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If I recall correctly, Molar were going to hunt AVN night 3, but Taiisatai contacted us and said he was going to scan AVN. Whatever the case, both packs knew AVN was seer on day 4, as Taiisatai and randakar said they would contact the outed Eternaly_Lost. Why the Canine pack didn't hunt him that night, I don't know.
I finally won a big, and I feel dirty. The only thing I contributed to the victory was scanning Randy for AVN and passing on that he was a cultist - but AVN had already decided to lynch Adamus, so the result would have been the same regardless.
I'm surprised at the outcome really. There were apparently 10 baddies (I forget everyone we lynched + Enk the cursed but someone said 10) out of 24 players, which is 41% of the players! A more normal ratio is between 25-30% wolves. I'm surprised that the JL won, particularly with the GA dying early and thereby preventing the unbreakable JL situation. I'm not sure if this reflects unbalanced setup (IE too many traits for the village), abysmal wolf play (I tend to avoid that sort of excuse, because I loathe hindsight heroes who "would have done" something that is obvious only with the benefit of hindsight), or just good luck.
I think it does vindicate what some of us have been saying about JLs being able to steamroll when they get going... and yet with Enk's hunter trait, AVN shouldn't have survived.
I'm surprised at the outcome really. There were apparently 10 baddies (I forget everyone we lynched + Enk the cursed but someone said 10) out of 24 players, which is 41% of the players! A more normal ratio is between 25-30% wolves. I'm surprised that the JL won, particularly with the GA dying early and thereby preventing the unbreakable JL situation. I'm not sure if this reflects unbalanced setup (IE too many traits for the village), abysmal wolf play (I tend to avoid that sort of excuse, because I loathe hindsight heroes who "would have done" something that is obvious only with the benefit of hindsight), or just good luck.
I think it does vindicate what some of us have been saying about JLs being able to steamroll when they get going... and yet with Enk's hunter trait, AVN shouldn't have survived.
Randakar knew Night 3. The other pack was informed through Eternaly_Lost, who failed to give me any kind of contact, on the night he was outed. I was disapointed by my game as Sorcerer, perhaps next time I'll have more wolves to work with...
Yes I did, though not well enough. I had scanned taiisatai64 already before you asked me btw, so you didn't gave his name to the enemy. I should have told you he was the priest when I told you I had scanned AVN as villager. Still I hope that scan report led to him not being the primary hunt target.
That was probably my fault, I had contacted snoopdogg on the second night posing as the sorcerer, so Eternaly_Lost probably thought you were lying at first.
I have wondered if I would answer those questions, but I have decided now to give my opinion. And you asked for it ...
You made more mistakes. I remember :
a) Informing apprentices that they were an apprentice.
b) Not giving me the scan results when I scanned a villager who was visited by the lover.
c) Informing the lover that he visited an empty home.
d) Telling me that reis91 was an apprentice when I scanned him. He was a sorc at that moment and I should have scanned him as a villager.
b) was corrected quickly. a) didn't influence the game because the apprentices were lazy. d) I could work out, but didn't make a difference for the outcome of the game and only c) had serious consequences for the game. It handicapped the baddies.
I also missed on most days the final votecounts, including the persons who didn't vote that day.
IMO publishing them, reduces the number of non_voters.
On a positive note. Your updates were fast and interesting to read. Also the player list was updated regularly, which is good.
So overall, esemesas and you did a good job
Thank you both for hosting
I found one serious mistake while I was playing. The wolves were allowed to hunt me while I was in coma. Normally this isn't allowed.
Luckily for me the wolves didn't read the rules (although my blessed trait should have saved me)
In general I think your ruleset was good, although there are some minor issues which can be discussed. And I think the game needs to be revamped, but that's a discussion not specifically related to this game and your GM-ing.
I think there were 2 baddies too much in this game. Probably this was an advantage for the goodies as the game was going for them, but it could also have worked heavily against them.
And my final word : @esemesas and tamius23 : Again thanks for hosting
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Well, what were we supposed to tell her? I think you would notice the fact that you're fucking with a bed sheet.
It was either telling Jopi she found an empty bed, telling johho she was preoccupied with another lover and didn't go out that night or pretending we're in two parallel universes where in one Jopi slept with johho and the other where Jopi didn't sleep with johho.
Why is it necessary to tell someone he slept in an empty bed ?
I don't see that reason. And AFAIK no GM gave that information before.
I fail to see how lovers being able to find other lovers screws the balance of the game.
It's certainly a change of rules that should be thought about, and you should set your game up to be balanced with this new rule if you include it, but I can think of worse rule changes that have been used in games.
The issue is not that lovers know if the bed they visit is empty. The issue is whether or not the game is balanced with this in mind.
It's certainly a change of rules that should be thought about, and you should set your game up to be balanced with this new rule if you include it, but I can think of worse rule changes that have been used in games.
The issue is not that lovers know if the bed they visit is empty. The issue is whether or not the game is balanced with this in mind.
It should be made as clear as possible before the game starts, though.
Ideally yes, but as a GM you can't think of everything beforehand. Had I been online when Jopi accused me it might have ended differently.
When lover A visited lover B in a game I hosted he slept in an empty bed and was told nothing and neither were lover B (he got there after lover B went out). This might be counterintuitive since you would think he'd notice but for game balancing the less info you give out to the players the better. This is also the reason why only people affected by lover visits are told (we had everyone told earlier and then it was too easy to prove that you were a lover). If lover A had stopped lover B from going out then lover B would have been told. These are "my" rules though and every GM makes his own rules and interpretations.
Another win, another very boring game for me personally. The JL, especially AVN, deserves a lot of credit for the way it played but I think once again the power of the JL tarred this game. I don't think the GM's learned the lessons of the previous game, although I haven't had time to look at set-up, perhaps it was just luck. Whatever, I still think we need to focus on reducing the power of the JL; this should be every prospective GM's modus operandi in the immediate.
Neverthless, thanks to tamius and esemesas for GM'ing. I didn't find the theme too promising at the start of the game, but in the end I did quite like the updates.
Neverthless, thanks to tamius and esemesas for GM'ing. I didn't find the theme too promising at the start of the game, but in the end I did quite like the updates.
I don't think this game repeated the mistakes of the last one: EUROO7 tried something new and it didn't pan out; the apprentices sold everyone out and caused a landslide.
This game was a landslide too, but not for the same reasons. One problem is that usually a seer doesn't act as a mouthpiece, and so they usually aren't given GA/Doc protection every night the way mouthpieces are. A blessed trait on a seer isn't that unbalanced in a normal playstyle, but with a blessed seer subject to protection... even with the loophole that coma patients can be hunted, the wolves still would have needed two more hunts on AVN to finish him off.
Personally I would think that blessing the seer or priest should never be done unless there are no apprentices. Killing AVN would have been like trying to sprint through molasses, particularly if the GA was in: 50% chance of blocking by the GA, then next hunt 50% of working versus Doc; if it doesn't then the hunt is blocked by the blessed trait and you need to hunt again; the GA will likely be protecting again, that's another hunt, then back to the Doc... GA+Doc+Blessed is virtually impregnable. Need a hunter or brutal to circumvent it. So we're getting back toward the planning thread discussion of how to prevent super JLs.
Poor baddie play might actually have contributed here, although I'm not sure what tools the baddies really had. A lot of baddies with no tools is less useful than fewer baddies with more tools. When your only tool is hunts and the other side's spokesman and seer is virtually impervious to hunts, what can you do? Someone else said the seerish and priestly powers also affected it. Depending on how many there were, that might also have been an issue.
Bad baddie play definitely contributed. The GA was dead before the JL got really started. And the Doc couldn't protect AVN every night. After AVN was saved by the Doc, all the baddies knew when he would be protected and when he wouldn't be. Regardless, they should have hunted him way, way earlier in the game. AVN's survival hid the fact that it is really the lover role that would have been unbalanced. A lover is basically unhuntable, you have a 1/N where N is the number of players chance to hit the lover with a regular hunt. If AVN hadn't stepped forward, I could have been the JL's spokesperson. The only thing I had to fear was brutal or a hunter. Baddie hunters are kind of stupid idea, I think. Yes, you can kill a JL mouthpiece/seer, but then you'll be very dead the next day. I wouldn't want to play a role where my only mission is to conduct a suicide mission against another role.
I'd like to see tried a variant with the Seer being replaced by seerish powers, Priest by priestly powers, and Sorc by sorcerish powers. These powers would be able to detect each other, even after the target already used them, and would be spread amongst goodies and baddies.
I also subscribe the motion against Ironman JL's, it's somewhat boring play. At least give the baddies tools to find the protectors if they know their target.
I also subscribe the motion against Ironman JL's, it's somewhat boring play. At least give the baddies tools to find the protectors if they know their target.
One thing I didn't get(and still don't) was why Prince of Savoy didn't use his hunter trait on AVN if his pack knew him to be the seer. No matter how protected someone is, they can't be protected from a hunter. Guess he just didn't want to get lynched.
D'oh well, I hope tamius posts a GM AAR since I couldn't see everything going behind the scenes. I do have all the orders though, so I will post them if he chooses not to do a GM AAR.
D'oh well, I hope tamius posts a GM AAR since I couldn't see everything going behind the scenes. I do have all the orders though, so I will post them if he chooses not to do a GM AAR.
Personally I think the game was already decided on day 4, when E_L confirmed that he was a baddie.
Then the priest contacted me and so much information became available for the JL that normally the goodies should have won the game.
Even if I was hunted that night.
If I was hunted that night (by Prince of Savoy) the win would have been delayed, but I still think the goodies would have won if the JL members had cooperated.
Only bad luck with the cursed villagers could have prevented such a win.
And I don't believe it's specific for this game.
I think it's usual for a game in which the seer and priest are able to to survive till day 4/5 and then create a functioning JL (based on 24 starting players).
Then the priest contacted me and so much information became available for the JL that normally the goodies should have won the game.
Even if I was hunted that night.
If I was hunted that night (by Prince of Savoy) the win would have been delayed, but I still think the goodies would have won if the JL members had cooperated.
Only bad luck with the cursed villagers could have prevented such a win.
And I don't believe it's specific for this game.
I think it's usual for a game in which the seer and priest are able to to survive till day 4/5 and then create a functioning JL (based on 24 starting players).
We're debating the setup, though.
About the lover, was never fond of the role, and the ability to evade hunts is just too damn good. The rule in WW should be "When you hunt something, it dies", and have as few exceptions as possible. Not to say that hunts cannot have nefarious effects on the wolves themselves, like hitting a hunter and getting one wolf killed, but they are as vital as votes. Also, votes should ensure that people die, there should not be the possibility of nobody getting lynched, like in EURO's game. WW where nobody dies ain't fun.
