Wei Dynasty

[siafu]

Heck you're never gonna see spelling reform in english but let's not forget most of the population couldn't read anyway so it's not really the same, so if you have a state without much of an educated literate elite then it might be possible (and even then you have the case of hangul, though in korea chinese script wasn't suited to korean) however I'm really just playing devils advocate here, I don't think it's very likey either, but having movable type work in a meaningful way is almost equally improbable as don't forget that in the 19th century there was a raison d'etre for a movable type i.e. mass market newspapers which weren't really present before then in europe much less china

The problem, of course, is that China DID have a large class of literate scholars. Many, many more people took and passed the imperial examinations than were able to gain appointment in the Imperial government.

I also don't see not having newspapers as being much of an argument against movable type-- China had many more literate people in it total, and many many more literate people per capita, than Europe at the time. This means greater demand for books, scrolls, proclamations, etc. The "raison d'etre" for movable type in the later Qing dynasty was the desire to catch up to Europe after having fallen so far behind thanks to the repressive Qing government and Ming apathy before it.

Newspapers certainly weren't the raison d'etre for movable type in Europe either, for that matter, so it's something of a non sequitur to suggest that it would need to be.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

You overestimate the number of literate scholars, at the least peasants would outnumber them ten to one, and even then with all the turmoil going on not many guys are gonna have the chance to go for imperial examinations, and let's not forget that even if there are as large a number of scholars as you say (which there may be, I'm not an expert) There's still the entire female population which wasn't educated at all

Maybe the newspaper thing isn't a good argument, but things like newspapers are one of the greatest uses of movable type where woodblock printing fails, you can easily woodbloack print a book, but a daily or weekly newspaper can't afford to wait for the slow process of the woodbloack being cut

Anyway movable type also didn't take off in china because the person making the type had to have full literacy of chinese, which wasn't that common and many of the workmen wouldn't have been literate, so they were never produced en masse, though it might be possible in an alternative universe I guess

 

[Culise]

As an aside, comparing Chinese writing to Japanese or Korean is a quite flawed idea. Japanese Kanji, for example, was a brute force attempt to adapt Chinese writing to Japanese-- these two languages are as different as English is from Hindi, and naturally it makes for a complicate and unsatisfactory result (i.e., this is why Kanji is not the preferred writing system in Japanese). The situation is similar for Korean, which is a close relative of Japanese. Chinese has no inflection, so discreet characters work well as a writing system-- it does not work well at all with other languages.

Ah, but kanji is a fundamental part of Japanese writing still today, rather than not being preferred. You're slightly more accurate in Korean (though I disagree that modern Korean is closely related to Japanese; the two main ideas I've heard are an Altaic family encompassing both - with geographic proximity and cultural..."spread" between the two nations providing a converging similarity - or that Japanese is derived from a language that went extinct on the peninsula proper - Koguryan or Baekjae - and has little relation to modern Korean - Sillan). Besides which, hanja in both languages are still used alongside native alphabets as clarifiers in South Korea and exclusively as verb/adjective/adverb stems and nouns in Japan (DPRK banned hanja in 1949, so it's rather unused there for obvious reasons). Besides, hanja was considered suitable enough for Korean script for well over a thousand years (perhaps approaching 1.5 millenia at the most), so I'm not sure saying something like it being unsuitable really works against the historic reality.

My take with all of this is that the growing use of the printing press is not necessarily the cause of all the social changes, but rather reflective of changes already proceeding and perhaps a catalyzing agent accelerating the process. Hangul, for instance, was accompanied by a boom in literacy rates, especially among women. Even if initial amounts of literate scholars are high, that isn't necessarily an obstacle, depending on how literate they are. I think that it will have a smaller impact in Wei because of all of this (plus that Chinese is a purely native language there), but I don't think it will be entirely without impact on the national scale.

As a practical effect, a new written alphabet may affect innovation sliders in Wei, but I don't think it'll do that much more because adoption would be that much more difficult. In Korea, I'm unsure on a tech level transfer to Latin, and actually, I think a new alphabet would play more into a new educated class of bureaucrats that can run the government more efficiently. Goryeo was semi-feudal, after all, and that won't have changed just because of their military successes against Japan and the Jurchen. If anything, success "proves" the validity of the old way of doing things, and it'd take a new powerful class of have-nots inside the nation who have a vested interest in changing the status quo to alter things. It may be slightly interesting in both cases to see consequences something like centuries down the line for both nations, though. Maybe revolutionary sentiments in the 18th century for both nations are more pronounced, or the new Korean bureaucracy itself becomes corrupt and lax in the same way as the Joseon historically did. Inviting thought in your social inferiors has its price when they stop thinking they're your inferiors, after all.

 

[siafu]

We seem to be debating this to the point where the original issue is getting lost. The whole idea behind the movable type event was to foster the path for Wei involving expansion of Confucian institutions and practices, increased innovation, increased literacy and social mobility, and make plausible the eventual track wherein the emperor recedes into a "figurehead" roleand the country becomes dominated by a either a parliamentary system or a bureaucratic oligarchy.

The only reason movable type should be important is because this sort of transition would require some massive social transformations for, say, 150 years, and these could only be accomplished with a very large pool of educated and literate people demonstrate their own success and utility. Hence, movable type = more books which leads to this goal. If it's really so controversial-- knowing Chinese, it actually doesn't seem so far-fetched to me-- then other avenues can be pursued.

Personally, I recognize that I made it a bit too "small" in scope and ramifications, and I prefer MattyG's suggestion of expanding it into a thread of events requiring more investment and time.

 

[siafu]

Okay, for the moment lets discard the current Hua Sui/movable type events to be reworked later.

Also, importantly, I realized after doing more reading that I've been making a stupid anachronistic mistake in using the term Zong Li. Lu Buwei, the archetype of the post, held a functionally identical position but it was called Xiangguo. So, Matty, if it's alright please please do a find and replace in the event texts. From here on I'm just going to use xiangguo (more closely translated as "chief counselor", but functionally by Song/Yuan times the head of the bureaucracy) and not edit my previous posts.

So, in that vein, some more prime ministers. All of these are obviously triggered by having the relevant person as xiangguo.

1460
Death of Zhuge Lu
"The venerable Zhuge Lu passed into the afterlife in 1460, and the ministers of the court competed to replace him. Still awaiting his chance, Zhao Ming is a strong candidate. Also favored is the Minister of the Rites, Zhu Ran."

A. Appoint Zhao Ming
dip +2, adm +1, mil +1

B. Appoint Zhu Ran
dip +1, adm +3


1469
Death of Zhao Ming
The xiangguo has died, and many mourn his passing. It is time for the Son of Heaven to chose whom he shall favor with the management of the state. The Minister of the Rites, Zhu Ran, retains strong support in the court despite his advanced years, but opposed to him is Huo Qian, the keeper of the Imperial Annals.

A. Appoint Zhu Ran
dip +1, adm +3

B. Appoint Huo Qian
dip +2, adm +2, mil +1

1478
Huo Qian is murdered!
The revered prime minister Huo Qian has been murdered by his concubine, who herself was slain by his son Huo Jun before she could be questioned. Many applaud the filial act, and cry for his instatement as xiangguo in recognition of his virtue. Others in the court question his innocence in his father's death, crying that the situation is rather too convenient and that installing Huo Jun as xiangguo is unwise and could lead to the Huo family holding too much power. Mo Pi, recently elevated to the position of Minister of the Imperial Finances, has been suggested as a more acceptable candidate for his skills in debate and rhetoric and upstanding moral character. Whom shall we appoint?

A. Appoint Mo Pi
dip +3, adm +1
-1 Stab
-1 Centralization

B. Appoint Huo Jun
dip +2, adm +1, mil +2
-2 Stab
+1 Centralization

 

[siafu]

1475
Death of Zhu Ran
After fifteen years of faithful service, Zhu Ran has joined his ancestors. Since the untimely death of Huo Qian, Huo Jun has remained a popular figure, even moreso for his continuing loyalty even after being shunned by Imperial favor. Doubts still remain, and Mo Pi, a subordinate of the aged Minister of Imperial Finances Kuang Junli, is favored by many as a more practical choice.

A. Appoint Huo Jun
dip +2, adm +1, mil +2

B. Appoint Mo Pi
dip +3, mil +1

1501
Death of Mo Pi
Mo Pi has died, and the emperor must choose a new prime minister. Now advanced in age, Huo Jun's recently published commentary on the Records of the Grand Historian by Sima Qian, the honored ancestor of the Son of Heaven, has led many to suggest his appointment if only to recognize his contribution to the state before he too passes to the afterlife. Alternately, the Minister of the Rites, Cheng Guo, has developed a following in the court based on his adherence to the internationalist principles espoused by the Daoshang emperor.

A. Appoint Huo Jun
dip +2, adm +1, mil +2

B. Appoint Cheng Guo
dip +3, adm +1

1507
Death of Huo Jun
The aged Huo Jun has finally joined his ancestors in the afterlife. The respect accorded to his family has encouraged several ministers to support his adopted son and protege Kao Lian to be prime minister in hopes of continuing the great tradition. Those who oppose him cite fears of the creation of a near-hereditary post and the challenge it may present to Imperial authority. They instead have suggested that Cheng Guo, Minister of the Rites, be appointed as a check against the power of the Huos and their "puppet", Kao Lian.

A. Appoint Kao Lian
dip +1, adm +3

B. Appoint Cheng Guo
dip +3, adm +1

 

[siafu]

Sometime during the reign of the Gongwen Emperor (1472-1505)

Event: The Quest for Penglai
Since the time of the Daoshang Emperor, Chinese merchants have set sail from the Wei court in search of new markets, with and without state assistance. The rich trade from Goryo and Nippon have encouraged sailors to venture further east, though no more distant lands have been discovered thus far. The Gongwen Emperor, facing both the literal looming threat of his advancing years, and the more figurative threat of Ming and Song agression, ordered the Imperial Navy to report to him on what would be required to fund an expedition the East beyond Nippon, but the price quoted by the Minister of War, Ao Qi, was considered much too excessive. In a fit of pique, the Emperor proposed having Ao Qi executed for incompetence and confiscating his family estates to help mitigate the cost of the expedition, to be led by the enterprising Zhao Diwai.

A. Put Ao Qi to death and finance the expedition
-200 ducats
-2 Stability
+1 Centralization
+1 Naval
Gain the services of Zhao Diwai (explorer) with 4 warships
+2 inflation

B. Heed Ao Qi's words and abandon the idea.
-1 Naval
-50 VP

C. Finance the expedition, but retain Ao Qi.
-400 ducats
+1 Naval
+2 inflation
Also gain Zhao Diwai

 

[Don_Quigleone]

There should be more repercussions for losing ao qi, also maybe an event if you discover one of the polynesian islands (like hawaii)

 

[siafu]

There should be more repercussions for losing ao qi...

What sort? How much? What are you looking for here?

...also maybe an event if you discover one of the polynesian islands (like hawaii)

Possibly. Just an event for finding land at all, I think, as the Pacific is big and finding Hawaii can be rather difficult. This is another point where a different map with the various south pacific island groups (Tonga, Kiribati, Kritimati, New Caledonia, Guam, etc.) has advantages.

 

[siafu]

Just in case...

Event: The Wei Court is Overrun
Trigerred by: losing ownership of all mainland provinces (Fujian, Hunan, Zhejiang, Anhui), still owning and controlling Taiwan, and Shanghai controlled by an invader (i.e. triggered by a successful siege of Shanghai, the last mainland province held by Wei).

With the invaders at the gates, the Imperial family, with the direct aid of the prime minister, managed to slip out of the capital by boat and flee to Taiwan. In the following months, they were followed by various members of the bureaucracy who managed to escape, as well as hundreds of refugees from the hinterland. Though dreams of restoration would remain for generations, this desperate flight signalled the end, at least temporarily, of Wei prominence in the Middle Kingdom.

A. Guan Yin save us!
Lose Shanghai
Lose mainland cores
-250 pop. in Anhui and Hunan
-500 pop. in Fujian and Zhejiang
-750 pop. in Shanghai
+2250 pop. in Taiwan
+1 BVT in Taiwan
-1 Stability
+1 Naval

EDIT: Also, move the capital to Taiwan (duh.) and make peace with the invaders.

 

[Shogun 144]

Sorry for barging in on your thread Siafu but I have some ideas regarding Japan that involve the Wei. I felt I should check it out with you here.

Basically in my mind once the Goryeo get thrown out of Japan the Japanese get a Elizabeth style monarch I call Go-Saimei. Go-Saimei's primarily use is to be the driving force behind a naval reformation and the beginnings of Japan's overseas empire. In my background I made it so that Go-Saimei calls for foreign experts to help build her navy. Wei occupies the main source of that help. This occurs in the 1560s. Does that fit in with your material okay?

Secondly I also has some ideas in which the Imperial Court opens up trade and cultural exchange with China again, mainly Wei. In this I was aiming for Japan to recieve a boost in tech from China, and Confucianism. Now to copy from the JKJ thread :

"Confucianism actually came to Japan with Buddhism during the Tang, but it didn't catch on and it remained the sole province of Buddhist monks, since the Confucian Classics were part of thier school material. The Tokugawa, when they came to power, made Confucianism a big part of thier governing system. What I purpose is that through contact with Wei the Confucian Classics become popular amongst some of the noblity. As a 'Kotei-Style' {Chinese style} Tenno would profit from the rise of Confucianism, it would gain Imperial approval. I don't have this totally planned out but ultimatly Japan should gain some Confucian ministers from time to time, and some events about a struggle between the more traditional nobles and the nascent Confucian gentry. But Confucianism shouldn't take over, but provide some really nice events and fluff."

How does that fly?

Thanks for your time,
Shogun 144

 

[siafu]

Sorry for barging in on your thread Siafu but I have some ideas regarding Japan that involve the Wei. I felt I should check it out with you here.

Basically in my mind once the Goryeo get thrown out of Japan the Japanese get a Elizabeth style monarch I call Go-Saimei. Go-Saimei's primarily use is to be the driving force behind a naval reformation and the beginnings of Japan's overseas empire. In my background I made it so that Go-Saimei calls for foreign experts to help build her navy. Wei occupies the main source of that help. This occurs in the 1560s. Does that fit in with your material okay?

Secondly I also has some ideas in which the Imperial Court opens up trade and cultural exchange with China again, mainly Wei. In this I was aiming for Japan to recieve a boost in tech from China, and Confucianism. Now to copy from the JKJ thread :

"Confucianism actually came to Japan with Buddhism during the Tang, but it didn't catch on and it remained the sole province of Buddhist monks, since the Confucian Classics were part of thier school material. The Tokugawa, when they came to power, made Confucianism a big part of thier governing system. What I purpose is that through contact with Wei the Confucian Classics become popular amongst some of the noblity. As a 'Kotei-Style' {Chinese style} Tenno would profit from the rise of Confucianism, it would gain Imperial approval. I don't have this totally planned out but ultimatly Japan should gain some Confucian ministers from time to time, and some events about a struggle between the more traditional nobles and the nascent Confucian gentry. But Confucianism shouldn't take over, but provide some really nice events and fluff."

How does that fly?

Thanks for your time,
Shogun 144

That sounds great-- so long as Wei still exists in 1560. With the Taiwan event above (analogous to the KoJ fleeing to Cyprus), it makes it a rather safer bet. I'm hoping to have more international events as time goes on, as I've mostly been just doing ones with internal effects, and this sounds like an excellent venue for that.

In fact, I'm thinking that if there is a lot of cultural exchange, AND Wei is expelled to Taiwan, they might seek to join either Goryo or Nippon (depending on who wins the war) rather than remain independent and be forced to submit to Song, Wei, or Shun (Hui). This would indubitably only happen to the AI.

 

[siafu]

1505
The Gongwen Emperor
The death of the Gongwen Emperor, Sima Liang, heralded the end of a long and complicated reign. His reign saw several important governmental reforms, and he successfully dealt with the problems facing the changing economy, all the while faced with daunting military threats. Despite this, the Gongwen Emperor was unable to preserve himself a place in "proper" history. His bombastic nature, disputes with the Grand Secratariat and bureaucracy, and his final inability to truly endear himself to his subjects is best expressed in his unusual Temple Name, Lizong, "Sharp-witted ancestor".

A. A great ruler has departed us.
-1 RR everywhere for 18 months
+1 Stability

 

[siafu]

Some more prime minister events...

1520
Reforms of Kao Lian
Since his elevation to the position of xiangguo, Kao Lian has instituted a number of minor reforms that have generated a great deal of controversy in the court. In particular, he has presented two memorials to the Emperor. The first would require that all court ministers be of the jinshi, or doctoral, rank; the second would require that certain powers of taxation previously handled by the Grand Secratariat as a whole would be the exclusive purview of the xiangguo. Naturally, the other ministers have become extrememly suspicious and resentful of Kao Lian and are thundering for his dismissal.

A. Kao Lian has grown presumptuous in his power, dismiss him in disgrace.
Trigger "Kao Lian's Replacement" event (below)
-1 Stability
+1 Centralization

B. Support the prime minister.
-3 Stability
+1 Serfdom (limiting the size of the class of literati)
-1 Centralization

Kao Lian's Replacement
With the dismissal of the prime minister before his death, the court is in chaos as various factions attempt to win favor with the Son of Heaven for their candidates. Kao Lian's faction, still dominated by himself, supports the young An Baoli, nephew of the late Huo Jun and protege of Kao Lian himself. Naturally, this selection is heavily opposed as many see An as "tainted" by the disgrace that now follows Kao himself. The candidate most presented in opposition is Kuang Hao Min, Minister of the Rites and widely seen as a traditionalist and therefore a strong compromise candidate. Whom shall we appoint?

A. Appoint Kuang Hao Min
Monarch's dip +3, adm +1
+1 Stab

B. Appoint An Baoli
dip +1, adm +2, mil +2
-2 Stab

-----------------

1520
Death of Cheng Guo
The great Cheng Guo has left us to join his ancestors. Once again, we must appoint a new prime minister. Kao Lian, the protege of the late Huo Jun, is still favored by his party, but many find his manner arrogant and disrespectful, preferring instead the reserved and traditional Minister of the Rites, Kuang Hao Min. Whom shall we appoint?

A. Appoint Kao Lian
dip +1, adm +3, mil +1

B. Appoint Kuang Hao Min
dip +3, adm +1

 

[siafu]

1529
The Rise of the Dang
During the brief periods after the death of a prime minister, and before the appointment of his replacement, the officials of the court and the capital bureaucracy, and even sometimes the entire Grand Secratariat, would meet, discuss, argue, and jockey for position until the Son of Heaven presented his appointment. Over time, particularly during the reigns of the Gongwen and Qianshen Emperors, officials would get into the practice of making their personal and factional alliances in advance, allowing for a smoother transition and clearer blocs of support when the major appointments, particularly the pime ministership, were to be made. The result was the rise of dang, the early bases for later political parties. The dang allowed each official in the Wei bureaucracy to join a like-minded group for support and patronage, and made life easier for the Emperor by institutionalizing the various viewpoints of policy that were prevalent. On the other hand, many were fearful of the dang as they also encouraged factionalism and favoritism at the expense of good governance. In the end, however, some level of institutionalized factionalism was unavoidable, but the Qianshen Emperor passed a set of edicts delineating the official status of the dang in 1529, which was to have great implications in later centuries.

A. Support and institutionalize the dang with these new laws.
+1 Aristocracy
+1 Stability
-1 Centralization

B. Suppress the dang instead.
+1 Centralization
-1 Stability
-1 Aristocracy

 

[unmerged(31994)]

You should consider creating a series of events that kick all the Chinese states into orthodox tech. This is mainly because China is no longer a monolithic block and competition I suppose would be stiff between the tiny Chinese statelets, no?

 

[siafu]

You should consider creating a series of events that kick all the Chinese states into orthodox tech. This is mainly because China is no longer a monolithic block and competition I suppose would be stiff between the tiny Chinese statelets, no?

That's the plan. My previous starter, the Hua Sui event, turned out to be a little controversial, so I'm reworking it.

 

[unmerged(15247)]

just did wei up to 1550; cool start, very balanced ai armies/concept of asian nations; however once becoming china only IF diplo annex former manchu, all the fun dies
and the forever chineese emperor is boring

 

[siafu]

just did wei up to 1550; cool start, very balanced ai armies/concept of asian nations; however once becoming china only IF diplo annex former manchu, all the fun dies
and the forever chineese emperor is boring

Well, fine! Have some more! ;p

Name D A M Years
Xinfa (新發) 5 7 5 1547-1590
Yongjing (永景) 6 6 4 1590-1642
Hezhan (和戰) 6 4 7 1642-1666
Wenxi (文禧) 5 4 5 1666-1682
Kangzai (康宰) 3 6 4 1682-1688

 

[siafu]

~1475
Required: Own and control Taiwan, not a vassal of Ming or Song
Event: Piracy in the East China Sea
Desc: "With the rise of overseas trade through and around the Taiwan strait, there has been an accompanying rise in piracy. Many of these pirates are Yuanzhu fishermen seizing the opportunity to ameliorate their situations by seizing a small share of the riches passing by their shores. The increased loss of cargo has created an increase in prices for some basic commodities, and the Minister of Finance has warned that if left unchecked, the situation could grow out of control."

A: "Curtail the piracy and aggressively patrol the strait."
Naval +1
-100D
Relation with Song, Champa, Korea, and Japan +50
Relation with Ming +10
Gain 5 warships in Taiwan
Gain admiral Ouyang Lai, 3/2/3

B: "Arrest only those attacking our ships."
Naval +1
-60D
Relation with Song, Champa, Korea, and Japan +25

C: "Ignore the issue
-1 Stability
BTV in Taiwan -1
Relation with Song, Champa, Korea, and Japan -50
Relation with Ming -10