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Jolly Joker

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Mar 29, 2012
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I made a thread, saying that empire administration was cumbersome and a turnoff, and that's true mainly because of the UI which isn't really helping the player.

Sectors or not, The Colony as such is the production entity, and we have actually SIX screens, dealing with them. Colony Overview is the first, a simple list of your Colonies. What happens when you click on one of those is, that the strategic map is zooming to it, but there is no way to address the colony as such from there - you actually have to click on the colony center to do that (twice, if there are units on it). Ther reason for that is probably, that there is no actual "colony screen" - instead there are five, and they are not really screens, but lists.
This is the main UI problem, because not only is that completely unnecessary - when you manage colonies, you don't really need to look on the strategic map -, it means, you'll have to click around a lot. It would be much better, if all the information that is now separated on 5 different lists - 1) Producable units; 2) Prooducable Colony Upgrades; 3) Producable Sector Upgrades; 4) Worker Placement within the Colony; 5) List of already built upgrades - were condensed in one screen, so that the player could actually see ALL building options with one look, without the need to click from one to the next, and clicking again to see whether you might accelerate a build by restructuring the worker placement.

I also think, it would be a big help, if the producable units were organized in a different manner. The basic list, whether as it is now or whether as part of a one-screen colony management center, should only contain the basic units, which would keep the list managable. UNits, for which modded versions existed, could be color-coded or highlighted in some way, and a simple mouse-over could then show the modded versions in an overlay.

For colony management it's also not helpful, that you see generally only production times. The actual production value needs a tooltip. Let's look at a couple of shots to see why this is not good.
UI1.jpg This screen shows the unit production list of a colony. Ignore for a moment that it shows, that's something in the builds already. You want to produce a Gunship - 3 turns, right? But the mouseover UI2.jpg shows, that it costs 255 production and we are currently at 125, so actually we should probably reassign a worker to production service to make it in 2 turns - but we can't do it on THIS screen and have to change screen. At this stage we are not sure whether we CAN actually reassign a worker, so we don't click on production, yet. Instead we change screen UI3.jpg and see, yes, we CAN reassign a worker, the guy who is busy in the fields, although food os produced in copious quantities anyway. So copious, in fact, as we see after another close look, that we'll get a new pop NEXT turn, no matter what, however, the building that will give us an additional 6 happiness and 2 more happiness worker slots will be finished in 2 turns only, which can't be good. Might not be that bad either, no idea at this point - but this kind of thing shouldn't happen.

It does happen, though, and it happens, because all pertinent colony information are portioned into different lists and you don't have them together.
Since this is thematically linked to this last screenshot - workers are grouped in 5s, as you can see. So why is that? A 5 separation makes no sense. Instead, why isn't there a thematical separation? The basic colony worker amount is 4, so there should be a separation after that. We have 8 food slots that should be separated 4 - 2 - 2, 4 because of colony and 2 each for 2 food sectors, both on level 2. Small thing, but still...

Because this is still not all the info there is, because there are still sectors and their info. Landmarks and their benefits, exploitation levels and what that means for the colony and so on. The best way to get that info is to click on the colony, then on the sector production list and then via mouseover on the Sector name. Strangely, this is a way better infi presentation than what happens when you click on the sector base.

Face it, sector exploitation as a feature is an invitation to micro-management because micro-management is rewarded; if you go for energy in a sector, for example, you can make units produced THERE cost less energy - so you WANT to produce units there, which means you should do something for your production as well, which means you'll have a special look at worker assignments and so on. And the UI should make the utmost of effort to make life EASY for the player and not a click-fest.

For this first post I have a last thing that is really bothering me, because it's MISinformation. I mean, you know that from AoW 3, already, but it's something I would like to address. You click End Turn, and eventually it's yiur turn again. A lot of things happened. Your resource bar shows your current energy and your projected income - 250 (+ 150). Looks healthy, all great, right? But it actually isn't, because what happened is, that some of your colonies produced something and are IDLE now, and the projected income is already including the part that comes from Idle Energy Production. The the moment comes when you click through the colonies that produced something, enable the new production - and get a fit, because projected energy is now (-30) or something like that.

To change this I'd suggest TWO projected incomes, the current one (as is) and the REAL one (the one WITHOUT the addition of idle energy production).

That's it for now. It's clear, everyone will disagree, because things couldn't possibly be better in any way, but to each their own - I hope this helps.
 
I was with you right till the last paragraph.

Yes the ui is a bit of a mess and condensing it to a clearer and more efficient system would be great. The game had lots of little ui and qol issues that I how are addressed and your suggestions here are good ones.

However why undermine your post with a preemptive passive aggressive, victim section at the end?

Anyway thanks for breaking down the colony ui issues and presenting solutions.
 
I too would like it if Colony Upgrades and Sector Upgrades where on the same page, preferably next to each other and not on the same list.
But for Unit Production, Worker Management and Built Upgrades, I like having them on separate pages.
 
why reply in a way that proves he was right on the money in his assessment lmao, pre-characterizing any disagreement with you as both a foregone conclusion and also the result of a flawed mindset is as pathetic as lashing out at a person who agrees with you and voiced a criticism of you in as mild a fashion as possible.

Since this is thematically linked to this last screenshot - workers are grouped in 5s, as you can see. So why is that? A 5 separation makes no sense. Instead, why isn't there a thematical separation? The basic colony worker amount is 4, so there should be a separation after that. We have 8 food slots that should be separated 4 - 2 - 2, 4 because of colony and 2 each for 2 food sectors, both on level 2. Small thing, but still...

dude is this seriously a thing you're complaining about

have you considered that they're grouped into 5s because multiples of 5 are easier to count than multiples of 4, so you can easily see at a glance how many slots are being used without actually counting them

why would you group them 4-2-2, in what scenario is knowing that 2 slots come from the same source relevant information to you? why do you need any information about your available slots other than "i have 8 of them"



having all the tabs be on screen at the same time isn't a bad idea though. a lot of the time when i'm clicking on a colony i don't need a lot of that info, but if i'm making a complex decision it'd be nice if there was an "expanded view" button i could click next to the tabs that just displays all of them in a row across the screen, in the area where the map would be currently.

on the unit mod thing - i agree that having every mod template in your list gets pretty cumbersome pretty quickly. personally my favored implementation would be "click on the chassis to display a list of templates, click on a template to add it to the queue." it's adding an additional click, but i'm never fond of menus created by mouse-over. it's too easy to make them pop up when you don't want them or disappear when you do want them

personally, i think clicking on a sector should tell you what its exploitation type is, what building has been built in it, the sector's full level 1-5 potential benefits list, and the benefits of the level you are at highlighted, without having to click on anything but the sector. this information can be found in the city management screen, but it requires some digging, which is fine but sometimes you really just want all that info displayed all at once. (all this info is in addition to the info that's already there)

as long as we're talking about sector UI, something that i'd appreciate a lot is separating out the terrain/biome types a bit. currently, the forests and arid tags are considered equal. they're both on the list in the same spot, and when you zoom out the potential exploitation bonuses they give are grouped together and separated out by type. which is useful, but the forest tag and the arid tag are not at all equal, one is a terrain and one is a climate, and those are effectively two different tiers of sector tags, where terrain is t1 and cliamte is t2 (you could call rivers t0.5 and volanic clime/lava rift tier 1.5). there's a really big difference between these two, as you can research the forest improvement pretty early, while researching the arcadian improvement is mid-late game, and that can be a pretty big deal when i'm trying to make colony decisions based on the short term.

if i'm inspecting spots for a potential future colony, and i see a bunch of sectors that say 1 food, and i'm thinking "well that won't be great later but for now i can make that a food sector and get the early boost to expand into other sectors," whether that 1 food comes from a forest or an arcadian tag is a really, really big deal, and the only way i can find out is clicking on the individual sector. which is fine if i only want to see one sector, but if there's multiple options for food, i have to click on all of them? what if i'm planning in advance and trying to look at what production sectors i can move into after that, i'm clicking on 2 sectors with a food icon and 2 sectors with a production icon and then i have to remember which 2 of these 4 sectors are the ones i want. additionally, if i'm seeing several sectors with 2 food icons, there's a world of difference between that coming from a forest and arcadian tag vs a forest and river tag - one of these is effectively just 1 food level for the first 30ish turns, the other is an early game steroid injection to my colony's pop count. so i ahve to click on every one - and i might be considering as many as 5 different sectors here - and remember which ones are better than the others.

i'd propose that the different "tiers" of sector tags be marked in some way on the zoomed out map, be that by some kind of symbol in subtext under the icon, some kind of colored outline, or some third clever way of doing things.
 
Why slip into a shoe that doesn't fit you and undermine your factual agreement with contemptuous psycho babble?

I agree with your post, Jolly Joker, but you undermine it with this behaviour.
 
Why slip into a shoe that doesn't fit you and undermine your factual agreement with contemptuous psycho babble?
Oh, the humility in this one... What you did in the OP and was rightly called out on is an annoying eristic technique of preemtively dismissing any disagreement by labeling it - in this case - as "stupid conservatism". What is especially weird about it is that you provided a sensible, thought out analysis of the problem and your suggested solution - I don't understand why you saw the need to go eristic.

That aside, I actually agree with most of the points you made. There is a lot of information to process on the city screen and having it separated on different tabs makes this information tough to extract. I especially think that worker placement should be available at all times, to better grasp the little optimisations you can do at any given time. I can't help but compare this to Civ V's city screen, which was placed at both sides of the screen with build menu on the left and existing buildings + worker placement on the right. A similar solution would work wonders here.

I also agree that city center and sector building tabs should be merged into one tab. Btw, I think the listed panels should be made more narrow - wide panels and large pictures are aesthetically pleasing, but provide a lot of unnecessary padding.

I completely disagree on your point on projected income, though. What you call misinformation I call accurate representation of what your empire's energy output is. Idling cities produce energy, making your income higher. When you add a build order the city no longer outputs bonus energy, so your projected income is immediately updated. Seriously, how is that misinformation?

The idea of multiple projected incomes sounds somewhat not useless, but not really scallable. It might work when you have one city, but what if you have two? Five? Should one label show expected income as-is and second without any city producing bonus energy? Only the currently selected city? How about cities that are toggled to idly produce research? Nah, I'll pass on that feature.
 
i dunno man an energy income drop down display detailing every possible income you could potentially end your turn with sounds like the kind of feature i need to make the UI easier to read
 
@NINJEW I mean, it's a nice piece of trivia but I don't see many instances where having this knowledge would be that much impactful. Off the top of my head the only such scenario would be optimizing production to energy output to maximize the number of units produced per turn, disregarding everything else (as in, defending a near impossible war or something).

Realistically, you could indeed show regular vs max possible (with all cities idling) output (it's not possible to show every possible combination because when city number grows, number of possible incomes grows exponentially), but this would still be tricky to design with the current system. Should we assume all workers focusing on energy AND production? Keep the current worker setup? Such data would be easy to misinterpret. I just don't think this is important enough to list all the possible variants of income you can make, I never had an issue with the way it's implemented.
 
I'm really impressed and affected by the the righteous indignation everyone is oozing, so much so, that I consider myself unworthy to participate in a discussion with all these goody two-shoes.

Wow, really mature reaction. I'm skipping your threads in the future, because fork that noise.
 
Troll or not, he still does raise some valid points and starts discussions on potentially interesting topics. I say we discuss his arguments and ignore parts where he's trying to pick a fight
 
It was literally in the post above as well. I just explained what was implied in saying the Ring system was not more in depth and just ended up with building all the buildings in a city then spamming the highest tier units. Which didn't seem nonsensical to you above.
 
is JJ really doubling down on this shit

a thread where almost everyone agrees with him and this is the thread he chooses to have a weird angry meltdown in
 
@NINJEW I mean, it's a nice piece of trivia but I don't see many instances where having this knowledge would be that much impactful. Off the top of my head the only such scenario would be optimizing production to energy output to maximize the number of units produced per turn, disregarding everything else (as in, defending a near impossible war or something).

i hate to say it man but i was being sarcastic
 
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