WAD: Paratroopers get eaten alive inside of planes

[unmerged(4436)]

Paratroopers get eaten alive inside of planes

Yeah this might be a wad but its pretty stupid. It takes a long time for paras to get enough org to be able to drop them, so you end up forgetting about them. The problem is that while they are in the transports, they are considered out of supply. This sucks really bad. If you dont drop your paras as soon as they have full org, then they will start to take damage. Most of the time when I remember to check my paras, they are at about 70% strength. Just because the are "loaded in the airplanes" doesnt mean they are litterally loaded in the planes. They should still be able to get supplies right up till the moment they take off.

 

[unmerged(4219)]

When you move a transport plane and rebase it, it will lose most of its org. You must wait for it to get up to 100% before you can drop the paras that are already inside.

So unless you plan on dropping your paras within a very short distance of where you originally deployed them and loaded them, they will be forced to sit in the transports and starve. The only way to prevent this is to deploy them somewhere close to where you want to attack, or to get the advanced transport planes with super long ranges.

Perhaps transport planes shouldn't be given the org penalty for rebasing? Was this considered before?

 

[unmerged(13880)]

A thought

Could the ability to unload carried troops regardless of transport plane organisation be restored, if balanced by applying the organisation penalty for rebasing air units to any troops they carry at the time?

 

[Ghost_dk]

Could the ability to unload carried troops regardless of transport plane organisation be restored, if balanced by applying the organisation penalty for rebasing air units to any troops they carry at the time?

I think that it has been said quite clearly from the developers that no further changes will be made to the paratroopers. And that was in a tone indicating a lot of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'s even if it wasn't in the text so stop the moaning and play and have fun instead. Anything else is a big waste of quality HOI time

Ghost_dk

 

[unmerged(3221)]

IGNORE this response. Everything I said is 100% true in 1.06.

When you move a transport plane and rebase it, it will lose most of its org. You must wait for it to get up to 100% before you can drop the paras that are already inside.

So unless you plan on dropping your paras within a very short distance of where you originally deployed them and loaded them, they will be forced to sit in the transports and starve. The only way to prevent this is to deploy them somewhere close to where you want to attack, or to get the advanced transport planes with super long ranges.

Your method involves waiting two weeks for your air transport units to get back to full org before you can do anything with the paratroopers on board. During that time your paratroopers lose org and strength? Why would you want to do that?

The 1.06 paradrop rules are workable and prevent exploits. They are not perfect, but they work, and they aren't going to be changed.

If someone tried to explain all the possibilities in a paratrooper FAQ, then both your and my methods could be contrasted. I apologize for being way too strong in my response. Sorry.

 

[unmerged(4436)]

Your method involves waiting two weeks for your air transport units to get back to full org before you can do anything with the paratroopers on board. During that time your paratroopers lose org and strength? Why would you want to do that?

The 1.06 paradrop rules are workable and prevent exploits. They are not perfect, but they work, and they aren't going to be changed.

If someone tried to explain all the possibilities in a paratrooper FAQ, then both your and my methods could be contrasted. I apologize for being way too strong in my response. Sorry.

Ok lets compare our two methods. Say you have a paratrooper sitting in Berlin with full org and you want to drop him on Malta.

My method is to immediately put him on a plane and fly him to Rome and rebase the transport there. Then wait for it to get to full org, and then drop the para off on Malta. Malta is way too far from Berlin to do it in one trip so you will have to rebase. While your waiting in Rome to get full org your paratroopers will take damage. So my method will take maybe a week from start to finish. About 7 hours or so of flight time, and about 6 days of waiting for your org to regain.

Now im not 100% sure what your method is, but it sounds like you would walk the paratroopers all the way from Berlin to Rome, and then immediately load them on a transport and drop them on Malta as soon as you got there. Sure your guys would not be damaged before the attack, but your attack would also take at LEAST 2 weeks longer then mine. Its a long walk to get from Berlin to Rome.

If time does not matter then your way is better (assuming I understand your method correctly, please correct me if im wrong).
If time is a big factor, then my way is better.

Both ways however, are NOT realistic.

 

[Choctaws Coach]

This "paratroopers getting eaten inside the planes" deal really has become a dead horse but I just want to make sure everyone is clear on this (for one thing, I added a post complaining about this same issue before I completely understood it, and for another because, guys, if you aren't using paratroopers, you're really missing out -- lots of fun to be had, here, you bet ).

1. Put the paratrooper and the transport in the same provience
2. Select the paratrooper and right click on the provience you are standing in
3. A box will pop up asking if you want to load him in the plane. Click yes
4. Move transport to a friendly airbase within range of the provience you want to attack
5. Now you have to wait until the transports get back to full org. This is the part that sucks because your paratroopers will be starving to death as you wait.
6. CTRL Right click on the provience you want to attack
7. Use the pulldown menu and change it from the default "tactical bombing" to "paradrop"
8. The transport will then fly over to the target provience, drop the paratroopers off, and fly home.

Brock, you said in step 5 above that "you have to wait until the transports get back to full org" ... now, this IS a true statement, but it's true only if you've moved the transport to another friendly province after loading the paras in it (your step 4 above). Step 4 is the real problem here.

If you'll just change this strategy just a bit it'll work ... alter step 1 to move the transport and paras seperately to the same staging area province within range of the province you want to attack and then wait for the transport org to get back to max (and wait for the para org to top off, too, if they've been walking, unless you don't mind dropping low org troops) ... you'd also need to remove step 4, because you're not going to "move" the transport to another province after loading, and step 5, because you're not going to WAIT after loading, either ... this is because if the planes and paras are at full org before loading then after loading the paras both the planes and paras are still at full org and you can then go do a paradrop mission immediately, obviously w/o loss of org/str for the paras while they're "starving on the plane". :rofl: I'm not laughing at you, Brock, but with you -- it happened to me, too, remember? o

Maybe then your "paras in 1.06" strat would look like this:

1. Seperately move the paratrooper and the transport to the same province within range of the province you want to attack and then wait until the org of the transport has completely recovered (waiting until the para org recovers is optional but recommended)
2. Select the paratrooper and right click on the province you are standing in
3. A box will pop up asking if you want to load him in the plane. Click yes
4. CTRL Right click on the provience you want to attack
5. Use the pulldown menu and change it from the default "tactical bombing" to "paradrop"
6. The transport will then fly over to the target province, drop the paratroopers off, and fly home.

From what little I know of paratroopers (history degree, bit of a n00b WWII buff, and reading/watching Band of Brothers quite a number of times) they were transported around by ship, truck, and feet, just like normal infantry -- until the actual paradrop mission was to take place. So, loading paras in the transport and moving the transport w/ paras to another friendly province before then finally having the transport take off and execute the paradrop mission wouldn't make much sense to me even if the game did allow it. I mean, logistics and costs aside, there was WAY too much preparation for a jump (packing on all of that equipment, etc) to use the paras and transports as kind of a taxi service prior to a jump, and AFAIK those planes and, in fact, the entire paratrooper strategy, were geared to do this deal in only one way ... get everybody in the same spot, get everybody ready for the drop, and then quickly go do it. I suppose there could very well be exceptions to this in WWII history that I'm not aware of, but that's the way I've understood it ...

IIRC one of the Easy Company men said in the Band of Brothers video that it was years after WWII was over before he actually landed INSIDE a plane.

In fact, IMO the way 1.06 models paratroopers is almost exactly right ... the plane and paras have to be organized ... then they can do a drop mission ... then some time has to pass before the planes and paras (or a new group of paras) are ready for another paradrop.

Just my thoughts ... now that I understand them I do like the paratroopers in 1.06 and use them often. Now if I can just get this whole negative supplies bug thing resolved ... :rofl:

 

[unmerged(4219)]

Perhaps the FAQ should be updated

 

[Soapy Frog]

Can you drop paras on a freindly province? If so then you can load up the trasnport, drop the paras in the province you want to rebase to, then rebase the transports. Now your para and transport are where you want them to be, and the paras wont slowly die because they are loaded on the planes.

 

[unmerged(4436)]

This "paratroopers getting eaten inside the planes" deal really has become a dead horse but I just want to make sure everyone is clear on this (for one thing, I added a post complaining about this same issue before I completely understood it, and for another because, guys, if you aren't using paratroopers, you're really missing out -- lots of fun to be had, here, you bet ).



Brock, you said in step 5 above that "you have to wait until the transports get back to full org" ... now, this IS a true statement, but it's true only if you've moved the transport to another friendly province after loading the paras in it (your step 4 above). Step 4 is the real problem here.

If you'll just change this strategy just a bit it'll work ... alter step 1 to move the transport and paras seperately to the same staging area province within range of the province you want to attack and then wait for the transport org to get back to max (and wait for the para org to top off, too, if they've been walking, unless you don't mind dropping low org troops) ... you'd also need to remove step 4, because you're not going to "move" the transport to another province after loading, and step 5, because you're not going to WAIT after loading, either ... this is because if the planes and paras are at full org before loading then after loading the paras both the planes and paras are still at full org and you can then go do a paradrop mission immediately, obviously w/o loss of org/str for the paras while they're "starving on the plane". :rofl: I'm not laughing at you, Brock, but with you -- it happened to me, too, remember? o

Maybe then your "paras in 1.06" strat would look like this:

1. Seperately move the paratrooper and the transport to the same province within range of the province you want to attack and then wait until the org of the transport has completely recovered (waiting until the para org recovers is optional but recommended)
2. Select the paratrooper and right click on the province you are standing in
3. A box will pop up asking if you want to load him in the plane. Click yes
4. CTRL Right click on the provience you want to attack
5. Use the pulldown menu and change it from the default "tactical bombing" to "paradrop"
6. The transport will then fly over to the target province, drop the paratroopers off, and fly home.

From what little I know of paratroopers (history degree, bit of a n00b WWII buff, and reading/watching Band of Brothers quite a number of times) they were transported around by ship, truck, and feet, just like normal infantry -- until the actual paradrop mission was to take place. So, loading paras in the transport and moving the transport w/ paras to another friendly province before then finally having the transport take off and execute the paradrop mission wouldn't make much sense to me even if the game did allow it. I mean, logistics and costs aside, there was WAY too much preparation for a jump (packing on all of that equipment, etc) to use the paras and transports as kind of a taxi service prior to a jump, and AFAIK those planes and, in fact, the entire paratrooper strategy, were geared to do this deal in only one way ... get everybody in the same spot, get everybody ready for the drop, and then quickly go do it. I suppose there could very well be exceptions to this in WWII history that I'm not aware of, but that's the way I've understood it ...

IIRC one of the Easy Company men said in the Band of Brothers video that it was years after WWII was over before he actually landed INSIDE a plane.

In fact, IMO the way 1.06 models paratroopers is almost exactly right ... the plane and paras have to be organized ... then they can do a drop mission ... then some time has to pass before the planes and paras (or a new group of paras) are ready for another paradrop.

Just my thoughts ... now that I understand them I do like the paratroopers in 1.06 and use them often. Now if I can just get this whole negative supplies bug thing resolved ... :rofl:

Ok lets first ask ourselves what the point of paratroopers are in this game.

First we have to realize that regular generic infantry are MUCH MUCH MUCH better then paratroopers and should be used instead of paras whenever possible. You would have to be pretty desperate to use your paratroopers to attack the enemy's main troops on the front lines.

So why even use the paratroopers?

Simple:
1. They are FAST FAST FAST. They can be deployed just about anywhere as quick reinforcements to help tip a close battle in your favor.
2. They can be used to surprise the enemy and seize key provinces that he has accidentally left undefended. (an under-defended Stalingrad would be a great example)
3. They can be used to take islands and beaches that are in hostile waters, where sea transports would have a real danger of being sunk.
4. They can be used to take Far away provinces that would take far too long to send in ground based troops. (taking those last victory points in the middle of the Congo so that you can fully annex Belgium, is a good example)

Your method of using paratroopers completely negates #1 on my list. If you have to physically walk your paratroopers to within transport range then any speed bonus they had is long gone.

Your method of using paratroopers severely hurts (although it doesn’t actually negate) #2 on the list. When an enemy province like Stalingrad is under-defended speed is VERY important. Every day that passes increases the chance of the enemy noticing his mistake and fixing it.

Your method works just fine with #3 and #4. It just tacks on a week or 2 to the total time needed.


So the choice is really: Speed and starved paratroopers, or no speed and full strength paratroopers.

Sometimes one way is better, sometimes the other way is better.

Also, Your way does get better and better with each new model of transport plane that is researched. Longer range transports make rebasing less and less important.

 

[Mithel]

Brock, I've never used paratroopers like you describe, it's simply not realistic it's an "exploit" and shouldn't work.

I use them much like Choctaws Coach described. Although I've been known to use the transports as transports so as to get my paratroops where they are needed without having to have them march the entire distance.

A real paradrop operation took a lot of time to plan and it took a lot of time to load the men onto the aircraft. Paratroopers shouldn't be some ultra modern science fiction exploit to zap your enemy when they do something stupid.

I have never had a problem with paratroopers starving while loaded. And I find paratroopers extremely useful and fun (exactly as they are implemented currently). While paratroop "divisions" may be weaker than a normal division they are useful for attacking front line provinces (they provide the advantage of the attacking from one more direction bonus). Not to mention they give you that extra bit of punch pretty much anywhere along the front line you might choose to launch a surprise attack.

Naturally they are great for taking islands and other remote locations (like securing an undefended beach before doing an amphibious assault).

 

[Soapy Frog]

I would agree that as implemented paratroopers require a little more long-range planning for effective use, and I think that this is definitely a good thing! Airborne operations could not be launched at the drop of a hat, they were probably some of the most planning/logistic intensive undertakings during the war.

 

[Ghost_dk]

I would agree that as implemented paratroopers require a little more long-range planning for effective use, and I think that this is definitely a good thing! Airborne operations could not be launched at the drop of a hat, they were probably some of the most planning/logistic intensive undertakings during the war.

I agree. Usually the parts of the different operations involving paratroopers were planned months in advance. fx:

1) In preperation of Operation Gelb, the attack on Holland/Belgium the Germans build a live size copy of Eben Emal fortress to practice on.

Im sure there are other examples similar to that for all nations using paras in ww2.

Ghost_dk

 

[Choctaws Coach]

Can you drop paras on a freindly province? If so then you can load up the trasnport, drop the paras in the province you want to rebase to, then rebase the transports. Now your para and transport are where you want them to be, and the paras wont slowly die because they are loaded on the planes.

"Soapy Frog?" ROTFL ... just noticed that ... cool name dewd ...

Brock, Soapy here has your answer. Just do this ... "paradrop" the paras wherever you want to "rebase" to, then "move" the transport to that same province, then wait for the transport org to rebuild, then load and execute the drop mission. That way the paras don't have to "walk" (which is more than a little unrealistic -- of course they'd travel by train or at least truck :rofl: ) ... it's the same fundamental strategy as yours except during the wait (for the transport org to regen) the paras aren't out of supply for days on end, and getting vewy vewy hungwy, sitting on the benches in their C-47s w/ their chutes on their backs and nothing to eat except perhaps the Mae West life preservers they strapped on in the marshalling area when they boarded the planes. Dude, THAT'S what's happening ... the planes aren't eating them ... they're eating ... egad, I can't even type it rotfl ...

You might not like the waiting part because you see the paratrooper div's main strength as reaction speed ... but I'd submit that they CAN be every bit as fast as you want so long as the range is reasonable and you keep the paras and their transports ready to go (org topped off). To me, a paradrop mission outside the range of the transports just isn't reasonable given that this game tries so hard to be realistic ... the very *range* attribute of the transport is what makes this a WAD.

A paradrop mission leaving from say Southampton and dropping on an undefended Stalingrad, WAY behind enemy lines, just isn't very reasonable to my mind, and I don't think (somebody correct me plz if I'm wrong here) that would have even been considered during WWII. Most everything I've seen implies that WWII paras were used to a) flank the enemy lines or b) get immediately (not far) behind the enemy lines. HoI doesn't do "fronts" very well (a front in the game being an entire "province" which is without a doubt in my mind the most unrealistic thing about the game) but given the game's inherent limitations I think I still see the historical uses as being the best way to use paras (in addition to, of course, the previously mentioned "taking an island out in the middle of nowhere" and "creating a beachhead" uses).

As someone also mentioned earlier the paras give the attack from more than one side bonus, and they definitely will cut off enemy supply and add to the encirclement/envelopment of enemy troops, for instance, so drop 'em on the flank or behind the enemy-controlled province you're about to attack and then send 'em all in together. Hoo-raa ....

I'd second what several people have said about historical WWII paradrop missions taking a ton of planning and preparation and not being set to go on a hair-trigger ... in fact, IIRC several of the 101st's missions in Europe were scrubbed entirely BECAUSE they took so long to plan and prepare for that the ground troops overran the drop zone in the meantime (not that this was too unpopular with those who had already "seen the elephant", I'm sure -- "and there was much rejoicing" lol) ...

I'd be very interested to hear from someone who could identify and give us some details about the WWII airborne assault, by any nation, with the greatest range from takeoff to drop zone. From what I can tell looking at maps Operation Market Garden for the 101st (just under 200 miles? from Membury -- which is east of Southampton -- to an area outside of Eindhoven) was a greater distance for the paradrop than was D-Day for the 101st (approx 60 - 70 miles? from Upottery to Utah Beach in Normandy) but were there other airborne missions that had a much greater range than either of these?

 

[unmerged(3221)]

I either walk, naval transport, or strategically redeploy my paratroopers. Depends upon what is quickest.

But why would you use an example of German paratroopers dropping from Italy onto Malta? And why would you assume that I would walk the para for months to set this up?

Is Italy your ally or do you own or control those Italian provinces? You didn't mention that at all. That makes it awful hard to respond to your strange example because you did not include some very elementary information.

Also the rebasing of your air transports reduces them to half org which takes around 2 weeks to recover to full org (not one week). Air transport org is 30+, meaning a rebasing cuts it to 15, which recovers 1 org per day. Organization rises from zero to full in a month, so loss of 1/2 org means waiting 2 weeks. So your para are rotting for two weeks with your method.

If I wanted to take Malta, I would do it from German held territory such as Greece. I would probably strategically redeploy the paratroopers to my territory within para dropping range (600+ km) of Malta. I would probably have to rebase my air transports at least once if not twice to get the range right. Or I could strategically redeploy the air transports from say deep within Russia.

Entire process is three weeks, in other words, planning ahead. And my para drop at full strength and full org.

 

[unmerged(3221)]

Brock was correct in remembering that air transports regain full org in about 6 days after a friendly territory rebasing. My estimate that it would take about 2 weeks for air units to recover to full org was incorrect.

Test method used was to load para into an air transport, rebase the air transports, and wait to see when the paratroopers on board could be dropped. The air transport org maximum was 30 at that time (using the two air transports Germany has in the 1936 scenario). I also used a fighter escort that had a maximum org of 60 at that time in my air transport group/stack. The two different kinds of air units have different rates of organizational recovery which contributed to my misestimate of when the air transport group gets back to full org. I used several F11 screenshots during a relatively quiet period to capture this data.

The air transports went from half org (15) after a rebasing to full org (30) after just 6 days. The fighter escort with them, however, only recovered to 49 out of 60 org and took about 9.5 days total to recover to full org. The organization percent gain per day for the air transports was about 8.33% while for the escort fighter it was about 5.27% per day. The air transport org recovery rate of 8.33% per day (basis is 100 percent) was confirmed after the paratroopers were dropped as the air transports went from zero org on March 8 to full org on March 20 (a twelve day period). Whether higher org air transports would require more org recovery time is unknown.

During the six day period that the paratroopers were trapped on board the air transports due to the rebasing, they lost 7 strength (from 100 to 93) and 8 org (from the then maximum 92 org to 84). Using this method for paradrops missions into hostile territory (my test was a 'friendly' air drop via a rebasing) would mean that a paratrooper div goes into combat with a maximum strength of 93 or less and with less org if the paradrop mission is done immediately. Paradrop missions can also be intercepted when enemy planes of any kind are in the flight path, meaning that the air transports return to base and usually have to recover some organization before another paradrop mission could be attempted, and this would result in further deterioration of onboard paratroopers.

The other danger for using this method would be if one had to substantially delay the paradrop mission or if one forgot about this odd situation while concentrating on other matters. A test of 'forgetting' had the paradrop die in 100 days while onboard the air transport (based in an owned province with a land connection to the capital). The strength loss was always one per day with the strength loss occuring at midnight. Two parachute divisions that had different org were used in the test (one was in battle and had been reinforced), but the strength loss was consistent despite the initial org difference.

The conventional paradrop method would be to get the air transport within paradrop range of the target province. The paratrooper divisions would then either be marched, naval transported, or strategically redeployed into the air transport's base province. If the para divisions are strategically redeployed, they should take about 2 weeks (actually 12.5 days) to recover from half org to full. Counting the one week strategic redeployment waiting period, it would take about 3 weeks for the paradrop mission to be attempted if the air transports have to be rebased to be within paradrop range and if the paratroopers are strategically rebased. The para divisions are only loaded when the paradrop mission has a green light to proceed, so there is no loss of strength or org while waiting.

The paradrop mission via rebasing can be a quicker though slightly riskier way to execute a paradrop mission to exploit an opening than the more conventional method of moving land divisions by conventional methods (marching, naval transportation, or strategic redeployment). The risk of the rebased paradrop method is that the paratroopers go into any combat slightly understrength and slightly under less than full org.

 

[unmerged(3221)]

Additonal info re saved game: not a problem

I had a battered air transport wht a para on it that I could not fly for a paradrop because it's flight path always took it too near an enemy fighter stack. So I reinforced it and flew it somewhere else with one para on board. I forget about it for a few gamedays and saved the game.

When I reopened the game I did not see that para in the ledger. I thought I lost it. The air transport said it had a para on board, but it does not show what it was transporting (unlike a naval transport). When the air transport finally got back to full org, I could drop the para and it survived.

So I had no problem with having a para loaded into an air transport when I reloaded the saved game the next day. Playing standard plain vanilla 1.06