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LordInsane

Lt. General
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Nov 1, 2007
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I've been playing Interregnum recently, and became interested in the region of England, and specifically Wessex. While in most games, in 1.04, it would fall under the dominance of another state- most likely Scotland or Brittany, the possibility of going Principality (which is a bad name, by the way: a Prince, in this sense, is lower on the feudal scale then a Duke) and then claiming the mantle of England (and aided by the Dutch events, in some games) allows it to become quite a nice power in the hands of a player.
So, what are the current plans for those in Interregnum 2? I would help, but
1) my event-making skills are still rather limited, and
2) I haven't got any ideas more complex then 'use the ENG tag, and move the capital to London' :p.
 
Thanks for the perspective on what a 'prince' is, I didn't realize. I assumed that as Prince of Wales (head of that whole country) prince meant you were of higher stanbding than a Duke within England.

The only reason we never had England as something to be reestablished in Interregnums early versions was essentially fear of upsetting the old order that said "No England, France Spain etc"

I fully intend to have England as a resurrectable country in 2.0 and the only reason I haven't done it yet is that I am moving alphabetically through the countries and haven't gotten to York or Wessex yet.

And, yes, the move to London is inevitable if Wessex owns it. :)

As for how often Wessex does well, it sounds like it is WAD. It's supposed to do well 'every now and then' like th other large-minors in Interregnum.
 
MattyG said:
Thanks for the perspective on what a 'prince' is, I didn't realize. I assumed that as Prince of Wales (head of that whole country) prince meant you were of higher stanbding than a Duke within England.

The only reason we never had England as something to be reestablished in Interregnums early versions was essentially fear of upsetting the old order that said "No England, France Spain etc"

I fully intend to have England as a resurrectable country in 2.0 and the only reason I haven't done it yet is that I am moving alphabetically through the countries and haven't gotten to York or Wessex yet.

And, yes, the move to London is inevitable if Wessex owns it. :)

As for how often Wessex does well, it sounds like it is WAD. It's supposed to do well 'every now and then' like th other large-minors in Interregnum.
It's a bit complex, because prince in English can actually mean one of two things, whereas Prins/Prinz, etc in the other Germanic languages only refers to one of them. Prince as a close relative of a king is a high title, while prince in the other sense is either quite a low title, or used for a nobleman in general, and this follows on to the term principality. And that is compounded by translations that could be called, hm, a bit misleading, and the fact that whether you were your own, or within a state, didn't actually have an effect on the title's standing, per se.
Feudalism, eh? :rolleyes:.

And happy to hear about the other things!
Er, I hope I haven't been too irritating here.
 
LordInsane said:
It's a bit complex, because prince in English can actually mean one of two things, whereas Prins/Prinz, etc in the other Germanic languages only refers to one of them. Prince as a close relative of a king is a high title, while prince in the other sense is either quite a low title, or used for a nobleman in general, and this follows on to the term principality. And that is compounded by translations that could be called, hm, a bit misleading, and the fact that whether you were your own, or within a state, didn't actually have an effect on the title's standing, per se.
Feudalism, eh? :rolleyes:.

And happy to hear about the other things!
Er, I hope I haven't been too irritating here.


On the contrary.

I will (eventually) update the refernces to "principality" and keep Wessex as a duchy, until such time as it dares take on the mantle of Kingdom of England!
 
One problem I feel from this.

My reading of English History shows that the English Crown was sort of happen-stance. Unlike France, Lotharingia, and the Holy Roman Empire, there was no great claim stemming back from some king. It was just an invasion of an island that nobody could hold externally. Ergo, whilst London may be greatly important, the Wessex Duke may declare himself the king of whatever the hell country he wants to name his spit of land, as England is only special for having previously existed.

So, I think there should be two outcomes, based upon the events that transpire.

The divisor, I think, should be Lollardy. Lollard Wessex will not claim the old crown of England, and instead make themselves into a new kingdom (after all, Divine Right of the Monarch means that the King of England is pretty much inherently Catholic at this point).

So, there's Lollard [Wessex] and Catholic England.

The Lollard one could use a good name, though, instead of being the puny Duchy of Wessex, it still needs a big glorious transformation, and get a new capital (perhaps force them to steal Cornwall from Brittany to get a capital they want to keep?).

Pronunciations: Wess
I'm not sure how this should be pronounced. Wess as in West, or Wess as in Wehs (Wezex, with the same shortened sound, only an s)?

Kingdom of Wessexer. (Wess-ex-er)
Kingdom of Wessexeter. (Wess-ex-et-er)
^They should have a new flag


Kingdom of Cornwall
^
150px-Flag_of_Cornwall.svg.png

^
110px-Cornwall_Crest.jpg


Kingdom of Penzance/Penzance-On-Sea (provides a nice abbreviation)
^
Penzancecoat.gif

Isn't that a nice coat of arms? Should obviously retain Piran's Flag.

Those are a few ideas.

Note that if Wessex establishes a kingdom capitaled anywhere in Cornwall, it will be a new contender in the Cyrmu succession, and otherwise inextricably linked with Brittany and Cymru. As an additional change, the cultures will naturally have to synch.
 
I would gladly write them for you.

But, what's the point in writing such things if your idea won't even be accepted?

So, if we get some general consensus to enact this plan, we need to find:
Country Tag
Shields (I have no idea how to do these)
Consensus on the name, capital, flag (in all fairness, anything capitaled from Cornwall would have Piran's Flag)
Writer (I suppose this would be me. . .)
 
Because, you may have noticed, that matty has had to devote most of his time to interregnum 2? while, I'm largely in charge of absurdly large areas, which make my time extremely divided. I would really appreciate any help, and so would Matty.

Capitol would be wessex probably, also country tag's I'll check which are open. Give me a moment or to. I'm just glad to see the mod has restored activity. *Matty doesn't make any topics lately, and I've been going berserk in an attempt to revive the Mod's almost total inactivity. Matty is to reliant on waiting for Garbon to finish the map for AGCEEP, it could be months, if not years, or never.
 
I was speaking rhetorically. I didn't add any more than a few minutes of effort as I felt there would be no point to it if the other Interregnum players reject the idea.

I actually prefer a country capitaled from Cornwall, myself, if only because I love the name Kingdom of Penzance(-On-Sea), though that naturally requires a province fix for Cornwall.

And, I justify the name Penzance-On-Sea by the fact that numerous English place names are named -On-Something (indeed, I spent a few days in Westcliffe-On-Sea, whilst a friend of mine was from Richmond-On-Thames), despite that Penzance itself lacks the -On-Sea naming convention. It is, in fact, on the sea, with a very nice harbour, and Penzance-On-Sea allows abbreviations (POS in this case). Alternatively, there's Penzance-On-Bay. POB sounds a tad silly in this case.
 
I'm not convinced about Wessex moving the capital to Penzance as its not a particularly big town and its location is not central in any way. Its the last stop on the train line and the river Tamar isolates it from the rest of Wessex. Personally I think Plymouth would be the more natural choice as the territory that Brittany currently controls seemingly contains it so it could also have Cornish culture.

I feel that having a capital in the west is a nice idea as it signifies that Wessex are following a different route however I think if Wessex ever conquers London they would most likely move the capital there or at least once they reach a certain size.
 
Dell19:

I like your points about the capital, I would like to give you some further reasoning for Penzance.

*It is -a- capital. Specifically, of Penwith Peninsula, making it the westernmost reasonable capital of Wessex.

*Rule of Cool. Specifically, the believability of completely untrue things is a direct proportion to how cool it is. Ergo, Penzance trumps Plymouth in terms of the Rule of Cool in terms of name (to me), it also has a 'cooler' location.

*Administrative Linearity. Most countries aim for a radial administrative model, where everything functions as spokes along the wheel. In a linear administrative model, you need a location such as Penzance (nigh-absolutely in one corner, preferrably on a peninsula). The big advantage of a linear administrative model is the tree effect of administration. You establish a major communication leyline, the trunk,which should cut to exactly the opposite point of your country (possibly a secondary capital). From there, the branches cover the entire territory, in increasingly smaller tributaries (yes, mixed metaphor, go with it), that all feed back into the main trunk. Avoiding congestion upon the trunk is accomplished by consolidating all major information into one travelling unit, rather than having all of the little units creating a standstill upon the trunk. Similarly, information is distributed along the trunk on the opposite side (again, think tree). Once information reaches the required offshoot, it leaves the main unit and travels with the branch unit, to the tributary unit, and so on. For a country the size of this hypothetical Kingdom of Penzance, this would take maybe a thousand people on retainer? I'm not good with my maths.

*Population shift. There's a reason capitals tend to be the largest cities in a country. It's the capital. You make Penzance the capital, it will quickly become a very large city.

*Tradition Break. Remaining in London will evoke the image of England past, which I have the idea a country that is specifically avoiding being "England" will not be pleased with doing.

*Port Locale. According to my reading of the history of Penzance, it was ravaged by pirates and plague several times over. Because it's a prime seaport location, as they go, and was mostly unprotected, in comparison with London, which, like all important cities, was heavily guarded.
**Subordinate to this, it does indeed mark a shift in Wessex' plans. This version of Wessex, I feel, should be very interested in colonization and trade and naval dominance. Making your administrative center as close to where you want to go as possible is a logical decision.

As for moving to London later, I disagree on principle (as mentioned in Tradition Break), but if we include this for Lollard Wessex, I at least maintain it should be optional, with varying consequences (like relocating to York for Scotland).
 
I had posted a reply but unfortunately it got lost. Basically I think that Penzance is in a hilly location that would limit its expansion so cities should as London and Plymouth are still likely to be the main population centres. It sounds a bit like the vanilla Austrian events to move the capital to Tyrol. Possibly if Wessex gain Cornwall they could initially move the capital to Penzance but then there would be a follow up event to move to Plymouth or Bristol if Wessex own the city.

Since these events would depend on Wessex capturing Cornwall we might need to give some help like for instance if Cornwall becomes independent then Wessex can choose to incorporate the province and relocate their capital for less of a BB hit.

I like the idea of Wessex being a coloniser however there are already more than Vanilla so its quite hard to build a large colonial empire. This should change if the new map ever appears.
 
Lollard Wessex' huge problem is being jammed in between two naval, colonising powers with a delayed colonisation initiative in comparison to them. Wessex needs every bit of assistance it can get in the current state. Either that, or Wessex needs to challenge them personally, but Wessex was designed as a weaker state, worse yet, this version of Wessex is a heretical state that will get its scrawny buttocks handed to it if it starts anything too big.

Hmm. I suppose you have a point about the capital's location (however, as I seem to recall, London was a pretty hilly place to live in as well, what with streets at 45 degreed angles, so I don't agree with that assessment), but I would still advocate the westernmost reasonable capital. London just does not fit this version of Wessex at all. Certainly, it can be a big, lovable city, but it's not the Wessex ideal.

As for moving to Plymouth, in Interregnum 1, and I suspect 2, they're in the same province, so it is functionally identical. Can Plymouth maintain the same linear model I described, however? Further, there's always plan b: Plymouth is the popular city of the capital (like the city of New York not being the capital of its administrative region in the United States), but administrative centring still takes place in Penzance (recall, after all, a big part of the appeal of Penzance is the name. Kingdom of Plymouth just doesn't have the same ring as Kingdom of Penzance).

So, if everyone prefers Plymouth, I guess I can write that, but I swear it's under duress.

Capturing Cornwall: Ideally, when Cornwall declares independence, they admit they're horribly ruined, and acquiesce to joining Wessex. As a possible disbelief suspender for the player, it might be on the condition that the king moves his administration there (forcing the capital there even if Kingdom of Penzance/Plymouth/What-have-you won't form from it immediately).

Colonising Problems: I think it is generally agreed that Interregnum doesn't allow for colonial monopolies as a feature, not as a flaw.
 
Penzance is on Cornwall. Cornwall is Breton culture and a part of Brittany.

I don't think it is a good idea from agame perspective to have Wessex move from Populous central England at the heart of its culture-group to a smaller town deep in the Breton culture.

Plus, if the structure of this cycle requires it to take Cornwall, then you set Wessex on a collision with Brittany, who begins the game much stronger. Fortunes change, but you make it an inevitable conflict. Finally, it means that another major power will have a core on your capital for, like, the whole of the game. That means constant conflict with and ai-Brittany and a permanent, irrevocable way for a player Brittany to DoW you at will.

Penzance is cool, and is a great capital for the Duchy of Cornwall when it breaks away ... :D
 
Well, this raises a few questions for me.

In the Interregnum history, is Cornwall "Breton" or is Cornwall Breton? That is to say, is Cornwall called Breton to show it's pretty content with being ruled by Brittany and we didn't want to give Brittany more than the one culture, or is Cornwall Breton to show that Cornwall is bloody well Breton, no two ways about it?

To put it another way, according to Interregnum, has Cornwall always been a Breton land, or only since the division of England (trust me, they would not be fully Breton simply because Brittany owns the place for a while)?

If the former, the obvious answer is that Brittany will have to give up (say, fail to recover it within a specific time frame?). If the latter, then yes, that's actually a problem.

Thing is, though, this is a Wessex that has already done some astounding survival work. They probably already own London, they're working under the pros and cons of the Lollard Heresy, and more than likely have gotten Midlands or York's outlying land (probably not York's, really. . .). The king would naturally set his sights on what he views as a great place to establish a new dynasty, not second best (after all, the Duchy of Wessex rules from Wessex not because they want to, but because it's the best of a bunch of bad options). Furthermore, being essentially the only southern claimant for the English Throne (despite not really wanting it in the Lollard Wessex), they would feel they have a right to all of south Albion. Brittany would be their enemy anyway.

Finally, a town is only as important as it can be fortified and used as a centre commercial. Population doesn't matter, you can bring some with you. Location doesn't matter, you're the king, they will come to you no matter how far. So, is it fortifiable? Penzance definitely is, it just never was.

So, I guess a lot of it hinges on my earlier question. . . and I strongly think that Wessex will have a big goal of taking Cornwall regardless of whether it will be the capital.
 
Well, the Interregnum history has Cornwall as being annexed in the late 1300s.

So, relatively recently. But the culture is Breton culture and Cornwall, whose nobles and clerics attend the Parlement Breizh and do not speak English, would definitely see the English as conquerors. Sure, time changes everything, but I suspect the Emglish view Cornwall with a fair degree of contempt, which historically the nobility did.

If you want to have a good port city on the west, Wessex owns it from the beginning. It's called britol, it is a magnificent port and at the time the third-biggest city south of the Cheviots.
 
Ultimately, I had wanted something that could set up linear administration and was not London. I latched on to Penzance because it not only fit my minimum criteria, but fit many additional criterion and well. It faced the location I figured Wessex should travel, it had a Rule Of Cool trumping of most every other place name, and was justifiable geographically.

But, I am tired, and eager to get on with it. So, I guess I give up on Penzance, regardless.
 
Well, ignoring capitals until we can reach a proper agreement on where Wessex should like to establish a capital (we could agree to disagree and make a choose-your-own-capital-anywhere-but-London event, as I am adamant this capital is not London), I'd like to give a basic overview of the Lollard Wessex plotline.

Naturally, it has the same backstory as the catholic Wessex.

In the beginning, Wessex allowed Lollardy to spread, and eventually it reached critical mass and converted the entire state to Lollardy. This immediately presented one problem: Everyone hated them. I would like to temper this somewhat based upon the outcome of the Hussite deal. If Jan Hus wins everything, then Wessex won't face backlash, and the worse Jan Hus' fortunes, the stronger the backlash against Wessex (of course, this would require rebalancing that entire event string to put the odds on more even footing, as I'm sick of having Bavaria win every single time).

So, at moderate levels, one major power might decided to call Wessex on it, and at the worst extremes, pretty much all of the British Isles blows its top. Of course, being a currently-fervent religious group, Wessex has onslaught readiness, and can repel them.

At this point, Wessex has probably gained a few lands, most likely: Anglia, Midlands, and York's secondary land. It is essentially England. There's a brief murmur that the Duke of Wessex should claim the throne, which the Duke quickly quashes with an impassioned speech from Canterbury (not the head of the Lollard Church, as there was no such thing, but where the King preferred to have service due to Chaucer's works), in which he explains that he will accept no catholic throne, as his country is legitimate in its own right.

Later, he acquires more land, probably 60% of Albion or more, and decides that he has sufficient power to establish his own crown. The as-yet-un-named kingdom will be headquartered somewhere new, avoiding London due to the Catholic connotations, and will cause Lollardy to spread like a virus to the surrounding countries. At this point, if the Duke of York has lost their relationship with Scotland, he will voluntarily join Wessex, in exchange for the ability to retain his rights.

The King leads them into prosperity (the details of his conquests remain as yet fuzzy), and in the proper rising arc, the next heiress will be female. Naturally, she's fairly well scorned by most everyone, but quickly proves herself both a mistress of Lollard theology, and quite skilled at their job (this ruler will be land or water military, in relation to the now-past event where you choose between a General or an Admiral to lead your country), and takes the fight into France, or attempts to finish Albion, based upon your earlier decision. A Lollard General Wessex will unite Albion, and then hijack Scotland's claims on Norway (not being able to completely reproduce them, they will however be able to -eventually- annex Norway), before using this foothold to move into Kalmar, then into Germany, or Russia. The Lollard Admiral Wessex will seek Anjou and Paris, and control of the English Channel, capable of a much higher Lollardy-Infection rate. The Queen becomes a beloved monarch, and greatly respected throughout Europe, despite being a godless heretic, and more to the point can tie Wessex to the fates of one or two countries, and due to a shift in interpretation, the Queen has the same status in inheritances as a King, or else.

Eventually, however, opportunities start drying up in Europe, as resistance grows greater and greater to the Lollard Empire, and Wessex joins the colonization craze late. From here, I'm not entirely sure where to take it. Perhaps Africa. To the point, however, Wessex will be constantly seeking to spread Lollardy, not overdue to religious zeal, but rather to their obsession with stopping the Catholics whom they perceive as oppressive.
 
I did get a slight bug with the current set of events when playing as Wessex. I choose to go with the Naval king rather than the land based king howevever I then got the you have failed to conquer Holland without getting anyy previous related events.

I think the event: 405205 needs a trigger so that it only happens if the previous events have fired.

Also there are no events for Northumberland, Wales or Cornwall to switch to Anglosaxon culture. This is probably valid although an arguement could be made that Cornwall (also Somerset and Devon) and Northumberland would eventually revert back to Anglosaxon culture.