What are the mongols like in DV?

[unmerged(94581)]

I've found a lot of old threads detailing how horrible the mongol hordes are, that they start out with hundreds of thousands of superior troops, have a lot of hard-coded bonuses, etc and are basically so overpowered that they are almost guaranteed to go all the way to Paris.

This sounds broken and, since I'm currently playing a game as Moskva, I'm curious whether this issue was fixed since then. So, a few questions to those who saw the horde in their more recent games:

1. What is facing the mongols like? Is it more like fighting any regular kingdom, just a bit tougher, or is it more like trying to stop a freight train with your bare hands?

2. How big do you need to be to actually fight them and survive? Playing a russian country, I will be right in their path, so I have to be strong enough to win by the time they come.

3. Is there anything that hinders/breaks up/removes the mongols after a while? It seems that they start strong and the more they conquer the stronger they will get, thanks to suffering no penalties. If one failed to defeat them in Rus, does that mean all hope is lost, or is it possible to retreat and hold on to part of your domain somewhere farther away to come back when they are gone?

4. In general, what are the anti-mongol strategies people use?

Thanks in advance. Although it's still about a century until the invasions historically started in my game, reading all this stuff has me worried, as I would like the game that lasts until 1400, not 1250.



EDIT:

I went digging through the event file for mongols, and... please tell me I'm reading this wrong:

##############################
# Reinforcements from Bolgar #
##############################
province_event = {
id = 5512
picture = "event_mongol"
trigger = {
condition = { type = difficulty value = 1 }
condition = {
type = not
value = { type = difficulty value = 2 }
}
condition = { type = or
condition = { type = province value = 615 }
condition = { type = province value = 616 }
condition = { type = province value = 617 }
}
condition = { type = year value = 1255 }
condition = { type = exists value = GOLD }
condition = {
type = demesne
value = GOLD
}
condition = {
type = not
value = {
type = realm_regiments
value = 5
}
}
}

mean_time_to_happen = {
months = 1

modifier = {
condition = { type = year value = 1280 }
factor = 12
}
modifier = {
condition = { type = year value = 1300 }
factor = 10
}
modifier = {
condition = { type = year value = 1340 }
factor = 10
}
}

action_a = {
effect = { type = add_regiment country = GOLD culture = mongol strength = { archer_cav = 10000 light_cav = 10000} }
effect = { type = random chance = 75 effect = { type = add_regiment country = GOLD culture = mongol strength = { archer_cav = 10000 light_cav = 10000} } }
effect = { type = random chance = 50 effect = { type = add_regiment country = GOLD culture = mongol strength = { archer_cav = 10000 light_cav = 10000} } }
effect = { type = random chance = 25 effect = { type = add_regiment country = GOLD culture = mongol strength = { archer_cav = 10000 light_cav = 10000} } }
}
}

Does that mean this event gives the mongols, on average, 50000 troops per month for free, so long as they don't have five regiments? In other words, even if I was strong enough to defeat the horde as it arrived, the game would just generate more and more mongols until I finally die? If so, WTH?! Does Paradox mean for the game to end around mid 1200s?

 

[jordarkelf]

No, take a look at the MTTH.
After 1280, the MTTH becomes 12 months (1 year), after 1300 it becomes 10 years, after 1340 it becomes 100 years.

And this event will only fire if the Golden Horde exist in the first place, and holds those provinces.

This is to model that the Mongols should be nearly unstoppable, IF they manage to get a foothold on the map. They should be a hard fight. The reinforcements represent their empire that is outside of the map, stretching almost all the way back to Mongolia.

 

[unmerged(94581)]

Well, given that the mongols can show up starting from 1212, 1280 is a long time to play whack-a-mongol til and would require a rather large and wealthy empire, it would seem. If they come in 1220, that's up to 60*12*50,000=36,000,000(yes, thirty six MILLION) soldiers that they can get before the MTTH ups to 12 months. I'm sorry, but no size of an empire can raise that kind of an army and send it half way across the world. Plus, all their soldiers are counted as elite superhumans, and even if we assume that the mongols themselves were so, the rest of the subjects in their empire certainly were not. And this is just one event. There are many other events that give them free troops.

I know this event fires only if they have provinces, but this is just one event. There are other events that ensure more and more mongol expeditions come if they don't hold those provinces also, though MTTH is higher than a month on those. But how exactly are you supposed to kick them off the map if they are pretty much hard-coded to always have at least 100,000 troops?

Mind you, I'm talking purely theoretically here, since I haven't faced the mongols in my game yet. I'd love to hear first-hand stories of people somehow fighting the horde. Even better, of AI fighting the horde.

Going by the numbers alone, though, would suggest that mongol events are basically a big, hard-coded "game over".

Question, then: if I was to backup and delete the mongol file from my events folder, would this stop the events from firing in my ongoing game, or would it only take effect if I start a new game?

 

[Shackel]

This essentially happened in history and was only stopped by overexpansion.

The freight train WILL stop, it just needs enough bodies in its way.

 

[loki100]

Hi I'm currently playing a game as one of the Rus Princedoms (shameless plug, its also an AAR) and have had 30 or so years of Mongol problems. Should say this is CK+DV+DVIP

The Golden Horde has been a pain but with the normal developments of my lands over 150 years I've managed to squash it. Its mainly done 2 things - cost me a lot of money (I have sometimes had to mobilise nearly everything I can) and halt much activity elsewhere. In part as my bad-boy has gone up as I've grabbed previously Mongol occupied provinces & this has of course led to internal rebellions. The only Golden Horde incursion that was really dangerous was when I was also suffering from Black Death (well not me personally) and was short on troops.

So the net effect is my kingdom is a bit battered, and a bit constrained but there are lots of dead mongols.

On the other hand, at about their third attempt the Il-khan wing got well established and are now moving into Anatolia and approaching the coast of the East Med. I've had two major scuffles with them and was lucky with 'enemy splintering-white peace' event both times.

In your favour when you're fighting the Mongols is if you can rout one of their big 20k regiments, it seems to disappear quite often, rather than retreat and recover. So let the big blob break up into sieges etc and then pick them off, till the overall odds favour you. A good mindset (& this is v 20th C I know) is an elastic defense combined with lots of rear area raiding (you can often grab back provinces they've taken if you have a few decent sized armies around - not big enough to win battles but often big enough to complete a siege fairly quickly).

 

[jordarkelf]

If you can survive the initial onslaught, the Mongols will eventually break up. They have many harsh events that will splinter the realm into tiny independent factions, and usually will begin fighting themselves. This is then the time to strike and take back the lands.
Since the Mongol superstack is very hard to beat, it often helps to just go behind their backs and reconquer your provinces, then do as loki100 says and destroy the superstacks when attrition from sieging and endless warring has worn them down.