Upgraded Mesomerica

[BuchiTaton]

With the lastest updates all the Americas are falling behind compared to the old world in level of detail, not to forget in game balance and fun factor. So a big update for the new world is needed.

Since upgrade two continents can be a monumental task we can start with the priorities, and the american region number one is MESOAMERICA!, if you ask why these are the reasons:

- Mesoamerica was for 18/19 of the game's time range the most populated region of the Americas.
- It is calculated that Mesoamerica had between 1/3 to 1/5 of all precolombine population of America in a region that represent just 1/17 of the Americas area.
- Is the better documented region of America about their pre-european history (with writing system and calendar since BC era).
- Currently just Mexico is the 4th country in biodiversity and number of languages, that is because the great variety of climates and terrains that generate diversity of biomes and then great cultural diversity.
- Mesoamerica and the Andean regions have similar levels of society (city-states to empires). Even if the Inca Empire was more a real empire "a la Roman Empire" while the Aztecs was more a "bully extortioner" state and the andean civs were ahead in the use of metallurgy and had llamas. Mesoamerica already had early production of bronze, and were ahead in writing and mathematics.
- Also the cities in Mesoamerica were way bigger and way more numerous that the andine ones.
- Mesomaerica have something in commun with the HRE and Japan, and that is an accumulation of small warring states (some of the more appealing scenarios for competitive players).

So here are some maps to represent the changes needed for Mesoamerica:

NATIVE PROVINCE NAMES (Mainly nahuatl names).

1444 NATIVE STATES (Capital letters for "Nations" and lowercase for Kingdoms).

1444 NATIVE CULTURES (Number of provinces indicated).

EUROPEAN PROVINCE NAMES (Post conquest name and date).

1821 CULTURE MAP (For New Spain).

TERRAIN MAP.

I tried to achieve balance between gameplay and historicity (that is why some "wrong" cultural grouping like the Mixe with Zapotecs instead of with the Zoques), and between the provincial division in the precolombine Mesoamerica and the colonial New Spain (in the awesome work for Mesoamerica by the team of Meiou and Taxes, I think they have almost all their desing based in the pre-european political divisions, but lack space to relevant post conquest areas like the Bajio region).

And remember that even the smaller of these mesoamerican provinces is still bigger that the average european province (game´s map projection dont help much any region in this latitudes).

 

[neondt]

Good post, thanks for taking the time to make this

 

[Clonefusion]

Would u not want to detail the valley of mexico a bit more ?

 

[FleetingRain]

Interesting, you've gone more or less for what I was aiming for.

What have been your sources? I'm a bit gimped in that, what with mostly using Wikipedia and the Codex Mendoza, but I haven't even tried checking colonial borders lol.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Would u not want to detail the valley of mexico a bit more ?

Well for sure being the valley of Mexico the most populated and rich region of all Mesomerica I originally considered split it off in 4 provinces:
- Mexica to the north.
- Acolhua in the east.
- Tepaneca at the west.
- Chalca to the south.

But in the end I rejected this because two reasons:
A) HISTORICAL: By 1444 the valley of Mexico was already unified by Itzcóatl, the previous emperor.
B) PRACTICITY: Dont want to have too small provinces.

I think the valley of Mexico can be OK with very high development numbers.

Interesting, you've gone more or less for what I was aiming for.
.....
What have been your sources? I'm a bit gimped in that, what with mostly using Wikipedia and the Codex Mendoza, but I haven't even tried checking colonial borders lol.

I used many resourses but two very usefull are the codex Tlaxcala and the Revillagigedo census of 1790. In the desing of the provinces I tried to keep some criteria:
- Give weight to both the precolombine altéptls and the viceregal intendencies.
- Use the native cultures distribution and the physiografic divisions (that matches greatly with the political provinces).
- Keep in mind the population density.
- A minimun of 10000 km2 area for the provinces.

 

[FleetingRain]

Well for sure being the valley of Mexico the most populated and rich region of all Mesomerica I originally considered split it off in 4 provinces:
- Mexica to the north.
- Acolhua in the east.
- Tepaneca at the west.
- Chalca to the south.

But in the end I rejected this because two reasons:
A) HISTORICAL: By 1444 the valley of Mexico was already unified by Itzcóatl, the previous emperor.
B) PRACTICITY: Dont want to have too small provinces.

I think the valley of Mexico can be OK with very high development numbers.



I used many resourses but two very usefull are the codex Tlaxcala and the Revillagigedo census of 1790. In the desing of the provinces I tried to keep some criteria:
- Give weight to both the precolombine altéptls and the viceregal intendencies.
- Use the native cultures distribution and the physiografic divisions (that matches greatly with the political provinces).
- Keep in mind the population density.
- A minimun of 10000 km2 area for the provinces.

Nice. I'll have a look at those to help myself.

 

[BalticM]

Overall very nice map, but I wonder how much development is in there?
I guess it's not 3-development provinces only, and with so many provinces Mexico might end up just too strong and inbalanced.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Overall very nice map, but I wonder how much development is in there?
I guess it's not 3-development provinces only, and with so many provinces Mexico might end up just too strong and inbalanced.

How so? They were pretty important for Spain, and would be pretty strong on their own if they somehow got hands on tech/tactics of Europe.

For me the bigger concern is restoring agency to players who start in these regions, though the extra vision that would likely arise from populating past Panama would help.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Overall very nice map, but I wonder how much development is in there?
I guess it's not 3-development provinces only, and with so many provinces Mexico might end up just too strong and inbalanced.

Good point, development balance is a problem. There are some easy solutions like give almost all the provinces in this area the minimun development, but that is historicaly wrong because have provinces with at least 1500 years of history as city-state at the same level or lower that some group of hunter-gatherers from Canada is awful.

Now here is where this become a opportunity more that a problem.
One of the bigger problem of the game to represent colonialism is the shallow depiction of DISEASE, that was the best aid for europeans in their conquest of the Americas, but at the same time their bigger impediment in the colonization of Africa.

So add a disease system (like the one in MEIOU and Taxes) can be a chance to have:
- One oportunity window for old world nations to "blitzkrieg" Mesoamerica and the Andes (someting like 100 years of masive malus in development and manpower for native nations after contact with old world).
- In the other hand this can be a more challenging scenario for native players (should be an option to disable this disease system in the start menu, for a more sandbox gameplay if the player want).
- No more 17th century Scramble for Africa.
- Even the chance for some event chains that if the player dont chose wisely could turn pretty bad (the Black Dead is back!).

After all this can be a chance for the Treaty of Tordesillasto to instead of just give right over colonial regions, it could give you unique features like a unique casus belli againts "primitives" (aka Spain style) or big bonus to colonization and trade companies (aka Portugal style). That way the player could achieve the impresive historical expansion of the Iberian powers, that is already more dificult to reach in historical time that a later fantastical 19th century world conquest.

Now if this Tordesillas bonus sound too strong, it could be temporal (something like 100-150 years or so).

EDIT:
Also, remember that regions like Europe have almost all their provinces with friendly development cost terrain (farmlands, grasslands, drylands and woods) and climate (temperate). While Mesoamerica have a higger proportion of harsh terrain (mountains, jungle, hills, desert, etc.) and climate (more that 2/3 are tropical or arid).

 

[Celdur]

Overall very nice map, but I wonder how much development is in there?
I guess it's not 3-development provinces only, and with so many provinces Mexico might end up just too strong and inbalanced.

"Balance" this is about reflecting history. The region was not unified on contact with Europeans that's balance enough, also, there should be an event that wipes out 90% of manpower development in the first 50 years of contact with Europeans, every province should have events that would tick until 90% of that province's manpower is lost and it would stop ticking 50 years after first contact with Europeans. Not any of that tech minus nonsense, the advanced nations of both Mesoamerica and the Andes used iron/steel, horses and guns very quickly after learning of them, most of the "official" history of the "conquest" is pure myth. The Spanish lead a civil war and put themselves on top of the diplomatic hirearchy forming alliances and marring into the native nobility, afterwards the population dropped by 90% and 100% in many regions, which enabled them to secure the "conquest".

In game terms it was more like claiming the throne of the HRE, winning a war against the ruling emperor and then passing reforms to consolidate the realm both in the Viceroyalty of New Spain (Mexico) and the Viceroyalty of Peru (Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Colombia, Chile, Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, until the XVIII century) They were able to consolidate because 90% of the people died, and the allied native nobilty's families with which the conquistadors had had sons and daughters resisted the waves of plague better than the other nobilty that didn't married into the Spanish.

No large army was ever sent into the Americas, and no, the Spanish were not kryptonian supermen that could win odds of 1 v 1000, they were good warriors but more importantly shrewd politicians that used their brains not just their brawn to take rulership over the land.

 

[ValhallArchitect]

This is awesome.
I guess you used some of the Aztec Empire tributary provinces to carve out some of the new provinces.

Aztec empire Strategies has a lot of content regarding the area, and provides historical maps for the 15th century

 

[ValhallArchitect]

After all this can be a chance for the Treaty of Tordesillasto to instead of just give right over colonial regions, it could give you unique features like a unique casus belli againts "primitives" (aka Spain style) or big bonus to colonization and trade companies (aka Portugal style). That way the player could achieve the impresive historical expansion of the Iberian powers, that is already more dificult to reach in historical time that a later fantastical 19th century world conquest.

This idea is great.
I think Tordesillas is currently facing many issues.
For one, it should not be used to « define » a dynamic colonial country. Mother nation should have the final word on the administration of their colonies (which all started as charter companies before being turned into colonies), to decide how centralized it should be (a single Canada or thirteen colonies with their respective « owner »).
It would also avoid stupid issues like colonizing one province too far north of Louisiana ending in this province being handed over to your Newfoundland colony, resulting in a completely isolated exclave.

Secondly, CN borders should be reworked. Canada doesn’t make sense as it is, as it only corresponds to the modern and late border of the country, not on its history.
The entire St Lawrence and Mississipi were explored by Champlain and many other, and they did not just turn their head northwest, but lead explorations both sides of the river.
Besides, they were always administered as «centralized » French colonies, north and south of the St Lawrence, and west and east of the mississipi, and even after the British proclamation of 1763 which retained the Appalaches as the frontier between British colonies, catholic (Canada) territory and the Indian reservation.
The south st Lawrence (and the east mississsipi equally) were only integrated in the US after 1776, meaning it concerns only the very late period of the game.
Tordesillas treaty was granted by the pope to nations « didcovering » a territory, and as such makes more sense to stop a Regio east of the Appalaches, another including the St Lawrence basin and the third one including the whole mississipi river basin, as they were natural exploration routes and barriers.

Also, I totally support the addition of a « disease » mechanic having effect on manpower. I feel this is completely missing, and could be a nice flavor for the old world as well. Famines, diseases, plagues, could be part of a mechanics DLC like CK2 had its own.
I do fear however, that it would also require a return of a more literal translation between manpower and population... something I totally support, but which the devs seem unlikely to support

 

[BuchiTaton]

Now here is the map of trade goods for the pre-euro Mesoamerica.

Some notorious goods are:
- Gems like the jade from Guatemala, amber from Chiapas and turquoise from Zacatecas.
- Cooper from Michoacan.
- The Amate paper from the sierras of Puebla and the Balsas basin.
- The salt from the Sayula-Zacoalco basin and the coast of Yucatan.
- The dyes from the Grana Cochinilla bug and the Purpura Pansa snail of Oaxaca.
- Spices like the Chili and the Vanilla.
- Copal incense from ocotes and burseras.

And there are other relevant mesoamerican trade goods that cant be represent with the current options we have, like:
- Shells and coral (Gems?)
- Feathers (Silk?)
- Obsidian (Iron?)
- Pulque and Mescal (Wine?)

NOTE: I am now working in the map for colonial trade goods.

 

[BalticM]

No Livestock? I believe there should be some.

And I believe there should be quite some provinces producing Dye in Central America south of Mexico and north of Panama. At least English set up colonies there nearly exclusively just for access to Dye logwood.
Belize 100% producing Dye

And just googled a little. Seems like Yucatan Peninsula was the center of this Dye logwood.

 

[BuchiTaton]

No Livestock? I believe there should be some.

And I believe there should be quite some provinces producing Dye in Central America south of Mexico and north of Panama. At least English set up colonies there nearly exclusively just for access to Dye logwood.
Belize 100% producing Dye

And just googled a little. Seems like Yucatan Peninsula was the center of this Dye logwood.

- Dye woods (Añil) added.

Now, here is the NEW SPAIN / MEXICO map (1820):

- Some gold mines depleted (Guerrero) and new ones in the Altiplano.
- Introduction of cattle and sheep.
- Sugar plantations (also Coffee at the very end of games time range in Costa Rica).
- Wine is a special case, because there was vine cultivation since middle 16th century in the Altiplano, but was later prohibited to protect the Spain import monopoly.

 

[AndrejK]

Oh yes. I do like boosting Mexico!

 

[BuchiTaton]

CULTURE GROUPING:

A) "Broad" regional culture groups option:

1. ARIDOAMERICAN group.
   1. Coahuiltec
   2. Yuman
   3. Puebloan
   4. Piman
   5. Taracahitic
2. MESOAMERICAN group.
   1. Corachol
   2. Chichimec
   3. Teco
   4. Purepecha
   5. Otomi
   6. Huastec
   7. Nahua
   8. Mazahua
   9. Tlapanec
   10. Mixtec
   11. Zapotec
   12. Totonac
3. CENTRALAMERICAN group.
   1. Zoque
   2. Tzeltal
   3. Chol
   4. Yucatec
   5. Mopan
   6. Qiche
   7. Mam
   8. Lenca
   9. Mangue
   10. Misumalpan
4. CHIBCHAN group:
   1. Huetar
   2. Others from Great Colombia region.

B) Language groups option.

1. HOKAN: Yuman and Taracahitic (and some from California).
   
2. UTOAZTECAN: Puebloan, Piman, Taracahitic, Corachol, Chichimec and Nahua (and others from the north like Shoshone).
3. OTOMANGUEAN: Otomi, Teco?, Mazahua, Tlapanec, Mixtec, Zapotec and Mangue.
4. TOTOZOQUEAN: Totonac and Zoque.
5. MAYAN: Huastec, Tzeltal, Chol, Yucatec, Mopan, Qiche and Mam.
6. MACROCHIBCHAN: Purepecha?, Lenca?, Misumalpan? and Huetar (and others from the south like chibcha).

 

[AndrejK]

Proposal "B" looks more reasonable, however I doubt whether ut is right to put Nahua in the same group as the northern barbarians, as the Aztecs took up the culture from their neighbours, in so that it would make their game challenging inasmuch they will get unaccepted culture penalties.
For heavens sale, why are there no two way groupings? Linguistic and regional.
Nahua to be in Utoaztecan linguistic group and Mesoamerican regional grouping

 

[BuchiTaton]

Here is another option:

C) "Sub-regional" culture groups:

1. ARIDOAMERICAN = Nomad hunter-gatherers from the arid plains and hills.
   1. Yuman
   2. Coahuiltec
2. OASISAMERICAN = Farmer pueblo builders from the sierras, descendants of the ancient Anasazi, Mogollon and Hohokam cultures.
   1. Puebloan
   2. Piman
   3. Taracahitic
3. TEUCHITLAN = The occidente and norte areas of Mesoamerica. They are considered the "oodballs" of Mesoamerica, because even if they share many cultural elements with the other regions of Mesoamerica their origins are somekind of independent, reaching back to the "Shaft Tomb" tradition like the Chupicuaro and Teuchitlan cultures. Even by the time of the spanish conquest the Tarascan Empire was notorious by their unusual religion, customs and war rules.
   1. Corachol
   2. Chichimec
   3. Teco
   4. Purepecha
   5. Otomi
   6. Huastec (Huatecs are problematic, they are of mayan origin, and share many aspects with the other peoples of the gulf like the Totonacs, but from the posclassic onwards they were influenced by the Chichimecs. The Aztec even noted their weird and "barbarian" customs like dye red their hair or go nude even in their cities. Finally during the spanish conquest, the dreadful Nuño Beltran de Guzman devastated this proposed cultural region group to link their conquest in the Nueva Galicia and the Panuco).
4. TOLTECAN = The core region of the 3 big empires from central Mexico, first Teotihuacan, then Toltec, and later the Aztec.
   1. Totonac
   2. Nahua
   3. Mazahua
   4. Tlapanec
   5. Mixtec
   6. Zapotec
   7. Zoque
5. MAYAN = The proper mayan cultural region.
   1. Tzeltal
   2. Chol
   3. Yucatec
   4. Mopan
   5. Qiche
   6. Mam
6. CENTRALAMERICAN = The marginal mesoamerican region south to the mayans. Their kingdoms were less impresive that the classic mayans, but the more we know from archeology it becomes clear that conquistadores were not exaggerating about the "White" or "Monkey god" city.
   1. Lenca
   2. Mangue
   3. Misumalpan
7. ITSHMIAN = Disperse farmer villages in the dense jungle of Costa Rica, Panama an the northwest coast of Colombia.
   1. Huetar
   2. Embera

Also in this scheme is better to make the Chibchan group in a "Colombian" group with Chibcha (Muiscas), Tayrona, Paezan, Timoto-cuicas, etc. The whole region of tribal federations, instead of be based in language.​

​

 

[BuchiTaton]

Some changes.

NEW CULTURES MAP:

> Now Janambre province is of Huastec culture, but is still uncolonized (the Tamaulipas Sierra have classic huastec sites, so huastec culture nations can use a "Recolonize our frontier land mission", similar case for corachol, chichimec and oasisamerican nations).

> PROPOSED PUEBLOAN NATIONS:
- Tiwa ("Pueblo" province, change province name to Taos).
- Keres (Acoma province).
- Zuni (Zuni province).
- Hopi (Hopi province).
Pueblo must be a formable union tag, that also gives claims over Apache, Chiricahua and Piro provinces (ancient Anasazi homeland).

> QUERECHOS.
At 1444 the ancestors of Apaches and Navajo were relatively new in the southwest of present USA. They are athabaskan people from the north and by the time of spanish contact (one century later) they were know as Querechos, described as nomadic bison hunters. Also we can guess that Navajos were at their current land by that time, but the Apaches were mainly at "Llano Estancado" (Mescalero province). Finally, from archeology and spanish narrations (included those about the Jumanos) its clear that the "Apaches/Navajos" of late 19th century are the result of 300 years of interaction with Puebloans and Spaniards peoples.

> Other changes:
- More provinces as Yuman and Coahuiltec culture.
- The Tullanztinco province must change name to Pachuca after spanish conquest.