US overpowerd and SU underpowerd

[unmerged(56295)]

Just started playing Core for DD and think it's a good mod but I feel USA is way overpowerd. By mid 1940 in my current game (hard/normal) the US has 400 ships, 36 air wings, 49 army div, a base IC of 460 and all the manpower thay will ever need. This hardly seems reasonable.

The SU has really been weakend due to low IC and until you get the mobilize events very low manpower. But the toughest blow for the reds is their semi-industrialized state wich makes it impossible to boost their IC until late 38 or early 39 when 39 heavy industry is researched and by then you don't have the time to expand the IC. This leaves SU really weak since you have to build a ton of obsolete units early in the game and SU is really poor at upgrading units. Another blow for the SU is the absence of good events that shift your hawkslider so all those slider moves have to be made manully wich leaves you way back in drafted army.

One might claim this is historical but sometimes game balance has to be prioritized over historical correctness. I would like the SU to get a boost in their IC to about 200 and add the events that gives SU free hawk moves. The US IC should be toned down somewhat to maybe 30 less base IC.

 

[dec152000]

Hi,

I'd agree that both of these nations need further tweaking for 0.30 and I expect you'll see some changes in the directions you proposed. Some of the issues with the SOV seem very appropriate, but ITRW the SOV were spending a lot on industrialization at this point so preventing them from building IC just doesn't work for me.

mm

 

[unmerged(55833)]

Another blow for the SU is the absence of good events that shift your hawkslider so all those slider moves have to be made manully wich leaves you way back in drafted army.

One might claim this is historical but sometimes game balance has to be prioritized over historical correctness. I would like the SU to get a boost in their IC to about 200 and add the events that gives SU free hawk moves. The US IC should be toned down somewhat to maybe 30 less base IC.

It's extremely, extremely historical.

So the question becomes are you playing single player or multi-player.

Single player is overly easy because you ussually only fight a one front war. Which is a-historical.

I rarely if ever see a D-Day invasion. The worst I'll get is an infantry and a tank try to assault a province I have garrisoned and 5 coastal forts.

So if you play multiplayer game, and you change it the way you suggest, Germany looses every time.

SU fends them off well, then US invades. Game over.

This way Germany pushes SU, US invades. Then what happens depends on the quality of the players. And it's either sides games. Even if the SU is horribly unupgraded.

 

[unmerged(25355)]

The USSR had a "drafted" army, if getting dragged from your house given a uniform and sent to the front is being drafted. I agree USSR should be able to expand IC, but there should not be any need. There should be 5-year Program events to boost the Soviet IC.

The US industry is fine, but a peace/Great Depression modifier needs to be imposed to keep the US from fully utilizing it unit war breaks out.

 

[unmerged(54901)]

Hi

An interesting mod. I usually play a minor nation, and especially I like playing Finland and try helping Germany defeat the SU.

I installed CORE 0.25 and these are my experiences playing Finland from 1936-autumn 1942. N/N.

First, the game was very slow for a couple of months or so, around March-May 1936. Since then the game has been as quick as regular DD most of the time. (Sometimes it is hanging a bit, but rarely for more than a day or two).

Second, it was really hard to play Finland with 7/13 IC and starting the game with 12 infantry divisions in addition to a much larger fleet than in regular HOI2 DD. I was considering abaondoning some units to cope, but through changing ministers (+10 IC bonus etc.) and nothing but industrial research the first years I did eventually manage to get on pretty well. Through luck I got the chance to make Finland a dictatorship in mid 1936, and sometime in 1937 I allied the axis. Very soon after allying Germany I got some events that boosted my IC and manpower (mobilising), so from around mid 1937 I had 15/13 IC, and in 1939 I got the industry tech allowing me to build factories. All in all quite a realistic scenario. The Winter war did not happen, so I invaded Norway. Germany invaded Denmark soon after annexing Poland, but it was Germany that DOW Norway in early 1940 or so (which Finland annexed after buying one transporter from Germany). Germany also took out France very early, and then Yugoslivia more or less around the normal time (march or so 1941). By then I had lined up all my divisions (12, no chance of neither improving Finland's IC nor their number of divisions by 1941) ready to attack Sweden, but to my big surprise Germany DOW SU already in early april 1941! I.e. just days after annexing Yugosloavia and despite having as little as 1-2 divisions in each county bordering the SU.

I thus had to reload to my latest save game, 1 march 1941, and during the next month I did what I could to bring back my divisions to Finland to protect her against the SU. I had 10 divisions back when Germany again DOW on the SU in early april 1941, despite its weak position.

From april 1941 until late 1941 Finland then really struggles to survive. I got the two last divisions back to help defend against the SU, but SU push with about 30 divisions against my 10-12, and at one point I even lose Helsinki, but finally, due to the German advance further south, the battle halts as winter starts and Finland has a handful counties left in the SE of Finland and most of Norway (one division alone protecting Norway, pushed back to Narvik).

WHAT IS ODD IS THAT WHEN GERMANY ATTACKED SU IN APRIL 1941, THE SU HAD ONLY 120-150 DIVISIONS, AND HAD LESS IC THAN BASE IC! GERMANY HAD 180+ DIVISIONS. 30+ of SU's divisions were bordering Finland, and were the last divisions to be defeated before Germany got BC in september 1942.

So, why was SU so weak both in IC and especially divisions by spring 1941? Is this standard for CORE 0.25?

When BP came, one county of Norway which was Finnish (Finland annexed Norway) became German (it was Finnish but SU controlled it after taking it from Finland). I think this county should have been given back to Finland and not becoming part of Germany when BP happened.

Moreover, which is part of the BP bug, Leningrad, which was taken by my Finnish HQ once Germany had killed its defending divisions, was given away to SU when BP happened, instead of remaining Finnish. I.e. had Finland managed to expand and take territory scripted to belong to Germany when BP fires, these would all have become SU again.

My verdict is that this CORE mod is nice and interesting. It certainly becomes very difficult (too difficult?) for minor nations to grow strong until WW2 starts, but my biggest concern is the weakness of the SU and how easily Germany could roll over SU within less than a year to get BP. That NEVER happens whenever I play Finland in HOI2 DD. (Only happened a few times in the original HOI game).

Oh, and I never figured how Finland was to get 30's aviation technology... perhaps because of the PURCHASE option?

Thanks, looking forward to see 0.30

 

[MateDow]

Hi

An interesting mod. I usually play a minor nation, and especially I like playing Finland and try helping Germany defeat the SU.

A very historical goal.

I installed CORE 0.25 and these are my experiences playing Finland from 1936-autumn 1942. N/N.

First, the game was very slow for a couple of months or so, around March-May 1936. Since then the game has been as quick as regular DD most of the time. (Sometimes it is hanging a bit, but rarely for more than a day or two).

This is a known issue, and the hang up in 1936 has been solved. The fix will be officially released with 0.3, but there are numerous references to the fix on this site if you are comfortable with modifying files yourself.

Second, it was really hard to play Finland with 7/13 IC and starting the game with 12 infantry divisions in addition to a much larger fleet than in regular HOI2 DD. I was considering abaondoning some units to cope, but through changing ministers (+10 IC bonus etc.) and nothing but industrial research the first years I did eventually manage to get on pretty well.

There are plans to change how divisions are represented to make more of the activated by the mobilization events rather than be on the screen from the beginning. This is an ongoing process.

The lack of IC during peacetime is historical and designed to restrict a player to fairly historical growth of the armed forces.

Through luck I got the chance to make Finland a dictatorship in mid 1936, and sometime in 1937 I allied the axis. Very soon after allying Germany I got some events that boosted my IC and manpower (mobilising), so from around mid 1937 I had 15/13 IC, and in 1939 I got the industry tech allowing me to build factories. All in all quite a realistic scenario.

Glad you like this.

The Winter war did not happen, so I invaded Norway. Germany invaded Denmark soon after annexing Poland, but it was Germany that DOW Norway in early 1940 or so (which Finland annexed after buying one transporter from Germany). Germany also took out France very early, and then Yugoslivia more or less around the normal time (march or so 1941). By then I had lined up all my divisions (12, no chance of neither improving Finland's IC nor their number of divisions by 1941) ready to attack Sweden, but to my big surprise Germany DOW SU already in early april 1941! I.e. just days after annexing Yugosloavia and despite having as little as 1-2 divisions in each county bordering the SU.

Damn Germans are always disrupting your plans.

I thus had to reload to my latest save game, 1 march 1941, and during the next month I did what I could to bring back my divisions to Finland to protect her against the SU. I had 10 divisions back when Germany again DOW on the SU in early april 1941, despite its weak position.

I am curious to know why you restarted. It seems like it would have been a more interesting game to try and recover from the poor stratigic situation your ally put you in.

From april 1941 until late 1941 Finland then really struggles to survive. I got the two last divisions back to help defend against the SU, but SU push with about 30 divisions against my 10-12, and at one point I even lose Helsinki, but finally, due to the German advance further south, the battle halts as winter starts and Finland has a handful counties left in the SE of Finland and most of Norway (one division alone protecting Norway, pushed back to Narvik).

Sounds fairly historical to me.

WHAT IS ODD IS THAT WHEN GERMANY ATTACKED SU IN APRIL 1941, THE SU HAD ONLY 120-150 DIVISIONS, AND HAD LESS IC THAN BASE IC! GERMANY HAD 180+ DIVISIONS. 30+ of SU's divisions were bordering Finland, and were the last divisions to be defeated before Germany got BC in september 1942.

AI will always focus more of their forces against a human player rightly knowing that a human opponent is a greater threat than another AI country.

So, why was SU so weak both in IC and especially divisions by spring 1941? Is this standard for CORE 0.25?

I am not as familiar with the Soviet OOB historically, so I can't comment about whether that force level is historical or not. Part of it is probably a result of no Winter War to force expanded unit production on the Soviets.

When BP came, one county of Norway which was Finnish (Finland annexed Norway) became German (it was Finnish but SU controlled it after taking it from Finland). I think this county should have been given back to Finland and not becoming part of Germany when BP happened.

Moreover, which is part of the BP bug, Leningrad, which was taken by my Finnish HQ once Germany had killed its defending divisions, was given away to SU when BP happened, instead of remaining Finnish. I.e. had Finland managed to expand and take territory scripted to belong to Germany when BP fires, these would all have become SU again.

We will have to look at the Bitter Peace event. AFAIK, we are still using the Bitter Peace event which is a part of Vanilla DD.

My verdict is that this CORE mod is nice and interesting. It certainly becomes very difficult (too difficult?) for minor nations to grow strong until WW2 starts...

I am also curious to know why you think that Finland should become a powerful nation. Historically, Finland did not have much industry. They were able to fight off a much larger Soviet army through tactical stupidity on the part of the Soviets and a good defensive fight. The real outcome of the Winter War was never in doubt.

When they joined the war on the side of the Germans, you don't see a massive expansion of their military forces and no expansion of their production.

Minor nations were minor for a reason. They did not have significant capacity to increase the size of their military. Most of them were forced to import the basic implements of war. Finland was fortunate by having a domestic source for small arms, but very limited capacity for larger weapons.

It should be difficult for all nations to expand their military during peacetime. It should be even more difficult for a smaller nation to accomplish. I know a lot pf players want to play a minor nation and have "Brazil take over the world." There were historical reasons why this wasn't possible. Where the goal of CORE is to create a historical simulation, it is going to be difficult to be a powerful minor nation.

...but my biggest concern is the weakness of the SU and how easily Germany could roll over SU within less than a year to get BP. That NEVER happens whenever I play Finland in HOI2 DD. (Only happened a few times in the original HOI game).

We are still striving to find a balance point with the Soviets. There are numerous occasions where the Soviets will roll over the Germans in a year as well. It is going to be difficult to find that balance where the Soviets are powerful enough to withstand the initial German assault, but not be able to just roll across Europe.

Oh, and I never figured how Finland was to get 30's aviation technology... perhaps because of the PURCHASE option?

Thanks, looking forward to see 0.30

Someone who is more familiar with the Air Techs will have to respond to that question. I am not at a computer where I can look it up.

 

[unmerged(63189)]

Go play TRP ;-)

 

[unmerged(54901)]

I am curious to know why you restarted. It seems like it would have been a more interesting game to try and recover from the poor stratigic situation your ally put you in.

With no division in Finland (all 12 were bordering Sweden and most were based in Oslo, preparing for a war against Sweden, 30+ SU divisions would just need a week to march into southern Finland and take Helsinki and all other IC provinces.

Sounds fairly historical to me.

Not in the continuation war 1941-1944 (you probably think of the 1939 winter war). When operation Barbarossa started, Finland had an agreement with Germany about invading SU, and Germany even transported some divisions into Norhern Finland. (This never happens in HOI2 DD or any HOI2 game, i.e. Germany should, when Finland is part of the axis, send some of her divisions to Northern Finland). For the winter war Finland managed to muster 10 divisions, plus some brigades operating on their own, so the total of 11 divisons plus a headquarter is probably about correct. However, many more of these divisions should have been mountaineers rather than regular INF. (Given their excellent skiing and survival under extreme winter conditions. I don't think officers with winter skill or some extra techs for winter-warfare is a sufficient advantage).

When the continuation war started in 1941, the SU was surpised about that Finland now had managed to muster an army of 16 divisions (almost half of Finland's GDP went to armament in 1940), so there should be an event enabling a SIGNIFICANT increase of Finland's army between late 1939 and spring 1941. A lot of supplies and armament came from Germany.

These 16 divisions, plus the German divisions (east of Norway, mostly on guard), relatively easy penetrated deep into Russian territory, beyond the pre-winter war Finland-SU border. This aggression made Sweden and the UK angry, and symbolically the UK declared Finland war on her indepence day 6 December 1941. (Which shows that despite Finland being counted by many as an axis country in the war in 1941-44, it would be more historically correct to make a scenario where Germany has military access, and Finland not being an axis member). Finland could probably have pushed further into the SU, but for political reasons the Finnish offence was stopped and the army took on a defensive position which they held until 1944.

The SU launched a massive attack (largest artillery attack in WW2!) which only haulted and prevented the SU entering Finnish territory due to the Finns receiving armament help from Germany (anti-tank weapons, plus JU-bomber planes under German command) and the change of strategy as a consequence of the allied invasion of Normandy, leading the SU to prioritise a rush for taking Berlin in 1944-45 before the allies.

In short, Finland had 16 divisions plus independent brigades, as well as German divisions on its soil, when operation Barbarossa started, and this army had no problems running over the SU defense lines. That the SU should have as many divisions in defense as 30+ in 1941 is too much.

Germany also put much pressure on Finland to 1) complete the encirclement of Leningrad ( but Finland rejected, knowing that they were to leave next to the SU after WW2 once the war was over) 2) to continue the offensive into SU. BECAUSE GERMANY FAILED TO DEFEAT THE SU IN AUTUMN 1941 FINLAND DID NOT DARE COMPLETING THE ENCIRCLEMENT OF LENINGRAD, AS WELL AS HAULTING HER ADVANCE BEYOND THE OLD FINNISH-SU BORDERS. This is important. A certain German victory was no longer the case, and a superior Finnish situation was put on halt, allowing SU troops to reorganise and leave the defense against Finnish troops to fight the Germans south of Leningrad...

Moreover, in all games where I have played Finland in vanilla HOI2 and HOI2 DD and I have chosen "bring them on!" in the winter war event, the 30+ SU divisions easily run over the Finnish army of 12 men as soon as the winter war starts. Again, I don't think this reflects the relative strength of the two sides, because the SU army lost a minimum of 120.000 men (official minimum losses reported by the SU) with total causalties (including severely wounded and all the men often dying within a year after being wounded) counting somewhere between 200-500.000 men...

Truly did the Finns have no further chances to fight on in February/March 1940, partly due to lack of reserves (available manpower), amunition (lack of suplies) and exhaustion (lack of organisation), relative to the number of men the SU had brought to the frontier by February 1940 (after losing 200.000+ men). As such, the HOI2 game engine is not at all realistic at the moment. Poor offiser skills and harsh weather conditions alone can not explain such losses, so the game must be moderated otherwise. In fact, the tragic outcome of the winter war is a major event in the SU history prior to Barbarossa, and also one of the reasons why Germany chose to attack already early summer 1941 (which was postponed due to delays, so CORE should in truth program Germany to attack early summer 1941 IF Germany is ready, i.e. Germany has the 3 million men stacked along the SU border), and not by summer 1942 as was the common expectancy. And for this tragic event to unfold, the 11 Finnish divisions plus a HQ should perform a lot better against what must have been (I guess now) SU armies counting no less than 200.000 men at the start of the operation and up to 500.000 or more at the end. The same goes for the 16+ Finnish divisions in 1941. They were superior at that time, which has nothing to do with their industrial vs. semi-industrial position. HOI2 must include an event where a significant amount of arms/supplies are given away by Germany in early 1941 (if Finland grants military access to Germany as a Barbarossa preparation, or Finland is axis member), and if Finland gives away Viborg + Sortavalta to SU as consequense of the winter war (either "bring them on" or "give in"), Finland will immediately mobilise more and have an event representing an approx 50% GDP convertion into arms/supplies and setting up 6+ divisions in 1940-41. (Which is by no way possible in CORE even if doing nothing but industrial research 1936-39).

Other events not included in HOI2 DD regarding the Finnish winter war (it only has Sweden sending supplies) is the event that the UK and France intervene against the SU. For your information: In January 1940 (and remember this is before Germany's attack on Norway and Denmark in april 1940, and assuming that the Maginot line will protect France), the French try to send approx 50.000 INF ( so approx 3-5 divisons) to support the Finns against the SU. However, Norway and Sweden say no to allow military access through Narvik. (The idea was to use British transport vessels to Narvik, and thereafter move the French troops by train to Finland). Both Norway and Sweden refused military access due to sticking to their non-interventionalistic policies, and therefore the Finns saw no other option than to surrender. This event was so close to happening that the Finns delayed surrendering by several weeks while negotians between UK/France and Norway/Sweden happened. I think such an event should be included in the game, so that under certain circumstances (% chance of happening) and/or if Norway is already allied (e.g. by German declaration of war prior or during winter war) the allies would have intervened and sent troops to Finland. This would have lead to Finland being on the allied side, Viborg and Sortavalta would have remained Finnish, and there could have been a declaration of war allies/SU February 1940...

AI will always focus more of their forces against a human player rightly knowing that a human opponent is a greater threat than another AI country.

I am not as familiar with the Soviet OOB historically, so I can't comment about whether that force level is historical or not. Part of it is probably a result of no Winter War to force expanded unit production on the Soviets.

In the game I played SU had attacked and annexed the three Baltic countries. So some mobilisation there should have been. I think you are both right and wrong. I remember the Ribentrop agreement said something like "Germany and SU agree to Poland only", and Finland (becoming SU annexed) was part of this agreement. I don't know how the Ribentrop event is programmed in HOI2 DD, but it is this event that makes Germany give up securing Finland's independence against the SU (thus allowing SU to DOW Finland without German intervention, and as said other place here, the allies could not succeed helping Finland due to the war with Germany blocking the Baltic sea transport route and Norway/Sweden rejecting the allies military access).

However, if Finland is allied with the axis, and Finland is human played, I sure see the point with 30+ SU divisions in 1941, but relative to SUs weakness having less divisions than Germany by summer 1941, there should only have been SU divisions in Murmans and a few to protect Leningrad and (if Finland giving in to SU in 1939/40, so SU has Sortavalta + Viborg) a couple divisions in each of these provinces.

We will have to look at the Bitter Peace event. AFAIK, we are still using the Bitter Peace event which is a part of Vanilla DD.

I am also curious to know why you think that Finland should become a powerful nation. Historically, Finland did not have much industry. They were able to fight off a much larger Soviet army through tactical stupidity on the part of the Soviets and a good defensive fight. The real outcome of the Winter War was never in doubt.

When they joined the war on the side of the Germans, you don't see a massive expansion of their military forces and no expansion of their production.

Minor nations were minor for a reason. They did not have significant capacity to increase the size of their military. Most of them were forced to import the basic implements of war. Finland was fortunate by having a domestic source for small arms, but very limited capacity for larger weapons.

See above, I disagree with this. Certainly Finland industrialised large scale after WW2, but they had the manpower and had no problems penetrating SU defenses as far as they wanted in summer and autumn 1941. Lack of manpower (in terms of reserves), ammunition and exhaustion made the Finns not being able to stand up against the Russian armies by February 1940, however, russion losses had been horrendous, and allied support (French divisions) would have ended the winter war with the SU unable to gain a military victory. In my view, talking of HO2 DD, these Finnish divisions should have more mountain divisions, and there should be:

1) An event where the allies try to send forces to Finland (in effect making Finland an ally), and

2) An event in 1940 making Finland mobilise to get the manpower to build several new divisions plus reflecting the enormous focus on armament in 1940 (and also the extra expenditures there were actually in the years close to 1939).

3) An event in early 1941 where Finland does receive lots of supplies and armament from Germany to supply a few divisions should they allow military access (i.e. not axis membership) to Germany.

One important thing about Finland you should not neglect is that Finland had the highest mobilisation rate of all European countries during WW2. Not even Germany had such a high rate, approx. 16% of total population. This certainly means Finland should get a manpower event in early 1940 should they lose the winter war or give away Viborg-Sortavalta.

Any chance you would program any of this into CORE?

 

[Ghost_dk]

the winter war events etc. will be heavily modified once I carry over and rework the chains I made for CORE1 in this regard. I havent started the process yet but will probably beginn it first in the new year and make discussions on the topic available on terranova.dk in the this regard as well once the process starts.

 

[Hagar]

These 16 divisions, plus the German divisions (east of Norway, mostly on guard), relatively easy penetrated deep into Russian territory, beyond the pre-winter war Finland-SU border. This aggression made Sweden and the UK angry, and symbolically the UK declared Finland war on her indepence day 6 December 1941. (Which shows that despite Finland being counted by many as an axis country in the war in 1941-44, it would be more historically correct to make a scenario where Germany has military access, and Finland not being an axis member). Finland could probably have pushed further into the SU, but for political reasons the Finnish offence was stopped and the army took on a defensive position which they held until 1944.

I agree Finland wasn't fully an Axis member for that very reason.

Germany also put much pressure on Finland to 1) complete the encirclement of Leningrad ( but Finland rejected, knowing that they were to leave next to the SU after WW2 once the war was over) 2) to continue the offensive into SU. BECAUSE GERMANY FAILED TO DEFEAT THE SU IN AUTUMN 1941 FINLAND DID NOT DARE COMPLETING THE ENCIRCLEMENT OF LENINGRAD, AS WELL AS HAULTING HER ADVANCE BEYOND THE OLD FINNISH-SU BORDERS. This is important. A certain German victory was no longer the case, and a superior Finnish situation was put on halt, allowing SU troops to reorganise and leave the defense against Finnish troops to fight the Germans south of Leningrad...

... And did allow resupply of Leningrad via Lake Ladoga for starters. It was the Finnish refusal to advance beyond pre-winterwar borders (and more importantly halt any advance towards Leningrad, thus saving the city) that resulted in a lenient Soviet peace offer in 1944.

Moreover, in all games where I have played Finland in vanilla HOI2 and HOI2 DD and I have chosen "bring them on!" in the winter war event, the 30+ SU divisions easily run over the Finnish army of 12 men as soon as the winter war starts. Again, I don't think this reflects the relative strength of the two sides, because the SU army lost a minimum of 120.000 men (official minimum losses reported by the SU) with total causalties (including severely wounded and all the men often dying within a year after being wounded) counting somewhere between 200-500.000 men...

Probably more the horrendous tactics by the Russians than anything else, though the Finns did put up a memorable defence. I'm still in favor of downgrading Soviet capabilities pre-winterwar, which can only overcome after actually winning it, or should the Winter War ahistorically not happen, after the first half year of actual war.
As to Soviet casualties: I've seen numbers ranging up to a million, but we'd probably never know for sure.

Other events not included in HOI2 DD regarding the Finnish winter war (it only has Sweden sending supplies) is the event that the UK and France intervene against the SU. For your information: In January 1940 (and remember this is before Germany's attack on Norway and Denmark in april 1940, and assuming that the Maginot line will protect France), the French try to send approx 50.000 INF ( so approx 3-5 divisons) to support the Finns against the SU. However, Norway and Sweden say no to allow military access through Narvik. (The idea was to use British transport vessels to Narvik, and thereafter move the French troops by train to Finland). Both Norway and Sweden refused military access due to sticking to their non-interventionalistic policies, and therefore the Finns saw no other option than to surrender. This event was so close to happening that the Finns delayed surrendering by several weeks while negotians between UK/France and Norway/Sweden happened. I think such an event should be included in the game, so that under certain circumstances (% chance of happening) and/or if Norway is already allied (e.g. by German declaration of war prior or during winter war) the allies would have intervened and sent troops to Finland. This would have lead to Finland being on the allied side, Viborg and Sortavalta would have remained Finnish, and there could have been a declaration of war allies/SU February 1940...

It's true that the French offer did result in the Finns rejecting Soviet peace offers, and prolonged the conflict. But as I recall it the Allied plan was far from practicable, and would need active support from both Sweden and Norway. Chances for that to happen were practically zero...

 

[Easy-Kill]

I find the SU quite strong in my game. It's mid 41, I had taken Southern Italy and forced Italian surrender event (where Mussolini was the armaments minister for UK puppet Italy AND the leader of the Italian Socialists :rofl: ). I was currently holding in the appenine ridge area with fluidic warfare. I had about 12 British infantry divisions along with 6 mountain divisions and 3 reserve divs there and maybe another 12 Italian inf/res. I had previously destoyed about 20 divisions in southern Italy, but hadalso lost 3 inf, 3 Res and 6 TAC. It was starting to look as if I might have to hastily retreat to Palermo and surrender mainland Italy to the Germans. I also had 5 armoured divisions acting as a quick reaction force that would quickly swat any occupation as soon as singular divisions occupied an area. France decided not to go for Vichy and as such Germany occupies the whole of France.

Then Germany DoWed the SU 'ooooooh happppy daaaaayyyys!'

I then quickly produced 3 Mar and 3 PAR (I already had 3 TRN) this was at a cost of reinforcments for my Italian divisions. I transported my 5 Armoured divisions to sourthern England and I had 8 Mot built through queueing. So there I waited until early 1942, continually checking the SU situation, where Germany had pushed to within sight of Kiev. Unfortunately, the soviets had pushed to Konigsberg and were considering naming it Kaliningrad. The soviets had begun to push the Germans back and it was time to act. Naval supremacy (given to me through a daring 1939 raid which ended in the capture of 3 Territorial Divisions but allowed the RN to sink the major KM battleships) allowed me to launch a naval invasion on Leeuwarden and an airborn assault on Essen. The British armour and motorized divisions were quicly landed along with 3 territorial divisions. British armour pushed through to Berlin, the Kiel and Prague without meeting anything other than the odd infantry Divisions (sitting ducks on the plains of northern Germany). A push through Norhtern Italy towards Munich and Vienna succeeded in linking the two forces.

Currently Germany is split in two, with Koeln acting as the German capital and the Soviet union quickly pushing the German/Axis forces towards my lines. I do not have the numbers to push into and liberate France, so I am using the motorized and parachute divisions to 'fill gaps' whenever the Germans try to breakout over the rhine.

What this tells me is that the SU is not really underpowered. They have done a remarkable job stopping the Germans from partying in Kiev.

 

[Easy-Kill]

Possible SU bug here I assume someone will read this.

Following the above game, I was occupying Berline and the territory down to Prague. I had pushed into northern France recapturing Paris, but not the forests along the Franco-German border, parts of Belgium were still occupied as were most of France. Germany managed to Surround and destroy 2 out of my 5 armoured divisions (yay for AI ). Then the Germany surrenders event fired. All British controlled territory has gone (owned) to Britain, Holland is under British ownership, swathes of northern France are under British ownership (soon to change I guess).

However Erfurt for some reason is under US ownershit(I had not occupied it yet) and vast swathes of Belgium are now under Soviet control Thankfully landlocked but the soviets were no where near belgium so I am wondering why? I have autosave on every month (it takes 20 seconds on my computer) and I have a post surrender save, if it will help with debugging.

 

[Hagar]

Possible SU bug here I assume someone will read this.

Following the above game, I was occupying Berline and the territory down to Prague. I had pushed into northern France recapturing Paris, but not the forests along the Franco-German border, parts of Belgium were still occupied as were most of France. Germany managed to Surround and destroy 2 out of my 5 armoured divisions (yay for AI ). Then the Germany surrenders event fired. All British controlled territory has gone (owned) to Britain, Holland is under British ownership, swathes of northern France are under British ownership (soon to change I guess).

However Erfurt for some reason is under US ownershit(I had not occupied it yet) and vast swathes of Belgium are now under Soviet control Thankfully landlocked but the soviets were no where near belgium so I am wondering why? I have autosave on every month (it takes 20 seconds on my computer) and I have a post surrender save, if it will help with debugging.

That the surrender events (and what comes next) need tweaking is a known issue. I'm certainly interested in the pre- and post-saves though, as it takes playing the whole game to get that far. Can you zip them and upload them into Mantis? If not please PM me and I'll give you my email adress.

 

[Easy-Kill]

That the surrender events (and what comes next) need tweaking is a known issue. I'm certainly interested in the pre- and post-saves though, as it takes playing the whole game to get that far. Can you zip them and upload them into Mantis? If not please PM me and I'll give you my email adress.

I most certainly can, every little helps. A few things though. 1) Im currently about 1000 miles from my computer so it will have to wait until new year. 2) whats mantis? o

 

[Ghost_dk]

mantis is CORE's bug tracking system. All can register there and help in the bug hunting and elimination process. You can register at mantis.terranova.dk.

 

[Easy-Kill]

mantis is CORE's bug tracking system. All can register there and help in the bug hunting and elimination process. You can register at mantis.terranova.dk.

Ahh good stuff. Will do that and upload etc

Have you guys changed the AI much? I have lost 3 armour, 3 inf and 3 reserve due to stupidity/AI.

 

[unmerged(46065)]

Yay for people who know so much about particular parts of history....it's gotta make a historical mod easier to make if you got someone telling you how it should happen, how it could happen, and how it isn't supposed to happen

 

[Hagar]

Yay for people who know so much about particular parts of history....it's gotta make a historical mod easier to make if you got someone telling you how it should happen, how it could happen, and how it isn't supposed to happen

Well in CORE the first option will depict the historical choice, should an event happen. For the rest - try to find out yourself. They had to in real life as well.

 

[Akaki]

Aww... Germans had about 3600 tanks from all over Europe vs about 30000 Soviet Tanks (even if we count only T-34/KV-1/KV-2 they had more than Germans). Germans had 164 divisions in total, while Soviets 17x on border and 2 another series forming (Germans were quite surprised about that). Germans owned SU because of surprise. And now you call 30 german panzer divisions + infantry/mot/mechhistorical? Taking out 15x in-total Soviet divisions? Reaching Urals? And this whole nonsence Bitter Peacy thingy? The whole idea of peace based on Hitler's surreal plan to reach A-A line?
Thank's, I'll play vanilla.

Oh, not to mention that half of Wehrmacht was dragged by horses. And now it appears that everyone peacefully follows german propaganda showing Zee Panzers on every poster, on every ocasion. But who cares? Germans could conquer the world, construct A-bomb, maybe even an UFO?

 

[Drake]

Aww... Germans had about 3600 tanks from all over Europe vs about 30000 Soviet Tanks (even if we count only T-34/KV-1/KV-2 they had more than Germans). Germans had 164 divisions in total, while Soviets 17x on border and 2 another series forming (Germans were quite surprised about that). Germans owned SU because of surprise.

Surprise was a part, but in the end a small part. Other issues were far more important.
Air superiority, for example. Luftwaffe was always outnumbered, but the quality of planes and pilots and especially the superiority in communication was enough to keep air superiority and support the ground forces - it made a major difference.
The Soviets had a lot of tanks - outproduced Germany every year of the war, too - but because they lacked radio they were a lot worse off, even if superior in armor/gun.
Then there are doctrine, the purges, and other issues, too much to list all of them here.
All of them contributed to the near defeat.

And now you call 30 german panzer divisions + infantry/mot/mech historical? Taking out 15x in-total Soviet divisions? Reaching Urals? And this whole nonsence Bitter Peacy thingy? The whole idea of peace based on Hitler's surreal plan to reach A-A line?
Thank's, I'll play vanilla.

Uhm, you know that the Bitter Peace is from vanilla, right? It's no CORE idea. Not sure if I agree with it, but honestly, if Germany got that far, chances are they can't be stopped anyway. Not with the supply system as it is.

I haven't played Germany in a while, but I can't remember seeing 30 armor divs in 41... historically Germany had 19 tank and 15 motorized divs (+118 Inf for 152 total) concentrated against the Soviets - so if you're willing to do it with less infantry, you can have more tanks... HOI2 does not provide us with an economic system that allows historic limits on tank production. If a play is willing to trade 2-3 Inf for another Armor, then he can.
The combat system in HOI2 is also ill suited to model the reason Germany didn't win - getting supplies and reinforcements to the front. That historically was a major problem, perhaps the most important reason why Germany lost, but the game engine does not offer a way to simulate that. The whole supply sistem has been simplyfied into uselessness, and that makes many historically impossible options (like Sealion or reaching the Urals) possible and likely to succeed. Again, nothing CORE can really do about that.

There were historically 172 Soviet divisions on the front, but according to Glantz most of those were at half strength of less. So if the Soviets have 150 full strength divisions at the front instead, that would mean that they actually had 70% more forces deployed than historically. Since historically half the existing forces were deployed against Germany, the difference isn't very large. If you read history books about the huge number of divs used by both Germany and the USSR, keep in mind that those were almost always way understrength and may never have been at full strength. Another thing that can't be simulated in the game.

Oh, not to mention that half of Wehrmacht was dragged by horses. And now it appears that everyone peacefully follows german propaganda showing Zee Panzers on every poster, on every ocasion. But who cares? Germans could conquer the world, construct A-bomb, maybe even an UFO?

Actually I believe that far more than half the Wehrmacht were dragged by horses. I don't have figures handy, but it might be that half the Wehrmacht had only horses and no trucks. It's pretty much impossible to force the issue, though. Like with tanks, the economic system does not allow such specific limitations. Motorized Infantry is already some 1000 IC-days more expensive and consumes twice as many supplies - which IIRC is more signifficant than vanilla. The only thing I can think of is cutting the available oil, but even that wouldn't be very effective.
It might not be mentioned, but 'normal Inf' division means that it uses horses instead of trucks...