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I want Vic3 if only for a reduction to the micromanaging. I get that it's a game of economic and population management, but I could stand to part with the "wait for all your factories to upgrade" and "move all your troops to the right place" games. (worked on the latter a bit with rally points, but troop management seems a lot more streamlined in EU4 and CK2.) Going back to Vic2 from EU4 recently had a lot of frustrations.
 
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I want Vic3 if only for a reduction to the micromanaging. I get that it's a game of economic and population management, but I could stand to part with the "wait for all your factories to upgrade" and "move all your troops to the right place" games. (worked on the latter a bit with rally points, but troop management seems a lot more streamlined in EU4 and CK2.) Going back to Vic2 from EU4 recently had a lot of frustrations.
Troop management? I seriously don't get it. Please elaborate whilst I work on walking whilst chewing gum.:eek:
 
One issue with recruting troops in Victoria 2, in multiplayer for instance, is the lack of a macrobuilder like in EU4, adding that would to me be a significant improvement.
 
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Some sort of autoinvestment into upgrading factories would be welcome. It is of course not trivial, as not all factories should be upgraded all the time, and the criteria can be complex.

The influence game needs to be reworked. Right now it is boring micromanagement, and it is too abstract for it to be interesting in its own right. It needs to be more connected to other game mechanics. For instance, the way they improved trade from euiii to euiv was to connect it more to the game world by tying it closer to military map control. I don't have any concrete ideas about it right now though.
 
Some sort of autoinvestment into upgrading factories would be welcome. It is of course not trivial, as not all factories should be upgraded all the time, and the criteria can be complex.

The influence game needs to be reworked. Right now it is boring micromanagement, and it is too abstract for it to be interesting in its own right. It needs to be more connected to other game mechanics. For instance, the way they improved trade from euiii to euiv was to connect it more to the game world by tying it closer to military map control. I don't have any concrete ideas about it right now though.
Spheres have quite an interest in the game but is sure is too abstract to really be useful to new players. It would be nice to be able to upgrade all naval bases once you have a new tech. Searching the world for all the islands where you built one is boring
 
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Spheres have quite an interest in the game but is sure is too abstract to really be useful to new players. It would be nice to be able to upgrade all naval bases once you have a new tech. Searching the world for all the islands where you built one is boring

I agree that spheres are useful once they are established. It is just the influence game itself - where one channels influence points into states and ban each other and such - that becomes a tedious minigame that is almost separated from the other gameplay (except for some modifiers based on adjacency, relations and investments).
 
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I agree that spheres are useful once they are established. It is just the influence game itself - where one channels influence points into states and ban each other and such - that becomes a tedious minigame that is almost separated from the other gameplay (except for some modifiers based on adjacency, relations and investments).
I think that it fits to the timeframe though and how things were back then. Also, to me, when I win one of those sphere battles I'm really satisfied. That, the economics, the population and some other things are the core aspects of the game, although, as I said previously in this thread, it could be improved on further.
 
I think that it fits to the timeframe though and how things were back then. Also, to me, when I win one of those sphere battles I'm really satisfied. That, the economics, the population and some other things are the core aspects of the game, although, as I said previously in this thread, it could be improved on further.

I'm not saying it should be removed either, just that it should be improved to make it more interesting in-it-self rather than just as a means to an end. And also make it factor into other decisions you make (such as naval control, troop stationing, control over railroads).

Think about reading about things like The Great Game ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game ) and compare it to the system that is in Victoria 2 currently.
 
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I'm not saying it should be removed either, just that it should be improved to make it more interesting in-it-self rather than just as a means to an end.

Think about reading about things like The Great Game ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game ) and compare it to the system that is in Victoria 2 currently.
I did not say that it could not be improved, what I meant was that simplifying it wont help much.
 
Should there be a Vic3? Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

That being said, what would I want in Vic3?

A solution to LGEM (or the liquidity crisis as Naselus calls it):

Fair enough.

But the problem with LGEM (and I will continue to use that term until an economist can give me a better one that covers all of the issues we see in the late game) is that it isn't just one thing. That's the fundamental misunderstanding many players have about the economy of the late game. If it was just one thing, we could probably whip up a quick mod and :BOOM: problem solved. But since it's not just one thing, it defies any kind of simple solution.

It's also why flexibility with government economic policy is really helpful. You need to be able to switch gears from LF to state capitalism to interventionism as needed. But if you can get your ducks in a row, LF can be a boon in the late game (as long as you can still go in an correct things when necessary, like when you conquer 4 states from Germany and need to sort their factories out).

The problems I see in the late game that contribute to malaise (it's not a Depression in most cases, or even a recession in the strictest sense, I don't think) are as follows.

1) Insufficient currency in existence: There are literally not enough pounds sterling in existence. This can be mitigated by key conquests and colonization, but it cannot be entirely solved through in-game actions. It also interacts with problem #2.

2) Insufficient currency in circulation: The pounds in existence tend to pool in the national banks. This wouldn't necessarily be a problem in real life, since the banks would be loaning that money out to people who need it (like capitalists who need to invest in new projects), but in Vic2, only governments can get loans. This means that capitalists are screwed in the early game for no good reason (thus demonstrating the efficacy of state capitalism), and the money tends to sit there if governments are in the black. The national bank gets fatter and fatter, until there are too many goods chasing too few pounds. This problem can be partially solved by running your own government on a deficit (which means you can also lower taxes to zero to help POPs), but you can't control what other governments do. And, because of weird quirks in the bankruptcy system (like going bankrupt for no reason), it is dangerous even when you have 50 million pounds in the national bank and a healthy economy.

3) Insufficient rubber: Rubber is the limiting factor for several late game luxuries. Unless you manage to conquer hordes of the stuff and get your tech levels high, you end up being unable to expand a very lucrative part of the economy because the resources aren't there. And it can be hard to get people to move to empty rubber provinces, since many of them are in areas POPs don't want to move to. In this case, you may not be able to shift labor from overproduced industries to underproduced ones. The good news is that you can plan your conquests to get around this problem.

4) Wars and occupations: If a Great War breaks out, and lots provinces are occupied, it can kill the economy. If 4 million craftsmen are unemployed AND their factories are all dead, it may be impossible to even build up to pre-war levels before the end of the game. (It's far worse than the devastation after WWII sometimes.) The fact that factories go from level 50 to level 1 when they go bankrupt ensures that economic damage is severe when provinces are occupied. Ditto all of this for revolutions. Because it takes 12-24 months to upgrade 1 factory to the next level, there may be no possible recovery to be had if things go bad in some places.

5) High taxes and high subsidies in AI nations: You, as the player, can't control the economic destiny of other countries directly. This means that if they are killing POP demand through excessive taxes, you can't directly alleviate this problem short of conquest (which invokes problem #4). The AI nations will run up taxes, but then turn around and subsidize their own failing industries. This leads to a weird cycle of overproduction and underconsumption that hurts the economy of the world. If 150 million British POPs are not buying clothes, but Britain is subsidizing their regular clothes factories, good luck making money in that area of the economy.

6) RGOs are finite, but POPs won't move around: Yes, POPs do migrate and immigrate. But they move around a lot slower than the economy would otherwise demand. You end up in several cases where RGOs end up being full, but the POPs won't move to empty areas (in appreciable amounts) because of how colonial states function. Ghandi won't go to South Africa to find work and learn how to run a civil disobedience campaign. This tends to hurt AI nations more than player nations, but everyone is hurt by it. I understand why RGOs are finite and why POPs won't move en masse, but this issue does cause economic problems in the late game (especially for players who get out of hand with healthcare reforms).

7) Factories take too long to build in the late game: I'm not the only one who has seen population growth literally out pace the speed of factory construction. I'm not talking about regions decimated by war. Areas I've held since the beginning of the game end up with POPs growing faster than factories complete. This is not a case of overproduction, since there is still demand for these factories (the factories are profitable and the capitalists are spamming them as fast as I can). A simple economic tech that speeds up factory construction would solve this problem nicely.

There are some other issues I am probably leaving out. But the larger point here is that there is no uniform problem or solution to LGEM, and that flexibility in economic policy is important. Knowing when to run LF, and when to fix problems with state capitalism (and what problems can actually be fixed by state capitalism) is part of playing the game.
 
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Should there be a Vic3? Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

That being said, what would I want in Vic3?

A solution to LGEM (or the liquidity crisis as Naselus calls it):

Aye, what Vicky really needs is a simple and hands-off model of money, as well as a substitution effect and the impact of goods being sensibly proportional. If, from a players' perspective, money supply didn't require any more hands-on management than 'keep supply increasing at a steady rate, hold back supply, increase supply', that would deal with the liquidity issue. Most of the hard work would be done under the hood without the need for player intervention.
 
Aye, what Vicky really needs is a simple and hands-off model of money, as well as a substitution effect and the impact of goods being sensibly proportional. If, from a players' perspective, money supply didn't require any more hands-on management than 'keep supply increasing at a steady rate, hold back supply, increase supply', that would deal with the liquidity issue. Most of the hard work would be done under the hood without the need for player intervention.

Naselus said something similar, I think. (Merely injecting extra money into the economy isn't the solution; there needs to be other things going on under the hood.)
 
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Naselus said something similar, I think. (Merely injecting extra money into the economy isn't the solution; there needs to be other things going on under the hood.)

Aye, his points that you quote are excellent. I think Vicky 2 lays some really good foundations, and had it been built under the CK2/EU4 model, could have evolved to work around its issues, but as it is, it's left with an economy that models some things well and doesn't model other things (that need to be modelled for it to work, rather than things that don't need to be modelled) at all. If they can come up with a way for the in-game economy to work (and be based on price rather than prestige in terms of who gets to access goods, as well), then the rest of the game could really shine.
 
Victoria is my favorite series because of its detail economic and demographic simulation. Vicky 2's models had quite a few flaws which I think Paradox can definitely fix with all the experience they've gained and the additional processing power available. I really hope it is on the table soon.