What if Germany liberated Poland after keeping Danzig and it's earlier boundaries?

[olm]

I wonder if things would have gone any differently had the Germans tried some more salami tactics with Danzig, instead of a blatant all out invasion of the whole Poland. Like moving a small unit into the city avoiding any direct aggression towards the Polish garrison in Westerplatte, with a larger backup waiting over the border, while the nazi controlled local administration declares "unification with the fatherland".

 

[Vlad123]

I don't think Stalin would have ever dared to start a war first on his own, taking a risk of all capitalist pigs to ally against the USSR

Wrong, the russian army are huge, and they permits a lot of loses...the USA not want to spill blood for the European liberty and UK are protected by the navy...the URSS are soon to attack, and Hitler make a the attack 1 week before URSS attack, if they found a lot of tanks,oil...and other things can are usefull for a invasion, the t-34 are born for the road...and in russian the road are ugly, in europe are good...

 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

Wrong, the russian army are huge, and they permits a lot of loses...the USA not want to spill blood for the European liberty and UK are protected by the navy...the URSS are soon to attack, and Hitler make a the attack 1 week before URSS attack, if they found a lot of tanks,oil...and other things can are usefull for a invasion, the t-34 are born for the road...and in russian the road are ugly, in europe are good...

The Soviets did mass troops at the border (as they did with other potentially hostile borders) and did plan to eventually attack Germany (although this was meant to be several years down the road and originally was to ideally to be done after Germany had bled itself dry in a second round of trench warfare against France). The Soviets were not in any way poised to strike in a week however and there is no convincing evidence that shows so.

 

[bz249]

The Soviets did mass troops at the border (as they did with other potentially hostile borders) and did plan to eventually attack Germany (although this was meant to be several years down the road and originally was to ideally to be done after Germany had bled itself dry in a second round of trench warfare against France). The Soviets were not in any way poised to strike in a week however and there is no convincing evidence that shows so.

The fact that they could not efficiently defend is a proof of that (lack of supply, lots of broken down equipment etc). That was not an army refitted for an immediate offensive.

 

[kettyo]

I don't think Stalin would have ever dared to start a war first on his own, taking a risk of all capitalist pigs to ally against the USSR

Depends on how confident he feels. He did attack Finland on his own after all even while they were still suffering from purging the military command big time.

 

[kettyo]

The Soviets did mass troops at the border (as they did with other potentially hostile borders) and did plan to eventually attack Germany (although this was meant to be several years down the road and originally was to ideally to be done after Germany had bled itself dry in a second round of trench warfare against France). The Soviets were not in any way poised to strike in a week however and there is no convincing evidence that shows so.

Yeah it is just impossible that Stalin attacked the Reich on its height. He had an attitude to attack ones who are much weaker (Finland) or dying (Poland after fall of Warshaw) , kinda vulture mentality.

I think he might eventually attacked Poland after a deal with the Reich that the latter forbids any foreign support to Poland by a sea and land blockade portrayed as a stance of neutrality.

 

[Vlad123]

I think Stalin are soon to attack the reich because stalin has disbanded avery defense at border. OFC, have the border defense angaist a weak enemy like poland, but disband angaist the reich?

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

For the sake of truth the Reich never antagonized the USA, Hitler has kinda adored it.

This is patently false.

Adolph Hitler keeps a signed photo of Henry Ford on his desk and he is the model of A. But Henry Ford is far more Nazi than most Americans by a variety of measures - particularly anti-semitism, the use of Brownshirts to physically beat down the opposition, internal spies, and personal delusions - but the US government pushes Ford out of his own company during the war and puts Henry Ford II (who loathes his grandfather and his gunman) in charge after Edsel dies unexpectedly.

America and England are powerful countries subverted by Jewish interests against which National Socialism is directly opposed. Karl Haushofers design of the German-Russian-Japanese grand alliance of Geopolitics hand fed to Hitler through Hess and personal instruction in Landsberg Prison is designed to destroy this destructive influence in the world.

Hitler doesn’t kind of love America. Hitler doesn’t love Germany. Hitler loves nothing but Hitler’s megalomaniacal dreams.

 

[kettyo]

@Andre Bolkonsky There's a lot of truth in this but still prewar Hitler had a respect towards the USA because what he understood of it - in a very false way of course - made it kinda role model for him. USA was largely autark and he wanted to make Germany autark. From what he understood the USA has nearly exterminated the local inferior peoples - native Americans - and enslaved less inferior ones - blacks of African origin, and became a world power in the process, which he wanted Germany to become too. Of course this picture is very incomplete and wrong but that's basically what he perceived of it.

Even Roosevelt's extensive infrastructure projects in the New Deal kinda mirrored the same of the Reich (Reichsautobahnen etc).

 

[pithorr]

Depends on how confident he feels. He did attack Finland on his own after all even while they were still suffering from purging the military command big time.

That's quite another situation. The most poweful capitalist pigs were already fighting each other or were destroyed.
As the bonus he was actually allied with Hitler at that moment.

 

[kettyo]

That's quite another situation. The most poweful capitalist pigs were already fighting each other or were destroyed.
As the bonus he was actually allied with Hitler at that moment.

I can imagine Stalin moving on Poland also only if he's allied to the Reich.

This is a fragile image of course since the Reich didn't have good diplomats at all so couldn't fabricate this and also Stalin starting an offensive in Europe first is really dubious.

I can MAYBE imagine this happen years after 1939 when the Soviet Union - and the Reich too - is a lot stronger than it was in 1939.

 

[pithorr]

I can imagine Stalin moving on Poland also only if he's allied to the Reich.

This is a fragile image of course since the Reich didn't have good diplomats at all so couldn't fabricate this and also Stalin starting an offensive in Europe first is really dubious.

I can MAYBE imagine this happen years after 1939 when the Soviet Union - and the Reich too - is a lot stronger than it was in 1939.

Well, that's actually what happened IRL
I meant situation that the USSR is still alone island of socialist revolution in the ocean of evil and hostile capitalism.

 

[kettyo]

Well, that's actually what happened IRL
I meant situation that the USSR is still alone island of socialist revolution in the ocean of evil and hostile capitalism.

I think Stalin correctly concluded that defeating capitalism as a whole is out of reach, at least for the time being.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

This is a fragile image of course since the Reich didn't have good diplomats at all . . . .

What do you base this on? Diplomatically, the Reich got everything it wanted across the board up until the point their blood lust was apparent for all to see. And they negotiated a brilliant exit strategy that went into motion long before the downfall came that gave them the vast majority of them safe haven until they died of old age.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Well, that's actually what happened IRL
I meant situation that the USSR is still alone island of socialist revolution in the ocean of evil and hostile capitalism.

But Stalin was so kind in his treatment of Poland.

 

[Culise]

Depends on how confident he feels. He did attack Finland on his own after all even while they were still suffering from purging the military command big time.

Perhaps. The Soviet Army did act without allies, but Stalin only moved after ensuring that he had a free hand from Germany with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, and also making sure that Hitler couldn't betray him by pretending there was no such secret annex by waiting until Germany was thoroughly stuck in against the Allies. The initial demand to move the border only occurred October 1939, after the invasion of Poland was effectively complete and Germany alone and at war with both France and the UK. While it was taken alone, I would characterize it as an opportunistic act taken under the cover of a general European distraction that would prevent unification of any threats against him. As such, I feel like that doesn't really reflect on what Stalin would do if there was no general European conflict to keep them both distracted and infighting. It takes someone like Hitler to be delusional enough (and possibly lucky enough) to think he can take on all of Europe and win, and even he was willing to separate Stalin from France and the UK via diplomacy first.

 

[Dinglehoff]

This is patently false.

Adolph Hitler keeps a signed photo of Henry Ford on his desk and he is the model of A. But Henry Ford is far more Nazi than most Americans by a variety of measures - particularly anti-semitism, the use of Brownshirts to physically beat down the opposition, internal spies, and personal delusions - but the US government pushes Ford out of his own company during the war and puts Henry Ford II (who loathes his grandfather and his gunman) in charge after Edsel dies unexpectedly.

America and England are powerful countries subverted by Jewish interests against which National Socialism is directly opposed. Karl Haushofers design of the German-Russian-Japanese grand alliance of Geopolitics hand fed to Hitler through Hess and personal instruction in Landsberg Prison is designed to destroy this destructive influence in the world.

Hitler doesn’t kind of love America. Hitler doesn’t love Germany. Hitler loves nothing but Hitler’s megalomaniacal dreams.

How was Ford pushed out during the war?
I also recall reading online that Ford shut down his paper and expressed regret for being anti-semitic later, which I thought at the time must be post-war social maneuvering.

The USSR wouldn't be considered subverted also?

I haven't heard that he adored America anywhere besides here; but I have heard that some of their ethnic laws were pretty similar to ours at the time, and that he was impressed and frustrated by the German-Americans he encountered in the great war.

 

[kettyo]

What do you base this on? Diplomatically, the Reich got everything it wanted across the board up until the point their blood lust was apparent for all to see. And they negotiated a brilliant exit strategy that went into motion long before the downfall came that gave them the vast majority of them safe haven until they died of old age.

The Reich's politics was lacking good diplomatic sense. Most notably they've failed to recognize betraying the Munich agreement will shut down any negotiation potential with the Western Allies.

There wasn't a single good diplomat among their ranks that i know of.

 

[kettyo]

@Culise I agree.

Stalin most probably have waited for some bigger war to break out first before taking on Poland e.g. Japan getting into war with the Allies first.

Or maybe Stalin insisted on a joint attack on Poland with the Reich. That resulted in a similar outcome to real life just maybe the USSR making the first step.

 

[kettyo]

The USSR wouldn't be considered subverted also?

Subverted by Jews? I don't think so. Of course Reich propaganda against the USSR emphasised that but in reality most Jewish Bolsheviks were Trockyists and Stalin largely sidelined them, many of them in higher positions got purged, executed. Also the NKVD was gradually cleaned of Jews. The only high ranking Jewish Bolshevik who stayed with Stalin until the very end that i know of is Kaganovich but probably he has lost all of his Jewish identity by then. So one can conclude that Stalin has actually removed most of Jewish influence in the USSR.