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What happens if there are no crusades?

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I was just pondering some things. The defeat of the East Roman (Byzantine) forces under Emperor Romanus IV by the Seljuk sultan Alp Arslan at Manzikert in the 1080s led to the appeal by Constantinople for help from the Catholic powers of western Europe, which eventually led to the crusades. Suppose some enterprising person begins the game as the Roman Empire, and smashes the Seljuks, before beginning the new expansion of the Roman Empire. Wouldn't it make the crusades not happen?

(I realise that there would still be a great game with feudal maneuvering, but still, Crusader Kings and all)

Just pondering...:)
 
I guess there are still other possibilities to expand the Christian world with fure and sword. Take for example the Iberian peninsula, or the Baltics.

OTOH, you're right, the idea of the Crusades evolved from the speech of Pope Urban (?) on behalf of the (Eastern) Roman Emperor...

But gamewise, I don't think that would make a difference. There should always be a reason to massacre Muslims on the way to Jerusalem.
Remember the target for the crusaders was the Holy Land, and not to help some Emperor to regain Anatolia.;)
 
Originally posted by Tambourmajor
IOTOH, you're right, the idea of the Crusades evolved from the speech of Pope Urban (?) on behalf of the (Eastern) Roman Emperor...
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The idea of the crusades came very much from the iberian peninsula, where roman christendom had been clashing with the muslims for years. In all probability it evolved from the muslim concept of Jihad. Urban II's call to crusade was a new scale to it all, but hardly a new idea.

I'd hate to be fured!:D

It is an interesting question, however. There is not much point of going directly to the holy land if the Byzantines or other christians hold it - at least not as a target for crusades. However, as stated in your post, the northern and iberian theatres offer plenty of room for religious fun and games.

EF
 
unless they take the EU2 approach which is that the vent will fire regardless :rolleyes:


I hope the crusades AREN'T a definate, and I hope that they DON'T happen when they did historicaly simply because its hard coded that way.....
 
I would hope that the crusades had different triggers for firing off than just that. Perhaps Cordoba pushes the Christians back into France, or the Horde heads into Germany. I think for a game like this, crusades shouldn't be modeled by being straightjacketed to history. If different but equally pressing problems develop, they're should be a similar response from the Pope.
 
Originally posted by PriestOfDiscord
I would hope that the crusades had different triggers for firing off than just that. Perhaps Cordoba pushes the Christians back into France, or the Horde heads into Germany. I think for a game like this, crusades shouldn't be modeled by being straightjacketed to history. If different but equally pressing problems develop, they're should be a similar response from the Pope.
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Heh, probably not Cordoba, but maybe the Almoravids or Almohads. The Cordoba Caliphate had collapsed a few decades before 1066, and Muslim Spain by this point was divided into over a dozen petty states...
 
Originally posted by Demetrios
Heh, probably not Cordoba, but maybe the Almoravids or Almohads. The Cordoba Caliphate had collapsed a few decades before 1066, and Muslim Spain by this point was divided into over a dozen petty states...
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Hah, of course. Trust me to have my dates wrong. :D
 
Originally posted by Dark Knight
So the Crusades start 50 or 100 years later than historically. Much of a muchness.

And, anyway, there should be plenty to do in the game that has no connection to the Crusades.
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Of course, but what is the point in naming a game Crusader Kings when there are no crusades... :D

EF, of course the fighting between Christian and Muslim rulers on the iberian peninsula already made use (is this a proper term?) of the idea of a Holy War Against The Heathens, but I meant the whole idea of a pope calling for an "armed pilgrimage" to the Holy Land that first emerged with the 1st Crusade.

And of course, I meant with fire and sword but I am too dumb to type it correctly :D

PREPARE TO BE CONVERTED BY FUR AND SUIT!
 
It would be amusing if, rather than the Crusades as we know them, the game could actually work out so that various Islamic states and peoples push deep into Europe instead. Forget pushing the Christians out of Spain, how about pushing them out of Italy? :)
 
Originally posted by Vynd
It would be amusing if, rather than the Crusades as we know them, the game could actually work out so that various Islamic states and peoples push deep into Europe instead. Forget pushing the Christians out of Spain, how about pushing them out of Italy? :)
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Just what did you think the Normans invades Sicily for?
 
Originally posted by Vynd
It would be amusing if, rather than the Crusades as we know them, the game could actually work out so that various Islamic states and peoples push deep into Europe instead. Forget pushing the Christians out of Spain, how about pushing them out of Italy? :)
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It certainly wouldn't be hard to do, atleast pushing out of southern italy.

But seriously i think in the west atleast they'd start clashing with the mongols for Europe.
 
Originally posted by Vynd
It would be amusing if, rather than the Crusades as we know them, the game could actually work out so that various Islamic states and peoples push deep into Europe instead. Forget pushing the Christians out of Spain, how about pushing them out of Italy? :)
Click to expand...

Fat chance when all Islamic states are AI-controlled!:D

EF
 
I would think that an appeal by Urban II in 1099 is pretty much hardcoded; I mean, no Crusades = no formation of the Teutonic Order also. :(

I wonder if the carnage at Jerusalem is to be represented?
 
Originally posted by Doc
I would think that an appeal by Urban II in 1099 is pretty much hardcoded; I mean, no Crusades = no formation of the Teutonic Order also. :(

I wonder if the carnage at Jerusalem is to be represented?
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So what if the Teutonic Order doesn't form? Or the Templars etc.

My guess would be that there are certain circumstances which would lead a pope to call a crusade. Whether those circumstances arise in 1096 or 1080 or 1119 is more than likely up to how the various dynasties interact in the game.

Even if there is no appeal from the Byzantine Emperor to the Pope, there will likely be a time when the Pope just gets tired of the Holy Land being in infidel hands and calls a crusade.:)
 
I did an Uchronia-style skit where Harold won Hastings and Norman vitality was severely curtailed. In this one southern Italy and Sicily remain a patchwork of Moorish, Norman and neo-Lombard ministates and instead of a crusade aimed at bailing out the Greeks and making safe the Levant there is instead a crusade-like operation against Muslim Sicily in the first couple of decades of the C12, later Mediterranean crusades being relatively unambitious defensive affairs. Byzantium is more or less removed from Anatolia by 1200 but due to no Fourth Crusade and no Normans they remain a presence in Europe into the fifteenth century and lasting into modern times. By contrast the Northern Crusades ('Rodforheriging') are much more successful, England and Flanders being a political and cultural adjunct of Scandinavia. This leads to a massively enlarged German crusader duchy incorporating not just Livonia and Prussia but Samogitia, Ingria and Pskov. Things went a bit slower in Spain (less foreign help, but that's about it) resulting in Andalusia remaining free into the Age of Exploration.

Just bollocks, of course, but hey.
 
No crusades!!!

If no one calls a crusade, that means there will be much slower advancement in castle-building, armour types, ship building, no Marco Polo and eastern trade, no knight orders (other than the knights of Santiago). The only way to get these tech and trade advances should be sending a crusade to Almohad Iberia, the Holy Land circa 1100+ (for goodness sake please), and North Africa (just like in real life!!!). The only reason German and Polish knights wanted to go to the Baltic was LAND=WEALTH and they could not afford to go to Palestine. If there's no crusades to anywhere, then how will they attone for their sins!!!
 
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And there's always the Orthodox "heathens" to kill...

Just read this book called "The Crusades: 1095-1197" which is quite good, by a chap who lectures at Royall Holloway uni.

Anyways, he reckons that the Crusades proper in Outremer created the whole spiritual and special purpose of crusading: the Reconquista in Spain was only granted similar spiritual privileges by the Pope in 1123 or something.

I also doubt that the Spanish lords would like some Frenchies or Germans coming to fight on their behalf, only to ask for rewards later...

But I'm sure that at one point the Holy Land will be threatened, and at one point the Pope will call a crusade. And this will start the whole thing going.
 
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