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Vapiritapiri

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Aug 4, 2021
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Now that is a bit broad since we'd need to point out WHEN germany would fall. Would it be during the sudeten crisis or battle of france? The anschluss france intervening? Either way how would such a thing impact central and eastern europe foreign politics? Would the soviet union start demanding and attacking the baltics? Would poland be able to stand against them? Or romania would their territory in the east be safe?
 
I see two possible inflection points. The first would be a strong military response by France, Britain and the Little Entente to Germany's re-occupation of the Rheinland, or to the Austrian anschluss. The second would be armed Czech resistance to giving up the Sudetenland, coupled with French and British military operations.

But in any of those cases, I think Germany folds and negotiates before suffering military defeat and occupation.

Once the Allies have let things go as far as the Polish guarantee, the only way Germany loses is if Poland fights hard, the Soviet Union does not invade Poland, and a vastly overhauled French army effectively goes on the offensive in the west.
 
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The USSR wouldn't have gone to any war without R-M Pact. Stalin was actually pretty careful guy, he wouldn't have risked the war against the united (at least in his mind) capitalist world.
Also, Poland could stand pretty hard against Soviet army, due to better terrain to be defended, especially limited capacity of Soviet logistsics there. Plus possibly massive inflow of Allied military help form the west would have been possible via dense railroad network, not blocked by Germany bearing in mind their neutrality al least. If Germany would have joined the Soviets, we'd have another R-M Pact situation, but reversed.
 
An interesting scenario is if France successfully repels the invasion (maybe Germany sticks to its original plan, which the French had prepared for, as opposed to going through the Ardennes?). Germany suffers losses it can't afford, and a renewed Allied counter-offensive causes it to collapse.

In this case, the Soviets and Italians are viewed by most of the world as de facto German allies but not part of the war (neither is going to join an obviously losing war), much like Spain was historically, but both will survive. The Soviets have won the Winter War, conquered half of Poland and started the process of incorporating the Baltic states (although depending on how quickly the wheels come off for Germany, the formal annexations of the Baltic states may not have happened yet once it becomes obvious things are going wrong, which might affect Stalin's actions).

Stalin historically was very reluctant to fight a peer power (he sat out WWII until Barbarossa, and avoided direct warfare with NATO afterwards), so he's not going to start anything, but he'll be viewed with a ton of suspicion by the rest of the world. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was seen (especially following the invasion of Poland) as aligning the Soviets with the Germans, and now he has obviously backed the wrong horse (which would weaken his domestic position if anyone wanted to oppose him). Expect more purges at this point. Not sure what he would do if the victorious Allies, newly confident in their strength and with a new belief that appeasement is a flawed policy, demand he withdraw from Poland; he might agree (and even from the rest of his new conquests) in order to buy peace (especially as his army will still be recovering from the debacles of the Winter War, and now has no reasonable ally to turn to).

The US is still isolationist, but the Sino-Japanese War is still on-going and escalating (and without the European War to distract them, France and England may take notice; at the very least, Japan will be unable to peacefully occupy French Indochina, which may leave them seeking other options to cut off that supply line to Chiang), and the US does care very much about China. Mussolini's ambitions are largely unfulfilled, but he has no logical allies. The French and British are more confident, but are facing a rising demand for decolonization (especially in India) that they will probably botch.
 
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Had France attacked Germany first, it's entirely possible that the Germans lose.
 
Had France attacked Germany first, it's entirely possible that the Germans lose.
First, as in, sep.1st 1939?

I actually wrote a lengthy piece on reddit a long time ago discussion why I think it would not have changed much.

Basically the main point is that the Germans actually wrapped the Poles up very very quickly, as in, within two weeks they had them beaten and in cauldrons, and could have left the sieges and mop up operations to second echelon forces while the Wehrmacht's spearhead forces are loaded back on trains and sent westward for action against the French

The French meanwhile would have to cover a very great amount of ground in those two to three weeks in order to get into any seriously threatening position. I live in southwest Germany and know the region, a French army advancing at the speed of WW1 against light but determined resistance won't cover more than 20-25 km a day and that barely puts them at the gates of Ludwigshafen and pushing north of it by the time the Wehrmacht loads its tanks back onto flatbeds somewhere in Poland. Ludwigshafen was / still is a major industrial town but Germany isn't going to fall just because this one city is lost. And then time runs against the French. They're 150 km deep in southwest Germany, positioned against the river Rhine to their east and maybe (if they're really good) with one or two bridge heads and a major industrial town under their control, but the Germans have interior lines, larger numbers, a secure back with the USSR friendly, and are preparing the counterattack. There's no good place for France to go from there, it's a long fighting retreat for them from southwest Germany all the way back into France
 
Stalin would probably try and look for minor opportunities if there was a war in the West in the period 1938-1941, but as above I think he would be extremely wary of provoking France.

Even trying to grab Bessarabia would be massively risky if France has just beaten Germany and is still on decent terms with Romania. The Soviets would maybe try and secure minor gains in Karelia and Estonia/Latvia, since these are valuable strategically for the Soviet Union, but are not areas where the Allies are closely involved. Otherwise a quick Allied victory in Europe prevents (or makes redundant) almost all of the Soviet Union's foreign policy in 1939-1941.
 
First, as in, sep.1st 1939?

I actually wrote a lengthy piece on reddit a long time ago discussion why I think it would not have changed much.

Basically the main point is that the Germans actually wrapped the Poles up very very quickly, as in, within two weeks they had them beaten and in cauldrons, and could have left the sieges and mop up operations to second echelon forces while the Wehrmacht's spearhead forces are loaded back on trains and sent westward for action against the French

The French meanwhile would have to cover a very great amount of ground in those two to three weeks in order to get into any seriously threatening position. I live in southwest Germany and know the region, a French army advancing at the speed of WW1 against light but determined resistance won't cover more than 20-25 km a day and that barely puts them at the gates of Ludwigshafen and pushing north of it by the time the Wehrmacht loads its tanks back onto flatbeds somewhere in Poland. Ludwigshafen was / still is a major industrial town but Germany isn't going to fall just because this one city is lost. And then time runs against the French. They're 150 km deep in southwest Germany, positioned against the river Rhine to their east and maybe (if they're really good) with one or two bridge heads and a major industrial town under their control, but the Germans have interior lines, larger numbers, a secure back with the USSR friendly, and are preparing the counterattack. There's no good place for France to go from there, it's a long fighting retreat for them from southwest Germany all the way back into France

Ok but at least it points toward that the French did not meant the Saar Offensive seriously (okay in reality they cannot really do anything serious AND doing the mobilization). Because you just cannot use the Saarland/ as a jumpoff point as demonstrated by Patton in 1944.
 
Ok but at least it points toward that the French did not meant the Saar Offensive seriously (okay in reality they cannot really do anything serious AND doing the mobilization). Because you just cannot use the Saarland/ as a jumpoff point as demonstrated by Patton in 1944.
Indeed so. The French would have to target a breakthrough straight towards the Ludwigshafen/Mannheim area, in my opinion. You get there through the wide open Rhine valley which has very open, clear, flat territory between the river and the hills of the palatinate forest, about 15 to 25 km wide. Between Wörth and Bad Bergzabern basically. This is where you punch through, although you have to keep an eye on the left flank because the Germans can use North South running railways to ferry troops from the Ruhr into the hills and mountains along Germany's western border. The right flank is the Rhine. To critically hit the German war economy the French would need to drive north and cross the Rhine at Mainz to seize the Frankfurt area, and somehow race further north to reach the Cologne / Ruhr area. But this is impossible to achieve with the French army of 1939 in just a few weeks, even against moderate to light opposition. The distances are too great, and there was German opposition even if just 20 or so infantry divisions. Maybe the Soviet army of 1945 could do it, against the German army of the west of sep. 1939 although I have my doubts
 
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Indeed so. The French would have to target a breakthrough straight towards the Ludwigshafen/Mannheim area, in my opinion. You get there through the wide open Rhine valley which has very open, clear, flat territory between the river and the hills of the palatinate forest, about 15 to 25 km wide. Between Wörth and Bad Bergzabern basically. This is where you punch through, although you have to keep an eye on the left flank because the Germans can use North South running railways to ferry troops from the Ruhr into the hills and mountains along Germany's western border. The right flank is the Rhine. To critically hit the German war economy the French would need to drive north and cross the Rhine at Mainz to seize the Frankfurt area, and somehow race further north to reach the Cologne / Ruhr area. But this is impossible to achieve with the French army of 1939 in just a few weeks, even against moderate to light opposition. The distances are too great, and there was German opposition even if just 20 or so infantry divisions. Maybe the Soviet army of 1945 could do it, against the German army of the west of sep. 1939 although I have my doubts

Occupying but at least denying to use the railway/motorway chokepoint of Karlsruhe would be a welcome addition . Let's think bigger ;-)
 
First, as in, sep.1st 1939?

I actually wrote a lengthy piece on reddit a long time ago discussion why I think it would not have changed much.

Basically the main point is that the Germans actually wrapped the Poles up very very quickly, as in, within two weeks they had them beaten and in cauldrons, and could have left the sieges and mop up operations to second echelon forces while the Wehrmacht's spearhead forces are loaded back on trains and sent westward for action against the French

Were you saying it wouldn't have mattered to the invasion of Poland or it wouldn't have changed the entire war?

Even if Poland's back was broken in two weeks, if the Germans are sending panzer divisions to the Saar to engage determined French offensives in October then I don't see how Fall Gelb looks anything like it did historically.

It also seems likely Warsaw and even other cities would hold out longer if the Luftwaffe was redeployed.

I also dimly recall something about Germany not having enough ammunition on hand in fall 39 to fight two full campaigns.
 
Were you saying it wouldn't have mattered to the invasion of Poland or it wouldn't have changed the entire war?

Even if Poland's back was broken in two weeks, if the Germans are sending panzer divisions to the Saar to engage determined French offensives in October then I don't see how Fall Gelb looks anything like it did historically.

It also seems likely Warsaw and even other cities would hold out longer if the Luftwaffe was redeployed.

I also dimly recall something about Germany not having enough ammunition on hand in fall 39 to fight two full campaigns.
No one ever has enough ammunition. There is no such thing as "enough ammunition" in industrialized warfare :)

And yes my explanation only sought to apply to the situation as of September / October 1939. I didn't mean to say that an early French offensive into the palatinate / Saar wouldn't have any effects, certainly it would change some things. Germany and France get into a big ol shooting match a lot earlier, ammo and supplies get used earlier, some German towns and cities fall. But given that the French even under optimistic assumptions only really get so far before the Germans stop them with numerically superior forces, I don't think it can change the big picture. The French of 1939 didn't have the planes and tanks they had in May 1940, their arms production had only been crash started in the second half of 1938 so the French army and air force of September 1939 was going to have to work prudently with the material it had in the field, and be careful not to not expend it all too fast on high speed, high energy, high casualties operations because the war factories in France were still only starting to produce material in larger numbers whereas the German factories were a bit further on the ramp up to war production.


Ultimately, barring sudden surprises and accidents of history, the German superiority in numbers, and their initially larger war production, will result in a very quick end and reversal to a French advance. You need 3:1 superiority in order to achieve success in frontal attacks, and a push down the Rhine, or across the Rhine, would totally be a frontal attack. The French only have such a superiority in the first 2-3 weeks, are down to parity by mid October, and will face multiple counter offensives with local German superiority by November. So that's when they will fall back onto the maginot line, at the latest.

If they set their mind to a thorough wrecking of the German towns and countryside, demolishing bridges, railways, factories, farms, telephone systems, switches, canals and store houses, they can pretty much forestall any German offensive against the maginot line until at least summer 1940 or so which would (from their point of view) be a very great advantage gained. Hardly a war winning move, though, as they would only be able to to that in the territory seized in those first weeks i.e. the very southwest of Germany, Saar and Palatinate and parts of the Mosel region. The regions facing Belgium and the Netherlands are too far north and not affected. So, there's still going to be a phony war phase, a German buildup, naval battles and 1940 will see the initiative solidly on the German side with greater numbers, better and more weapons, and potentially the same breakthrough successes as historically.

But one thing that is certainly going to make a difference is the fighting spirit and leadership quality of the French army. I mean in some ways these are baked into the scenario, you don't get a strong push into southwest Germany with the mindset and awful leadership of the historical French army of 1939. The offensive mindset, willingness to take losses, and better leadership are prerequisites to them launching such an attack in the first place, let alone pushing it 150 km or so into Germany, against opposition. If they do that they not only have a better army than they had, they would also learn from those weeks of intense operations a lot about their own weaknesses that will make their performance in summer 1940 a lot better. A faster reaction loop at the high command, better coordination, faster rallying of reaction forces, experience with high speed large operations, experience fighting the German armor, that's what was missing in the French army historically in May 1940. Give them that, and they might beat the German offensive altogether, bomb the huge traffic jam in the Ardennes and clog the offensive up before it develops. Doesn't stop the other big push coming through Belgium, doesn't magically make the luftwaffe disappear, but certainly might reduce the risk of catastrophic defeat in May 1940.

Long term, God is on the side of the bigger battalions. Germany with her back secured by uncle Stalin is going to push the French and British badly. But it might stalemate and then the long game sets in, who has more industry and resources and can turn that into combat power. France and UK have the edge there.
 
To answer the OP: The US might not enter the war at the European theater, at least if it does, its interest will be very different as it historically was.
 
The political factors are as much, if not more, important than the purely military. I do believe that a strong Franco-British pushback at the Rhineland, at Munich or at the start of hostilities in Poland, would have had very large after-effects. Earlier, the 'Little Entente' could have backed the play, but even as late as the historical outbreak of war, Hitler's support at home would have plummeted and the Army - already very dubious about starting another war - could have moved decisively against him.
 
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The political factors are as much, if not more, important than the purely military. I do believe that a strong Franco-British pushback at the Rhineland, at Munich or at the start of hostilities in Poland, would have had very large after-effects. Earlier, the 'Little Entente' could have backed the play, but even as late as the historical outbreak of war, Hitler's support at home would have plummeted and the Army - already very dubious about starting another war - could have moved decisively against him.

The French left in June 30, which also cost them the Belgian alliance ... if they had the guts and the bucks they could have just stay and everything else is waived away. But in the economic crisis they decided that they have to tighten the budget, even under these circumstances.

So the chance that they react in 36 was close to nil. That time they were after February 34 crisis, the polics while deeply divided still mistrusted the army (given on how Petain and circle tried to utilize the miltary defeat to push France into a right-wing dictatorship it cannot be said it was not justified) which meant that the peacetime army was more-or-less contructed to be incapable of any large scale maneuver. Thus quite a change in the political and economics factors are needed from the French side.
 
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I agree with you, mostly. Whatever changes we make to history in order to stop Germany early, they are unlikely to be small.

British political, military and financial support was also necessary before France would act - support that Britain was quite unwilling to give. But had Britain endorsed and supported France, Germany could have been stopped.
 
Define stopped? I think plenty in the military high command would have been pleased to just restore the 1914, maybe even leave Alsace-Lorraine to France. They certainly were onboard with this, but for the other things the regime wanted for their country, that varies a lot.

If falling then would have meant 1914 borders, maybe without Alsace-Lorraine, I suspect the more realistic right and the military, might could have lived with this.