceptable, as the recommended PC specs are beyond the consoles. I don't think it'll never be fixed: they have to try and fix it to make that console release workable.
I'm more concerned that some of it simply isn't fixable because they overshot in terms of things they were trying to do and it's simply beyond the hardware that most people have. We've seen games do that before. Maybe they want the data from PC users too try to find the hotspots that they need to optimize from more actual play data... but as someone who was above the recommended specs and now isn't, this whole situation is really concerning and the fact that they bundled it in as effectively a minor note while talking up modding doesn't lend a lot of confidence.
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Yeah, I get it.
It's not like this change will make me not buy the game - I can get used to a new platform for mods, and it's not like I have to create a new account for that (at least from what I understand).
In the end, I'm actually more worried than upset really. As much as Steam has some serious negative sides, some of its features are essential, like automatically updating mods and the general ease of use. I'm not apocalyptic but I'll have to wait and see.
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It's a sad news for me with ParadoxMods only.
The thing that I scared about it is Paradox don't want us to download mods in Steam Workshop.
I'm not to saying that "ParadoxMods" is a bad thing, but at least we need a choose for which platform we can choose to download our mods.
Bad choice for ParadoxMods only.
And...no comments in ParadoxMods?
Tell me a brand new way for players who wants feedback to modder?
The thing that I scared about it is Paradox don't want us to download mods in Steam Workshop.
I'm not to saying that "ParadoxMods" is a bad thing, but at least we need a choose for which platform we can choose to download our mods.
Bad choice for ParadoxMods only.
And...no comments in ParadoxMods?
Tell me a brand new way for players who wants feedback to modder?
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Please do not use Anno 1800 as a bad example. The game was always running fine and stable and was also very, very demanding when it was released.
I am also disappointed that they decided against the workshop. And if they want to run their own mod portal, they HAVE TO do it right, like Factorio, and lately, Anno 1800 where Ubisoft cooperated with the scene and integrated the mod loader into the core code AND implemented ingame modsupport for an external website, including updates.
This is the only way it would be acceptable in current times. Having a mod portal to download zips, exctract and move folder brings us back to 2005 modding ala Sim City 4, not one step backwards, basically moving back two decades.
But I could also think of it that the workshop would come later, when the game got some updates and modding tools. Just imagine the nightmare when the whole new audience installs bad mods and crashes their game... it could also be damage control. CS:1 overperformed their expectations, CS:2 is on a complete other level of attention at release.
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I’m disappointed both with the content and the timing of this statement. I knew something was up when mod support wasn’t mentioned during the announcement videos, you knew it would be contentious and now drop it on us last minute.
Leaving out Steam Workshop support is questionable, it made the original game what it is, it’s a platform we know and trust while we don’t know as much what your plans are for your own mod platform. We run the risk you could just remove a mod or shut down access whenever you want, the original game lasted years - what guarantee do we have that the sequel will?
I understand the need for a platform able to deliver for console users, but there is absolutely no reason you can’t use Steam Workshop for PC and your own platform for console.
The game was worryingly unfinished during previews and now we know why. Because it’s not finished and not fully optimised. PC specs have moved upwards even after your customers bought new parts, this is a failure on your part that will leave some people out of pocket.
What I’m most concerned about and why I’m thinking about refunding is the lack of transparency (despite what you say) by waiting until just before launch to fess up to all this.
Steam Workshop support must be added back, the game must be optimised properly and you need to talk to the community much more than you have been instead of hiding decisions you knew would be contentious. Removing Steam Workshop support? What were you thinking?
Leaving out Steam Workshop support is questionable, it made the original game what it is, it’s a platform we know and trust while we don’t know as much what your plans are for your own mod platform. We run the risk you could just remove a mod or shut down access whenever you want, the original game lasted years - what guarantee do we have that the sequel will?
I understand the need for a platform able to deliver for console users, but there is absolutely no reason you can’t use Steam Workshop for PC and your own platform for console.
The game was worryingly unfinished during previews and now we know why. Because it’s not finished and not fully optimised. PC specs have moved upwards even after your customers bought new parts, this is a failure on your part that will leave some people out of pocket.
What I’m most concerned about and why I’m thinking about refunding is the lack of transparency (despite what you say) by waiting until just before launch to fess up to all this.
Steam Workshop support must be added back, the game must be optimised properly and you need to talk to the community much more than you have been instead of hiding decisions you knew would be contentious. Removing Steam Workshop support? What were you thinking?
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But the Main Question is: Will the CPU, or the GPU be more important in terms of game performance?
(And I am not talking about gaining some huge screen resolution - but difference in game play; simulation speed, stuttering display when view rotated - such kind of things.)
I now have computer where C:S1 runs at 50% CPU load and 25% GPU load. 650 000 citizens, 1080p display. Shall I buy a new CPU or graphics card?
My guess is that performance will be fine if you lower enough detail. Sure, you'll run the game with worse performance than you probably thought but I don't see that as a deal breaker unless you have a minimum requirements level rig. I think you should be able to run the game with more or less eye candy.
Modding is different. After playing modded CS1 I just won't play CS2 without some of the features I'm used to or without the ability to download custom assets. Anything that makes it harder or more cumbersome than the Steam Workshop already is for installing and organizing mods might easily be a deal breaker for me.
The main reason mods have become so popular in CS is in my opinion because the steam workshop. Ease of use and accessible to even casuals to at least try them, instead of having to dig into Nexusmods or some other place where you have to register and read installation instructions. And that's even way more important in CS, where you can easily have thousands of subscribed assets.
And not only subscribe (or unsubscribe) to many of them in one go but also to share mod/asset collections. You can be looking at a youtube video and after two clicks from the video description install all the mods/assets used for the map you just saw in the video.
The Paradox Workshop will have to at least be at the same level, if not better. I don't think many people people used to the SW will transition to the PW if the experience is significantly worse.
Hard to say with any degree of certainty because there is still a lot we don't know but look at the recommended hardware: a 3080 for 1080p.
What are the assumptions, what texture resolution, fps, average fps or minimum fps, what graphical settings, what size of city...? and I take for granted that's without mods or custom assets.
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Two things:
1) Cties Skyline 1 without Mods would be a boring and underperforming game, even with a great potential.
2) All the new titles at launch and for months, and some time for years or forever (Imperator still hurts), are kept alive by the Mods.
This announcement slows down my enthusiasm and my intention to purchase.
1) Cties Skyline 1 without Mods would be a boring and underperforming game, even with a great potential.
2) All the new titles at launch and for months, and some time for years or forever (Imperator still hurts), are kept alive by the Mods.
This announcement slows down my enthusiasm and my intention to purchase.
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I'm not convinced of that. If it was just a detail issue then there's no real need to delay the console release this much. Turn down the settings so the console GPU can handle it and you're set. It won't look as flashy, but it'll work. Course, consoles don't have 3080 level hardware in them, and I have real questions about why a city simulator needs that kind of hardware for 1080p when a 30080 can easily crank out 1440p in other, high end games and even do pretty solid 4k (especially with the help of DLSS). Like, budget cards can do 1080p these days.
So there's a problem there... but I think the CPU is likely also a problem. The recommended CPU is well above what's in any console, by a couple of generations (two by AMD count, since thats whats in the consoles). Some of that is just going to be PC gaming overhead, but this game wants a fair bit of CPU power. Since we know they're trying to simulate a lot more things than in the first game at more detail, it's entirely probable they're also running into problems in large cities where they are getting CPU bound and can't keep up.
That feels like it would be harder to fix than a graphics issue, since if they overdid it on graphic detail there are ways to turn it down, but it's pretty hard to at the last minute change how the simulation the whole game is based on works.
All just speculation of course, but the amount of softening the ground they're doing for people to expect performance problems really makes me doubt it's just graphics. Because it if its really just graphics, then there must be some real inefficiency somewhere.
What a mess.
Revealing all of this a week before launch is borderline manipulative.
The decision for Paradox mods was made a long time ago and the fact you decide to reveal it now after getting all of these preorders seems malicious to me.
And about the performance thing; the least you should do is go on depth on what the bottle necks are (Vram, CPU cores, GPU, etc.) So people can know if they're actually going to run the game.
Another big problem is what if paradox decides to have paid mods, or what if they remove mods that eventually include some future DLC content, or what will happen 10 years from now when they shut off the paradox mods or CS2 servers?
At this point, delay the game for a few more months and return the steam workshop support (leave paradox mods for any modders who decide to use it for console players).
Revealing all of this a week before launch is borderline manipulative.
The decision for Paradox mods was made a long time ago and the fact you decide to reveal it now after getting all of these preorders seems malicious to me.
And about the performance thing; the least you should do is go on depth on what the bottle necks are (Vram, CPU cores, GPU, etc.) So people can know if they're actually going to run the game.
Another big problem is what if paradox decides to have paid mods, or what if they remove mods that eventually include some future DLC content, or what will happen 10 years from now when they shut off the paradox mods or CS2 servers?
At this point, delay the game for a few more months and return the steam workshop support (leave paradox mods for any modders who decide to use it for console players).
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While I personally don’t mind the loss of Steam Workshop (I’m sure we can still put mods on the likes of Nexus mods or moddb) so with the focus of sharing mods with consoles, my primary concern about modding in CS2 is the potential loss of scripting capabilities. CS1 offered great flexibility and made code available for modification which allowed for things like Electric Roads, BulldozeIt, and Traffic Manager.
Will an API still be available to modders?
Will an API still be available to modders?
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No map editing at release probably means I won't play the game at release. I'm sorry, I'm sure their expertly crafted maps are beautiful, but part of what I enjoyed about those games is working on maps, on geography that is meaningful to me.
Take that away, and the game does not offer what I need to enjoy it, and no amount of life path nonsense can fix that.
Not sure whether that means I'm canceling my preorder or just waiting to see, but it does feel like every word out of colossal order mouth the past month has been to announce another disappointment. Not great.
Take that away, and the game does not offer what I need to enjoy it, and no amount of life path nonsense can fix that.
Not sure whether that means I'm canceling my preorder or just waiting to see, but it does feel like every word out of colossal order mouth the past month has been to announce another disappointment. Not great.
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Only leaving one option is unacceptable. Despite I hated steam workshop's logistic nightmare as a content creator, from the perspective of a steam user ( which I believed made up the majority of the playerbase and creators ), steam is an already existing and functional solution. One can easily access the community, browse and subscribe to mods, contact the author directly without the need of an additional forum thread, all within the existing framework.
In comparison pdx launcher is still a cluster F after 4 whole years which makes me wonder if pdx really has the ability to manage such a large project. The decision is understandable, workshop and pdxmod co-existing basically means no one will upload contents to pdxmod, but completely taking away the alternative is just a bad corporate decision and by no means should be acceptable.
On the bright side, at least the team address the issue pre release, so there's still plenty of time left for refunding.
In comparison pdx launcher is still a cluster F after 4 whole years which makes me wonder if pdx really has the ability to manage such a large project. The decision is understandable, workshop and pdxmod co-existing basically means no one will upload contents to pdxmod, but completely taking away the alternative is just a bad corporate decision and by no means should be acceptable.
On the bright side, at least the team address the issue pre release, so there's still plenty of time left for refunding.
So it's all about allowing console players to get mods, great! But wait what does the FAQ say?
So only assets, not mods will be on console. So wait, what exactly is the point of this now? Why not just allow both paradox mods AND steam workshop, since only assets can go to console anyway?
This is just an incredibly bad decision. Even if steam workshop has issues, it is far superior to your own mod platform right now.
Revealing this so close to release is obviously done on purpose. You knew this would be disliked by many players, otherwise you would have been upfront about this, since this is decision had to be made a long time ago.
I also don't think being aware of performance issues and releasing anyway is "good". Maybe just fix the game before releasing it? If you need a delay, then delay it. You will just get bad reviews on release, and honestly, they will be deserved.
Anyway, this basically killed all my excitement for the game. I will stick to CS1 and wait to see what happens here.
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I'm a console player I understand CO and Paradox in a way, they want a uniform platform for mods. I also understand the concern of the PC community as I believe PC players made CS1 to what it was. However I still believe PC players will be able to mod their cities like they used to do. I think CO and Paradox just wanted to avoid bad coding of these mods killing the game as we seen in the past with various mods, hence keeping this in their hands and sort of in-house. I don't think anyone can possible object to that.
As for console players, great that the library is expanded and all assets be cross platform available. In CS1 this was very poor managed, the assets were s41t (edit: bad).
Few questions hoping that can be clarified by CO/Paradox:
1) There was sort of limit on these, can CO and Paradox clarify is there now no space limit? Do we have asset galore?
2) Next question on console, if indeed all assets are available does this only included buildings, flowers, trees other assets to decorate things? If so whats the point
without a treeline plop tool, or anarchy or move it kind of tool ?
3) Does assets include cars, trains, planes?
4) Do PC and console assets differ and are they therefor compiled again and released at later date?
5) As console is closed off codewise, does console get in game tools like plop, traffic manager and move it and a form of anarchy ?
As for console players, great that the library is expanded and all assets be cross platform available. In CS1 this was very poor managed, the assets were s41t (edit: bad).
Few questions hoping that can be clarified by CO/Paradox:
1) There was sort of limit on these, can CO and Paradox clarify is there now no space limit? Do we have asset galore?
2) Next question on console, if indeed all assets are available does this only included buildings, flowers, trees other assets to decorate things? If so whats the point
without a treeline plop tool, or anarchy or move it kind of tool ?
3) Does assets include cars, trains, planes?
4) Do PC and console assets differ and are they therefor compiled again and released at later date?
5) As console is closed off codewise, does console get in game tools like plop, traffic manager and move it and a form of anarchy ?
Good to hear it from the horses mouth.
on mods:
on mods:
- reading between the lines it seems we will get some very popular mods very soon post launch. Excellent.
- there does not seem to be commitment to mod quality control and compatibility with future releases. shame, but this could end up being expensive so.. let’s see. We’re used to having to use loads of mods in cs1 as there was lots to fix but in cs2 world we might need less so future compatibility might be less of a complex issue
- on performance- well we want this game to look great and be complex don’t we so this comes at a cost. I bought 4080 with i9 13900, 64gb ddr5 and super fast ssd. If this doesn’t suffice then its Going to get messy
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So instead of delaying the game to add Steam Workshop support and patch the game so it works on anything but a supercomputer, you're greedily releasing it early on PC because you can? Unlike the Console versions which are obviously not at the standard required to pass the Microsoft/Sony certification process?
This is going to be a disaster at launch. I'm thinking it'll be lucky to hit a 70 on metacritic if the performance issues are what we're expecting + the downgrades to citizen size + no steam workshop.
This is going to be a disaster at launch. I'm thinking it'll be lucky to hit a 70 on metacritic if the performance issues are what we're expecting + the downgrades to citizen size + no steam workshop.
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