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There's no way that Greater Ethiopia would have made as much use of Werner von Braun as America did.
that is not the point. the point is that greater ethiopia (arbitrarily, randomly) can't make as much use of werner von braun as liberia, brazil, mongolia, chinese warlords, or australia, no matter what happens in the world.

according to the game, some nations are just uniquely incapable of matching others, completely disregarding the game state. i think the game state should matter, consistently.

this "lol your country is low int so fewer tech slots" is a mild nuisance, it's not nearly the disgrace that say scripted peace deals are (they are extremely toxic design), or the game giving away land you occupy w/o being able to fight. it's nevertheless cut from a similar cloth...in both cases, we simply disregard what happened on the game board and forcibly conclude that one nation with 2000 factories remains simply incapable of making iterated developments as well as others with 30. even if it has multiple 100% compliant countries which themselves have 5 slots working with it, still can't do it because reasons.
 
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that is not the point. the point is that greater ethiopia (arbitrarily, randomly) can't make as much use of werner von braun as liberia, brazil, mongolia, chinese warlords, or australia, no matter what happens in the world.

according to the game, some nations are just uniquely incapable of matching others, completely disregarding the game state. i think the game state should matter, consistently.

this "lol your country is low int so fewer tech slots" is a mild nuisance, it's not nearly the disgrace that say scripted peace deals are (they are extremely toxic design), or the game giving away land you occupy w/o being able to fight. it's nevertheless cut from a similar cloth...in both cases, we simply disregard what happened on the game board and forcibly conclude that one nation with 2000 factories remains simply incapable of making iterated developments as well as others with 30. even if it has multiple 100% compliant countries which themselves have 5 slots working with it, still can't do it because reasons.
I won't uniformly defend the number of slots that every country gets (if you will please at some point read my posts, you will see that for example I think Mongolia should have worse research) but as a general principle, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Some countries in this period were better at research than others, and within the timespan that HOI4 covers, no game state will bridge the gap.
 
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general principle, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Some countries in this period were better at research than others, and within the timespan that HOI4 covers, no game state will bridge the gap.
when you say "some countries were better", they were "better" for a reason. when that reason changes, and the # of tech slots doesn't change, you can no longer legitimately cite the interaction as historical. outcomes without their causes are not historical.

if you really believe in what you said in quote, you *must* advocate that usa keeps all of its tech slots, even if its entire mainland is conquered and its only remaining territory is guam...nothing but guam. after all, "no game state will bridge the gap", right?

if you're not willing to make that case, then you yourself disagree with what i've quoted. you cannot take a coherent stance whereby guam-only usa has 5 slots while ethiopia has 4 regardless of size and that's somehow historical. it's impossible.

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conquest per se' influences a nation's ability to research. more population with knowledge (once compliant) *must* have some positive impact. getting conquered/infra destroyed *must* have some negative impact, if you want to pretend the game is somewhat modeling capability of the time.
 
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Return to the HOI3 system! Though I do also like the BlackIce system of dedicated slots for different types of tech.

Regardless of the solution, there has definitely been a sharp increase in the number of techs needed to stay up-to-date with the various designer DLCs and GTD without an increase in ways to perform that research. I will say, it's unfortunate that the licensing system is not that great as it would be a good way to simulate historical sharing of tech between faction members. Maybe the new faction mechanics will help alleviate some of this?
 
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Yet that is exactly what many of the focustree paths and decisions are all about. You can change your ideology within months, conquer your neighbours and form a new fantasy empire (for instance arab or nordic empire) within a year or two, gaining all the conquered populations, industry and navies. Thats how HOI4 is designed, and having research slots be the only exception to this is weird and fits poorly with the rest of the game.
Exactly. That is literally what the game has become, with the ever more fanciful national focus trees.
 
I'm not so incensed by the current system of research slots as many people here are, but I think the system could be better, and absolutely better integrated with the special projects. What I would prefer is a system more like
  1. Research slots are concretised as named research facilities. E.g. The Ministry of Science, the CSIRO, University of Madrid, etc.
  2. Research facilities exist on the map like special project facilities.
  3. Every nation has at least one research facility in its capital.
    1. If the capital moves, that one facility moves with the capital instantly and for free.
    2. The focus tree can unlock certain research facilities on map.
  4. Nations can also build new research facilities. They cost *a lot* of civs to build, take a long time to build, and have a cool down after they're built before they're available to actually do research (it's really hard to hire good people to run a completely new research lab).
    1. You can relocate research facilities to another location. It is cheaper than building a new one but it still has a 'build time' as you disassemble and reassemble the facility.
    2. You can relocate enemy facilities that you capture. This is also cheaper than building a new one but the cool down before it's active is very very long (you didn't think those scientists you abducted were going to be productive on day one, did you ?)
  5. All nations are capped on the number of research facilities that are active at any one time by the number of factories they control (weighed by compliance).
    1. Hypothetically, you activate the first research facility at 0 (everyone gets at least one), the 2nd at 10 factories, 3rd at 25, 4th at 50, 5th at 100, 6th at 200. These numbers are completely made up and don't reflect any deep thinking about balance or realism.
    2. There's a hard cap at 6 active research facilities. No amount of factories can put you over 6 active research facilities.
    3. Players can build as many research facilities as they want but can only use as many as they have factories to support.
    4. This applies to focus tree created research facilities too.
  6. You can mothball one facility to spin up another one if you want.
  7. You can assign scientists or MIOs to research facilities to give them a research boost
    1. You can capture enemy scientists through spy operations or claim them in peace deals. However, they have a cool down before they're available to be assigned.
 
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when you say "some countries were better", they were "better" for a reason. when that reason changes, and the # of tech slots doesn't change, you can no longer legitimately cite the interaction as historical. outcomes without their causes are not historical.

if you really believe in what you said in quote, you *must* advocate that usa keeps all of its tech slots, even if its entire mainland is conquered and its only remaining territory is guam...nothing but guam. after all, "no game state will bridge the gap", right?

if you're not willing to make that case, then you yourself disagree with what i've quoted. you cannot take a coherent stance whereby guam-only usa has 5 slots while ethiopia has 4 regardless of size and that's somehow historical. it's impossible.

-

conquest per se' influences a nation's ability to research. more population with knowledge (once compliant) *must* have some positive impact. getting conquered/infra destroyed *must* have some negative impact, if you want to pretend the game is somewhat modeling capability of the time.
Alright, you got me, the United States of Guam would indeed have reduced research capacity. Ack! I am vanquished! You can indeed make a tall guy shorter by cutting his legs off. You win. Meanwhile, on the up side, which is the side that actually matters and is under discussion, the point remains.
 
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Alright, you got me, the United States of Guam would indeed have reduced research capacity. Ack! I am vanquished! You can indeed make a tall guy shorter by cutting his legs off. You win. Meanwhile, on the up side, which is the side that actually matters and is under discussion, the point remains.
I think we should be able to agree at least that current inconsistent system based on focus tree age and subjective developer "flavor" is bad and either needs to treat all focus trees to a single consistent standard as their peers or be reworked entirely I hope?
 
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Alright, you got me, the United States of Guam would indeed have reduced research capacity. Ack! I am vanquished! You can indeed make a tall guy shorter by cutting his legs off. You win. Meanwhile, on the up side, which is the side that actually matters and is under discussion, the point remains.
there is some degree to which we agree on the underlying point. i gave the guam usa example as an extreme to demonstrate that fact. i also pointed out earlier in thread that you can make a case that everyone has too many slots, but that the problem is inconsistency.

usa slots > usa conquerer slots > small nation's slots seems like a completely reasonable implementation to me. you can somewhat use the capabilities of conquered nations, but with a) reduced efficiency and b) diminishing returns. not only is such an implementation self-consistent, but it's similar to how other things in the game are implemented (occupied territory with compliance compared to core territory for example).
 
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If we could have all research and special projects done exclusively by buildings it could be nice. We could have something like a national research centre building in the capital that could research anything and then buildings for specific types of research and even build more generic research buildings (of course these would be more costly than niche ones).
Maybe a cumulative cost if building more than one research institution in the same state but at least, this way, smaller European countries won’t be completely hamstrung research wise for being territorially small.
Also, it would be nicer if EVERY research also had some slight resource cost attached to it.
And it goes without saying that such an idea would require an entire overhaul of the time it takes for the research to complete.
 
My guess is that ‘it just happened’ without much of a plan or analysis of consequences.
More like 'endgoal moved during run', I think.

Every nation has at least one research facility in its capital.
What is purpose of that research facility?
Or let me rephrase: what is actually a point of giving each one-province minor ability to research anything? Tech is not industry nor army nor focus tree. You can, in fact, play the game without doing any research (through you would probably prefer not to), there is no hard lock like in case of industry (where 0 civilian factories => you cannot build more factories of any type => you have 0 civilian factories). In some old RTS games you actually need to build some kind of laboratory to do R&D, so there is precedence.
 
I feel like most of this discussion is missing the point of actually looking at what in game research represents so let's look at a couple of examples

Aircraft engines progressed significantly through this period but it would be an error to imagine that the real progress was about designing a better engine. If you gave a 1945 engine to the same engine manufacturer in 1936 and asked them to use that design then you would have a big problem. The real issue with stuff like that is how to make it. Most of research is about manufacturing a better engine. To use a more extreme example consider showing a modern Jet engine to the jet engine pioneers in the 1940's. They could disassemble and would be quite happy that they could work out exactly how it works but would be completely and utterly stumped about how to make it. Modern turbine blades might as well be black magic over that timescale. The point I'm making is some technologies are mostly about how to make stuff.

Other technologies are even more not about weapon design. Infantry weapons research in HOI4 is almost entirely about changing decisions about the mix of weapons and quantities of weapons to provide to your infantry. There are some new weapons but there is very little fundamentally new about them. Even the introduction of the StG44 is nothing fundamentally new, it's just a bridge weapon somewhere between SMGs and normal rifles. The biggest change in infantry kit during the war was simply giving them more MGs and Mortars, not really technology at all. This extends across artillery as well. No country had more than one new generation of artillery during the war and almost none of the gun improvements were true technology.

My point here is that the technology system is a proxy for changes in capability escalation throughout the war for whatever reason and I would say that most of that capability is inheritable from occupied foreign territory and therefore the argument that a minor country conquering the USA should inherit a variety of technology capability is entirely valid. Those big companies making aircraft engines don't suddenly forget how to do it or how to make them better. They have a compliance issue that would degrade further progress but that's all.

I would say that the current schemes for this are treated as either an acceptable compromise or should be wholesale replaced by something else. However, I'm not saying there shouldn't be adjustments. Personally I would make sure we have something like the following
  • A significant increase in all research times plus a significant increase in tech slots. I'm inclined to suggest this so as to try to address the issues, especially in MP, around ahead of time research. The reality is that most basic things were being researched full speed all the time. The major powers would have team(s) working on engine designs continuously. I feel like an adjustment like this would help bring things onto a more even keel.
  • Make sure that all focus trees allow close to the same final tech slot count based on total factories. The simple fact is that industrial resources and the design resources for most WW2 equipment would go together and only a few technologies were pursuable via other resources.
I would probably change other things that aren't directly part of the tech system like making tank and aircraft designs not appear instantly but that immediately falls foul of the needing to work with or without relevant DLC which will be one reason it works the way it does work.
 
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What is purpose of that research facility?
Or let me rephrase: what is actually a point of giving each one-province minor ability to research anything?

My suggestion takes as given that HOI4 has never in its history given a tag 0 research slots. You could go further and suggest this as a new part of the game design if you wanted, but I didn't want to add the creation of 0 slot tags as another change on top of the other changes I'm already suggesting.
 
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All of the techs are pushing the limits of human engineering. Otherwise they wouldn't be techs; there would be no point in having them in the game. Yes, special projects are treading on a lot of toes here (just one of the reasons they are a bad addition to the game) but even for the remaining techs: it's not trivial to meaningfully improve a design that's been already been developed over a period of decades or centuries.
Hard disagree. The majority of tech are incremental improvements to existing works. There is absolutely nothing groundbreaking about having to invent a WW1-era biplane, from scratch, in 1960 (common game length for minors with achievements that de facto require world conquest, based on screenshots I've seen here at least). Especially after having been exposed to them (on the receiving end) for decades by that point. It should instead be laughably easy to "invent" obsolete tech.
 
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Hard disagree. The majority of tech are incremental improvements to existing works. There is absolutely nothing groundbreaking about having to invent a WW1-era biplane, from scratch, in 1960 (common game length for minors with achievements that de facto require world conquest, based on screenshots I've seen here at least). Especially after having been exposed to them (on the receiving end) for decades by that point. It should instead be laughably easy to "invent" obsolete tech.
it should be especially easy to do so when you have compliant, fully operational facilities which can and have produced them.

the pony mod has a mechanic called "operation paperclips" which gives huge research boosts to some techs from countries you capitulate. this makes some sense even in actual ww2 context.
 
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it should be especially easy to do so when you have compliant, fully operational facilities which can and have produced them.

the pony mod has a mechanic called "operation paperclips" which gives huge research boosts to some techs from countries you capitulate. this makes some sense even in actual ww2 context.

It should make sense in WWII context. The IRL Operation Paperclip was the American operation to get captured German scientists to work on their own research programs. The real question is how close that gets to banned topics
 
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Think the issue is that this is a one-size-fits-all system that tries to abstract similarity of "levels" between countries that historically were nowhere near on parity with what the game would consider "research".

For the most part in WW2, research outside of HoI4's majors tended to be more scientific and civilian-oriented in nature (Electronics and Industrial techs, basically). As far as the war side of the equation, for the most part, I would say most countries did not "research" more than a couple of technologies historically, and many did literally none at all. Of the countries that did "research", it's pretty disproportionately wrapped up in Infantry Equipment and Artillery.

If you look at the countries that "historically researched" naval techs during this time, for example, you pretty much just have the US, UK, Germany, Italy, Japan, and to a limited degree, France, the Soviet Union and Sweden. Look at Air and once again it's just Majors-sans-China except this time the random minor that "researched" a tech was Romania (and Argentina, I guess, if you count immediate post-war designs). Armor, very similar story. I could go on.

Things get even worse when you look at how even for the majors that changed during wartime. The UK, for example, almost entirely "stopped researching" in in-game terms between early 1940 and the start of 1944. You had a handful of armor designs that went into production after the fall of France, you had the PIAT, and you had the Minotaur and Colossus classes (new Destroyers, though I would argue based on existing technologies) More planes, at the very least, but the majority of them were 1939 designs that just took longer to get into service (even the Spitfire is secretly from '39!)

That said, I would say, for the most part, that the only countries researching more than a handful of techs during the main part of the war are the US, Germany, the Soviet Union, and, to a much lesser extent, the UK, Italy, and Japan.

The real key issue is that there is a missing factor here. Beyond their continued production of pre-war "tech", the bulk of "new" during the war for the UK comprised of Lend-Leased and Licensed technology, and even after many passes, that's still not something that really works all that well in HoI terms. That's a rather happy example for HoI as well, considering that the UK at least still made some new during the time, unlike, say, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, the Commonwealth countries, China, Spain, etc., which, outside of a few specific "techs", essentially went the entire war with nothing but their "starting equipment" and lend-leased/licensed stuff.

Part of that is from the fact that this is a video game that needs to be fun. If the UK explicitly had to rely on Lend Lease and Licenses to the degree that it did in real life to avoid having to just use 1930s technology through the war, the only real way to do that would be to block you from conducting research or make it so slow as to just be a trickle. Nations like Yugoslavia would just be depending essentially entirely on other people both making good equipment and letting them have it. Understandably, that's not awesome game design.

But because of that, everyone kind of has research and design as if they were one of the major nations in the world- and to double the need for that, it can be the case that Hungary becomes Austria-Hungary or Xibei San Ma becomes China all of a sudden. So that said, I don't think the system could ever be reasonably completely upended, without ruining something on one side of the equation or another. Industry Becomes Tech is also awkward, because it's not necessarily true in practice (again, the above British example would kind of ruin that), and also feels more out of sorts without the glut of Civilian-based techs 3 and 2 had.

Think the real deal is, if Licenses, Lend-Lease, and Equipment Buying finally get smoothed out for real, tech slots become a massively smaller issue. The real problems as I see it are, therefore...
1. Licenses are completely non-worthwhile to use due to their heavy penalty on production. Changing that mechanic full stop would break multiplayer games, so something needs to be done where licensed production is very worthwhile for minors while being a smaller luxury for the majors.
2. Lend-Leased equipment is hard to use because if the stream gets cut, it's not easy to just immediately stop using it and your units will suffer. If you're getting lend-leased Tanks as a country that isn't making them (or a certain kind of them) and the flow gets cut, you can't just wear out your existing stockpile in any way.
3. Equipment buying is probably reasonably balanced for the buyer, especially the sort of country that would be most often buying equipment in the game, but the seller still doesn't get enough for parting with what is a key component of their war machine, and thus most of the world market consists of massively obsolete junk and equipment in too small amounts to actually do anything with (it was very common to order 18 tanks or some number like that in real life, can't exactly do that in HoI4...)

Solve these issues in a way that doesn't just directly implant steroids into the MP Allies and having up-to-date research on everything becomes far less important, and the research slot "controversies" probably drop considerably. In particular, recall that, as obscure as the mechanic is, you do get research bonuses for using licensed equipment (even if it could definitely afford to be a bit moreso for more obsolete techs), which fixes the oft-mentioned "inventing biplanes in 1950" issue.

...Though, that being said, it definitely does feel like research in general is on the slower side, and I think it would be good to take a look at either lowering the research times for some hard to justify techs, or at least handing out some more Support Company MIOs.
 
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I feel that the current research slot determination is totally biased. I would prefer a more standardized criteria to determine research slots. Hear me out and don't prejudge... I am spit balling hear but maybe set some achievable measures that allow any country to grow its research slot count and not have it based solely on the focus tree to unlock them. There is a website that tracks patents per country. find out commonalities between the countries that support the possible reason for their innovation.

Criteria could be...
  • Population
  • Industrial base (Civ and/or mil count)
  • Ideology
  • Stability level
  • Other...
We do have to agree that when comparing a country like Nepal in its current state vs. Russia in its current state Nepal does not have the same 'resources' available to support the same level of innovation. In, addition giving Nepal a focus tree to unlock 6 research slots is ridiculous. However, if Nepal ended up capitulating India, then shouldn't it also have access to the same number of research slots India can unlock? (or China or the USA, etc...)

Extreme Ideology example... Cambodia ruled by the Khmer Rouge where they were 'un-aliving' all the educated people. How many research slots should it have? One could argue that any type of Ideological shift could impact research. What new innovations came out of any country post a civil war?

I realize that I've opened that door to a political conversation with this so please let's stick to the goal here....What criteria could be used to allow all countries to achieve that magic 6 research slots that are available to the USA?
 
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Do we really have a problem of lack of research capacity?
If you don't spend time pushing out years ahead of time techs, is there really a problem?
All of aviation techs from 1938-1943 are basically one tech level with 7 techs. 3 aircraft hulls, 1 engine, survivability studies, HMG and torpedoes. That's absurdly little, for how research intensive aviation was.

The navy, and just tanks has far more tech to research.
 
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