What if Germany liberated Poland after keeping Danzig and it's earlier boundaries?

[AdityaMookerjee]

Like Germany reoccupied the Rhineland, what if it occupied it's earlier territories given to Poland, and liberated the rest of the nation? This might have changed the course of events on the globe. I wonder how HOI4 would have played if this had been considered as a possible scenario?

 

[makson]

It is impossible scenario. If Polish governont, would remain independent it will keep fighting for its land. If it would be German puppet, Western Allies would demand from Germany to make it independent to stop war.
And this is even without the consideration of Soviets entering Poland and their deal with Germany.

 

[AdityaMookerjee]

I meant Germany defeat Poland, take back it's previous territories, and give Poland full independence. The Allies wouldn't feel the better for it, but would they want to fight Germany?

 

[makson]

Full independent Poland would not acceppt such a peace terms, neither would Western Allies.

 

[AdityaMookerjee]

I meant Germany defeat Poland, take back it's previous territories, and give Poland full independence. The Allies wouldn't feel the better for it, but would they want to fight Germany?

Germany could then have used it's economic influence to be the foremost European nation. If France persisted with the war, after defeating France, France would be required to guarantee that it would not pursue war with Germany, but not need to give up or pay Germany anything. I feel sure things would have worked out.

 

[egslim]

Germany could then have used it's economic influence to be the foremost European nation. If France persisted with the war, after defeating France, France would be required to guarantee that it would not pursue war with Germany, but not need to give up or pay Germany anything. I feel sure things would have worked out.

Nope, because Danzig was the trigger for WWII, not the cause.

Nobody except the Poles cared much for Danzig:
- Hitler wanted lebensraum in the east, so he used Danzig as an excuse to either weaken or conquer Poland.
- Britain and France could not accept German use of (threatening with) military force in European politics, so they had to declare war at some point.

By August '39 British rearmament plans were nearing completion, the Dominions were on-board, and the population supported a war to stop German expansion. So the British government drew a line in the sand in front of anything Hitler might cast his eye on, then waited for him to cross it.

 

[AdityaMookerjee]

Nope, because Danzig was the trigger for WWII, not the cause.

Nobody except the Poles cared much for Danzig:
- Hitler wanted lebensraum in the east, so he used Danzig as an excuse to either weaken or conquer Poland.
- Britain and France could not accept German use of (threatening with) military force in European politics, so they had to declare war at some point.

By August '39 British rearmament plans were nearing completion, the Dominions were on-board, and the population supported a war to stop German expansion. So the British government drew a line in the sand in front of anything Hitler might cast his eye on, then waited for him to cross it.

Even if Hitler hadn't become dictator of Germany, the punitive measures of the allies on it was both damaging and demeaning, and Germany would have retaliated at how it saw the situation, sooner or a little while later. Hitler just happened to be the leader then, who stood up to the Allies. The Allies and Germany misunderstood each other. Germany had suffered no damage to it's infrastructure and industry, unlike France. The Allies didn't think that they could fight another war. They couldn't do anything else under the circumstances.
About the British wanting to go to war under Chamberlain, I don't think so. Chamberlain's miscalculation was recognised once Germany invaded Poland, not before. The British hailed his efforts to come to an agreement with Germany.

 

[kettyo]

Not going to happen after Hitler's betrayal of the Munich agreement. It was such a severe blow to his credibility that after that event no Western power would deal with him anymore.

Maybe if he only used the turmoil in Czech to get a more German-aligned elite in power there but not occupying it, maybe then the West would have remained open for negotiations but i think even then only if the demands for Danzig happened many years later, not in the next year. Hitler was very greedy, Sudetenland half a year after Austria, and Danzig a year later. It can't work this fast. Slow reconquista is a real option, rushing everyone and betraying agreements in the process is not. The Spanish reconquista lasted more than 700 years

 

[kettyo]

The British hailed his efforts to come to an agreement with Germany.

Sorry but you have a completely wrong picture of the events.

Yes, the British elite and mainstream wanted an agreement with Hitler which materialized in the Munich agreement. Hitler betrayed this half a year later. After that point not a single serious person in the West contemplated negotiating with him again.

 

[Funki83]

What if, what if,,,...…. bla bla.
as a german, i believe Hitler might stopped after the Fall of Poland. He wanted to negate the contract of versaille. Which means to delete Poland from the map.
Who knows what happened if the allied let him pass. I think he might went for USSR.
the german reich was nearly out of money, they put all into military. He wouldnt survived the upcoming finance crises, so in this case he set all on one card, which meant war.

Dont be a fool to think that he might installed a polish state after winning the war. Poland was no state for him. It was just the result of versaille he wanted to correct.

 

[Hemothep]

Hitlers real goal was neither the UK, France or Poland. His main goal was the Soviet Union. He would never have stopped after Danzig, because everything he did was focused on creating german Lebensraum in the east.
He might have made peace with the UK, France, the BeNeLux or the US, but he would have never agreed to an independant Poland. Without Poland at least being a german puppet he can't send his armies east, but he needs to if he wants to defeat Communism and secure the fertile lands of the ukraine and the oil fields in the caucasus.

On the other side: Austria, Sudentenland, Bohemia and Memel all weren't a red line for the western allies, because these were all territores Germany could set some kind of claim on. All were an integral part of either the German Empire or Austria-Hungary just a generation prior, but Poland as a whole would never have been aggreeable to anyone, while just Danzig was never going to be acceptable to Hitler.

 

[kettyo]

He wouldnt survived the upcoming finance crises, so in this case he set all on one card, which meant war.

I'm more on the impression he didn't really want an all out war, he did brinkmanship which rather escalated into it.

 

[Gefallener_Held]

I will just mention Pat Buchanan's excellent Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War.

 

[AdityaMookerjee]

Not going to happen after Hitler's betrayal of the Munich agreement. It was such a severe blow to his credibility that after that event no Western power would deal with him anymore.

Maybe if he only used the turmoil in Czech to get a more German-aligned elite in power there but not occupying it, maybe then the West would have remained open for negotiations but i think even then only if the demands for Danzig happened many years later, not in the next year. Hitler was very greedy, Sudetenland half a year after Austria, and Danzig a year later. It can't work this fast. Slow reconquista is a real option, rushing everyone and betraying agreements in the process is not. The Spanish reconquista laster more than 700 years

Hitler was undoubtedly a flawed and impaired politician, but if Germany was a stronger state than France and Britain in Europe, who wouldn't have acted like Hitler did? Germany disarmed after the First World War, but it was a stronger nation than France then. France and Britain were in no position to enforce terms on Germany militarily. The Germans saw this, and realised what their own political leaders were about. Hitler seemed the only sensible leader in a way, and perhaps he was politically unopposed by anyone else. The Allies bluff was exposed by Hitler. After Sudetenland was annexed by Germany, how important was the rest of what had been Czechoslovakia to the Allies? What was to happen to it?

 

[AdityaMookerjee]

Sorry but you have a completely wrong picture of the events.

Yes, the British elite and mainstream wanted an agreement with Hitler which materialized in the Munich agreement. Hitler betrayed this half a year later. After that point not a single serious person in the West contemplated negotiating with him again.

After the Munich Agreement, why wasn't Danzig and the territories that belonged to Germany before the First World War, not returned to Germany?

 

[Funki83]

Germany disarmed after the First World War, but it was a stronger nation than France then. France and Britain were in no position to enforce terms on Germany militarily.

German military was close before collaps, they almost ran out of ammunition in poland. The points was tactics , ground -air coordination by radio etc. (Blitzkrieg eben).
On numbers, allied could have face Germany. But they stuck in that great war mod.

After the Munich Agreement, why wasn't Danzig and the territories that belonged to Germany before the First World War, not returned to Germany?

they couldnt delete a state they formed 20 years ago. If they returned it to Germany, then they had to return the rest to Russia.

 

[kettyo]

After the Munich Agreement, why wasn't Danzig and the territories that belonged to Germany before the First World War, not returned to Germany?

There was no conflict with Poland in 1938. In fact Hitler tried to get Polish support for the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia.

 

[kettyo]

Germany disarmed after the First World War, but it was a stronger nation than France then. France and Britain were in no position to enforce terms on Germany militarily.

Hitler wanted to actually avoid a war with Britain and France since everyone thought in such a conflict Germany can't win.

The swift collapse of Poland and especially France later came with a shocking surprise even to the Germans.

 

[hkrommel]

Germany could then have used it's economic influence to be the foremost European nation. If France persisted with the war, after defeating France, France would be required to guarantee that it would not pursue war with Germany, but not need to give up or pay Germany anything. I feel sure things would have worked out.

Nope. Germany was still very weak economically and free Europe could have just turned to the United States which was, by far, the most powerful nation on the planet economically. That's why Hitler went to war in the first place. Lebensraum was an attempt to, among other ideological things, create enough of an internal market for the German economy to match the United States. Now, it would take a century to get there most likely, assuming the Germans took the land, but that was the plan.

Even if Hitler hadn't become dictator of Germany, the punitive measures of the allies on it was both damaging and demeaning, and Germany would have retaliated at how it saw the situation, sooner or a little while later.

Except not. Nobody, not even the DNVP, wanted more than rearmament and negotiation for old territories. The invading other countries bit was all Hitler.

Hitler was undoubtedly a flawed and impaired politician, but if Germany was a stronger state than France and Britain in Europe, who wouldn't have acted like Hitler did?

People with morals. Germany wasn't a stronger state than Britain at least. It had a tiny navy, which meant it was instantly blockaded the moment the war started.

Also, Germany lost.

 

[balmung60]

Even if Hitler hadn't become dictator of Germany, the punitive measures of the allies on it was both damaging and demeaning, and Germany would have retaliated at how it saw the situation, sooner or a little while later.

Reminds me of when France responded to the punitive measures inflicted on it after the Franco-Prussian War by declaring war on everyone.

No, wait, they put on their big boy pants, paid back the reparations (which were harsher than Versailles) ahead of schedule and got back to more or less business as usual.