What would a Carlist Spain look like?

[AvatarOfKhaine]

As the title says.

Does anyone have any information about or similar to a manifesto for the Carlists that's available in English and any sources in English that explain what a Carlist controlled Spain would look like.

 

[Kgw]

Hum... Carlist general Cabrera married an Englishwoman, but I don't think he wrote anything about his cause.

Carlism was a conservative, traditionalist movement, so probably a Carlist Spain would have become similar to the Two Sicilies Kingdom. After all, their motto was "God, Country, King", sometimes "old laws" (fueros) added... or not.

 

[AvatarOfKhaine]

Hum... Carlist general Cabrera married an Englishwoman, but I don't think he wrote anything about his cause.

Carlism was a conservative, traditionalist movement, so probably a Carlist Spain would have become similar to the Two Sicilies Kingdom. After all, their motto was "God, Country, King", sometimes "old laws" (fueros) added... or not.

But by the time of the third war, surely the Carlists would have seen the results of that?

I suppose I just want specifics, afterall traditionalism in the form of legitimism,manuelisms and carlism never succeeded so we don't really know the exact details. I want it more for KR and Vicky 2 AARs and playing than anything academic so if you know anything that couldn't have been used for a paper but would be fine for personal things that might help.

Do you know any Spanish sources that could be translated if there is little in English?

 

[pithorr]

Didn't they eventually become the part of Falanga? It would mean they actually gained some control...

 

[AvatarOfKhaine]

Didn't they eventually become the part of Falanga? It would mean they actually gained some control...

They were more co-opted than anything. So far as I know there was very little influence that they held. After all, Juan Carlos was not the Carlist heir and yet Franco was set on him (or for a time his father). This seems proof enough that the Carlist strength prior to the Civil War was suborned to Franco's personal causes.

 

[LordTempest]

Well, instead of being ruled by a nominally constitutionalist and liberal Queen you get to be ruled by a conservative and absolutist King instead. Yay!

You also get what counted for devolution in 19th Century Spain, which helps explain why Carlists were so strong in places like the Basque country. The biggest difference between the Carlists and other conservative and reactionary movements of the 19th century is that the Carlists were quite tolerant of decentralisation: provided you were Catholic and supported the rightful king they didn't much care what language you spoke or how you governed yourself.

Excepting the Civil War, sources in English on Spanish politics in general are few and far between -- I struggle to name a single one off the top of my head not written by Paul Preston. I doubt that there has been much written on Carlism in English outside of contemporary news reports and the like. For the purposes of Vicky AAR writing, I'd recommend Dillon's The Coming of Carlism if you can find it for a contemporary outsider's view of the state of Carlism and Spanish politics circa 1898.

For a KR AAR I would view Carlism much as Marx viewed it, or rather would have were it British, French or German. Carlism, and particularly later Carlism, is essentially a textbook example of what Marx derided as "feudal socialism" -- aristocrats using the trappings of socialism in order to win proletarian support in their conflict with both actual socialism and the bourgeoisie. The Carlists would therefore have much the same motivations as NatPops in the vein of Cardinal Innitzer or Huey Long: they would be fiercely anti-Syndicalist and strongly support the idea of "Catholic corporations" as a means of combating the influence of the CNT (In real life, the later Carlists set up their own "Catholic" unions, charities, clubs and cooperatives to rival those of the Spanish socialists.) Geopolitically, I would expect them to stay aloof of the three major alliances (unless perhaps Röhm comes to power) and to cultivate close ties with ither "independent"Catholic powers, the AUS and maybe the Russians.

 

[Kgw]

I gotta say that Marx quote about Carlism is quite fake. Strangely enough, it started to appear in late Francoism when Carlism turned towards a more leftist approach.

Also, Carlists probably'd hate nazis as much as they hate Falangistas… but they'll join them against a common enemy or faced no alternatives.

They were more co-opted than anything. So far as I know there was very little influence that they held. After all, Juan Carlos was not the Carlist heir and yet Franco was set on him (or for a time his father). This seems proof enough that the Carlist strength prior to the Civil War was suborned to Franco's personal causes.

Actually, they signed to rebel under Sanjurjo, a known Royalist*. They didn't sign anything with Franco (who was quite disconnected from the Carlist cause), but when he got the power in the Nationalist side, he kicked out any dissenter and basically told them: "What are you gonna do? Side with the Reds, Atheists and Traitors?"

* that Navarre was under general Mola, Republican -authoritarian, but no royalist- was a quite an irony.

 

[LordTempest]

I gotta say that Marx quote about Carlism is quite fake.

Marx didn't specifically mention Carlism when discussing feudal socialism in The Communist Manifesto -- again, likely because it was neither British, nor French, nor German; things that weren't tended not to appear on his radar -- but Carlism, particularly later Carlism, fits perfectly with the specific strain of feudal socialism which he decried way back in 1848. Feudal socialism is not technically the same thing as fascism, but they do often tend to be related.

 

[The-Doc]

It would be a perfect world of hidalgos, I'm sure.

 

[Kgw]

All Basques were "legally" hidalgos in 16th century Spain.

Marx didn't specifically mention Carlism when discussing feudal socialism in The Communist Manifesto -- again, likely because it was neither British, nor French, nor German; things that weren't tended not to appear on his radar -- but Carlism, particularly later Carlism, fits perfectly with the specific strain of feudal socialism which he decried way back in 1848. Feudal socialism is not technically the same thing as fascism, but they do often tend to be related.

I thought you meant an alleged quote from Marx about Carlism. Once in a while it makes an appearance in Spanish social media.

 

[pithorr]

I've just found out that PiS are Carlists!

 

[LordTempest]

I've just found out that PiS are Carlists!

I thought bringing the crown back was Korwin's shtick?

 

[pithorr]

I thought bringing the crown back was Korwin's shtick?

Details, details, Korwinists and PiSists are pretty interchangable each other