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Vapiritapiri

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Aug 4, 2021
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I dunno, let's say it happens through some lucky midway battles, some kind of sue for peace. Anyway, the allies will come knocking later anyway, and you got a lot of islands to defend, what's the plan to defend them against a superior enemy? Because let's be frank the USA will just regear EVEN bigger and come with some SUPER GIGA armada of ships together with the allies and kick the shit out of the japanese. I guess a island hopping campaign would be needed, but how do defend against such a thing as Japan? It seems the allied victory is inevitable here. And what about raw materials? Sure you get some nice oil, rubber and other stuff from indonesia and china but china is probably not even secured at that point even with all their attention diverted there.
 
They didn't really have much of a plan for a long war, they knew they would lose it. At best a hope that the enemy could be worn down by losses. If anything one of the reasons they started the war is because they knew of the massive buildup of US navy after Battle of France, knew they couldn't match it and knew their only chance in winning a short war was now or never.
 
The Japanese plan always was to expand the defensive perimeter in the Pacific as much as possible by surprise attacks, then lure the US forces in and bleed them until the US would be ready for a negotiated peace.

Which was pretty much the how the Russo-Japanese war went. In the Russo-Japanese war, Japan managed to defeat a much stronger opponent in multiple battles through force concentration and then managed to get a favourable negotiated peace. This "success" clouded Japanese judgment from then on. Japan, by the virtue of being in Asia and thus not really taking part in WWI, missed the advent of total war. And when it tried to fight a limited war with the US juggernaught in the age of total war, it paid the price.

I'll just leave this here. It's a video about Japan and grand strategy from 1919 to 1941. IIRC the question you ask is quite thoroughly answered.
 
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The Japanese plan always was to expand the defensive perimeter in the Pacific as much as possible by surprise attacks, then lure the US forces in and bleed them until the US would be ready for a negotiated peace.

Which was pretty much the how the Russo-Japanese war went. In the Russo-Japanese war, Japan managed to defeat a much stronger opponent in multiple battles through force concentration and then managed to get a favourable negotiated peace. This "success" clouded Japanese judgment from then on. Japan, by the virtue of being in Asia and thus not really taking part in WWI, missed the advent of total war. And when it tried to fight a limited war with the US juggernaught in the age of total war, it paid the price.

I'll just leave this here. It's a video about Japan and grand strategy from 1919 to 1941. IIRC the question you ask is quite thoroughly answered.
This. And well said.
 
I dunno, let's say it happens through some lucky midway battles, some kind of sue for peace. Anyway, the allies will come knocking later anyway, and you got a lot of islands to defend, what's the plan to defend them against a superior enemy? Because let's be frank the USA will just regear EVEN bigger and come with some SUPER GIGA armada of ships together with the allies and kick the shit out of the japanese. I guess a island hopping campaign would be needed, but how do defend against such a thing as Japan? It seems the allied victory is inevitable here. And what about raw materials? Sure you get some nice oil, rubber and other stuff from indonesia and china but china is probably not even secured at that point even with all their attention diverted there.
Yamamoto, educated at Harvard University in America, was more than aware of the awesome might of American production.

He knew he had a year, maybe two, to run at full speed then dig in. The goal was to make the American's bleed to take back what was theirs and leave Japan to control the Eastern Pacific in peace.

If Rochefort had not read the Japanese codes, if atmospheric conditions did not ping the positions of the IJN CVs NE of Hawaii two days before the attack through RDF when inbound radio waves bounced off their receivers - IF the carriers had been caught in port, the war would have been far bloodier.

That being said, Japan was small potatoes. Item One was Adolf Hitler with the Pacific remaining a second tier theater fought with a world class navy.
 
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Yamamoto, educated at Harvard University in America, was more than aware of the awesome might of American production.

He knew he had a year, maybe two, to run at full speed then dig in. The goal was to make the American's bleed to take back what was theirs and leave Japan to control the Eastern Pacific in peace.

If Rochefort had not read the Japanese codes, if atmospheric conditions did not ping the positions of the IJN CVs NE of Hawaii two days before the attack through RDF when inbound radio waves bounced off their receivers - IF the carriers had been caught in port, the war would have been far bloodier.

That being said, Japan was small potatoes. Item One was Adolf Hitler with the Pacific remaining a second tier theater fought with a world class navy.
"I fear that all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." - Attributed to Yamato
I was actually looking for this when I stumbled on that
"They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche; and what I fear is, they will overwhelm the South.”"
 
Yamamoto, educated at Harvard University in America, was more than aware of the awesome might of American production.

He knew he had a year, maybe two, to run at full speed then dig in. The goal was to make the American's bleed to take back what was theirs and leave Japan to control the Eastern Pacific in peace.

I mean, the IJN formally cancelled or at least put on indefinite hold their pre-war plans to keep up with American naval construction, the Circle 5 and Circle 6 replenishment plans. Not that they were ever realistic anyway.
 
I mean, the IJN formally cancelled or at least put on indefinite hold their pre-war plans to keep up with American naval construction, the Circle 5 and Circle 6 replenishment plans. Not that they were ever realistic anyway.

Reverse the question.

Japan holds in China. They take Singapore, the Dutch East Indies, and the entire island of New Guinea. They don't take Australia but Australia is isolated.

Japan controls Midway, the Solomons and everything in between. And all they are doing is pouring concrete made out of rugged volcanic sand.

The fleet withdraws, Japan's logistical situation improves wihtout forward Allied sub resupply ability. Japan

Good luck, America. You're gonna need it.
 
Reverse the question.

Japan holds in China. They take Singapore, the Dutch East Indies, and the entire island of New Guinea. They don't take Australia but Australia is isolated.

Japan controls Midway, the Solomons and everything in between. And all they are doing is pouring concrete made out of rugged volcanic sand.

The fleet withdraws, Japan's logistical situation improves wihtout forward Allied sub resupply ability. Japan

Good luck, America. You're gonna need it.

I meant pre war. They knew they couldn't keep up with US navy after the gloves came off with fall of France. Yamamoto's wisdom was not unique in that.

As far as wartime, a big strategic challenge for Japan would be Nimitz's iron fist: ServRons. It would be practically impossible for Japan to deny US bases since US could just bring the base with them. As far as I know, Japan had not even considered that possibility, heck some of the sites USN used were unoccupied by Japanese.
 
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To answer the OP - What's the plan for Japan if they win the Pacific. Well, it really depends on, which kind of victory Japan achieves. If it becomes a hegemony (the word is highly used in another thread) in the Pacific, but its enemies do not sign peace, rather they are licking their wounds and preparing for a counter-attack, that gives Japan less opportunities and it must also prepare and build for the Allies future offensive.

But if the Allies sign peace with Japan in the Pacific, recognizing the Japanese victory there, then there are much more opportunities for Japan. For instance, to concentrate more to the Asian mainland, to the British Raj or they can start a war against the Soviet Union.
 
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From what I know, everything in the Pacific revolved around China.

Japan wanted Chinese resources, manpower and markets - in short, they wanted to join the Western colonial empires by colonizing China. Both of the Sino-Japanese wars, the Russo-Japanese war, the Manchurian incidents and the final grand invasion of China were all directed to that end. Korea and Taiwan were stepping stones - China was the prize.

The United States was determined to preserve an independent China and thus frustrate Japanese empire-building. American embargoes on oil and other raw materials did not deter the Japanese, but instead made them determined to double down - to widen the war, grab resources from the Western powers and thus be able to complete the absorption of China. To repeat - Japan's purpose in fighting the US and UK was to gain a free hand in China, and an examination of how Japanese Army resources were allocated in WW2 shows that.

So... I agree with people who have said that Japan could not win a war against the US and UK, nor - after Pearl Harbor - were they ever going to get a negotiated peace without giving back all of their conquests, including China.

IF there had been some great catastrophes in the war in Europe, and had Japan played its hand with more subtlety and avoided outright war then the western allies might have tried to postpone a clash in the Pacific until Germany and Italy were defeated. I think this is all very unlikely .

But, had Japan somehow come out of WW2 with the East Indies and SE Asia under its control, the conquest of China would have followed - I think China was always the goal and everything else was a means to that end.
 
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But, had Japan somehow come out of WW2 with the East Indies and SE Asia under its control, the conquest of China would have followed - I think China was always the goal and everything else was a means to that end.

Yes, China was the goal. And the matter remained so throughout the WWII, as the historical events happened as they did.

But, let us remember, Stalin was able to reinforce the Soviet European Front (the Eastern Front of the WWII) to halt the Axis' invasion and make a counter-attack by the units and forces which he withdrew from the Soviet Far-East Front in late 1941 - early 1942. He dared to do so while the Soviet intelligence found out the Japanese plan, to attack the US at the Pacific.

This situation changes quickly, if alternatively, the US signs peace with Japan and Japan wins at the Pacific. Now, with extra forces available, Japan might re-think, and cooperating with the Nazi-Germany, Hirohito might attack the weakened Soviet Union in the Far East.
 
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Yes, China was the goal. And the matter remained so throughout the WWII, as the historical events happened as they did.

But, let us remember, Stalin was able to reinforce the Soviet European Front (the Eastern Front of the WWII) to halt the Axis' invasion and make a counter-attack by the units and forces which he withdrew from the Soviet Far-East Front in late 1941 - early 1942. He dared to do so while the Soviet intelligence found out the Japanese plan, to attack the US at the Pacific.

This situation changes quickly, if alternatively, the US signs peace with Japan and Japan wins at the Pacific. Now, with extra forces available, Japan might re-think, and cooperating with the Nazi-Germany, Hirohito might attack the weakened Soviet Union in the Far East.

The Siberian reinforcement were mainly from Central Asia and Inner Siberia rather than the Japanese border in the Soviet Far East, which remained fairly strong through the war (strength circa million men IIRC). Maybe they didn't have the latest tanks, but BTs were still pretty decent in comparison what the Japanese had.

I don't think the ultimately fairly modest ground forces Japanese committed to conquest of SEA and Pacific, if committed to Manchuria instead, would have been sufficient to allow for Japanese conquest of Far East. Though they might have taken Vladivostok and even if they didn't war between Soviets and Japan would have effectively cut the Siberian lend-lease route anyway.
 
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From what I know, everything in the Pacific revolved around China.

Japan wanted Chinese resources, manpower and markets - in short, they wanted to join the Western colonial empires by colonizing China. Both of the Sino-Japanese wars, the Russo-Japanese war, the Manchurian incidents and the final grand invasion of China were all directed to that end. Korea and Taiwan were stepping stones - China was the prize.

The United States was determined to preserve an independent China and thus frustrate Japanese empire-building. American embargoes on oil and other raw materials did not deter the Japanese, but instead made them determined to double down - to widen the war, grab resources from the Western powers and thus be able to complete the absorption of China. To repeat - Japan's purpose in fighting the US and UK was to gain a free hand in China, and an examination of how Japanese Army resources were allocated in WW2 shows that.

So... I agree with people who have said that Japan could not win a war against the US and UK, nor - after Pearl Harbor - were they ever going to get a negotiated peace without giving back all of their conquests, including China.

IF there had been some great catastrophes in the war in Europe, and had Japan played its hand with more subtlety and avoided outright war then the western allies might have tried to postpone a clash in the Pacific until Germany and Italy were defeated. I think this is all very unlikely .

But, had Japan somehow come out of WW2 with the East Indies and SE Asia under its control, the conquest of China would have followed - I think China was always the goal and everything else was a means to that end.
In the Axis and Allies board game the strategy is to have Japan take Russia from the East while ignoring America.

If it works in a game it should work in real life. Right?
 
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As others have said, Japan counted on capturing territory and setting up a defensive perimeter that would cost so much for the Western powers to overcome that they would sue for a negotiated peace. That brings us to the question of if that was possible.

Posters more familiar with the US political situation may correct me but my impression is that by the end of the war the will to send more Americans to their deaths was quite low. The US was willing to let Stalin have Manchuria and Korea in exchange for the Soviets joining the fight, indicating some desperation to end the war quickly and with as few casualties as possible.

If the Japanese Pacific campaign had gone better and Japan is in the situation Andre describes a few post above, would the US not have agreed to a negotiated peace?
 
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As others have said, Japan counted on capturing territory and setting up a defensive perimeter that would cost so much for the Western powers to overcome that they would sue for a negotiated peace. That brings us to the question of if that was possible.

Posters more familiar with the US political situation may correct me but my impression is that by the end of the war the will to send more Americans to their deaths was quite low. The US was willing to let Stalin have Manchuria and Korea in exchange for the Soviets joining the fight, indicating some desperation to end the war quickly and with as few casualties as possible.
That wasn't desperation so much as the Americans being largely unable to stop the Soviets from taking those territories anyways.
If the Japanese Pacific campaign had gone better and Japan is in the situation Andre describes a few post above, would the US not have agreed to a negotiated peace?
Certainly not. The Japanese were occupying Indonesia, Indochina, the Philippines (!) and big chunks of China, fairly late into the war. There were big American, British and Commonwealth armies in the field, slowly reconquering these colonies, and more troops were to come from France and the Netherlands as the war in Europe was winding down and they raised me divisions from the liberated populations. They totally were coming for Japan, and no amount of fortified atolls in the central pacific was going to stop them.

Japan had bitten off way too much when they declared war on the Europeans and Americans. With Germany defeated and the European powers free to focus their efforts on Asia, there were just too many approaches towards Japan wide open to cover effectively

1) Approach across the atolls, yeah it's going to cost time to do an island hopping strategy. But with a depleted Japanese navy, the allies could isolate atolls as they wished. Still the best defended part of the Japanese perimeter and a long way to cross before an American island hopping campaign gets into any important areas for Japan

2) approach from India - the commonwealth and Indian armies were fighting across Burma and the British navy was coming to retake Singapore. The Americans could have assisted this offensive if they chose to, and shifted focus there from the island hopping. Very difficult for the Japanese to affect an attrition strategy when their industry is already in tatters and can't replace planes and ships like the allies can.

3) Aleutian approach - daring but not logistically impossible. Certainly not for the Americans. So basically, if the Japanese fortify the central pacific, the Americans can still do island hopping along the Aleutian islands, then into the Kuriles, and that's already a place within B29 range to Tokyo. From there to Sakhalin, and you have a base to prepare the invasion of the home islands. The climate is terrible and the sea is foggy much of the year, but it's really only a minor number of islands and geographically actually the shortest route from American ports to Japan. And for the Japanese navy it is impossible to defend this at the same time as a combined allied navy drives across southeast Asia.

4) China and the war effort against Japan on the Asian mainland. With the war against Germany concluded, the Soviets as well as the Americans are free to bring greater aid to the Chinese, who were fighting a pretty hard fought war on the Asian mainland. The Japanese position against China wasn't bad but also not good enough to withstand active intervention, particularly from the Soviets. It doesn't really matter how good the Japanese position in the pacific is, when Stalin decides it's time to move in on Manchuria and Korea. The Japanese army wasn't equipped or supplied well enough to withstand the Soviets and given industrial limitations even wildly successful naval campaigns against the Americans and Europeans would not have changed that.

Basically, so long as major allied territories are under Japanese occupation, there's no motivation for the allies to seek a negotiated settlement. There would still be strong political will to prosecute the war effort and expend blood, and wealth, in order to win these territories back, expel Japan from her conquests, and then see about getting them to surrender.

I do think though that a full invasion of the home islands might not have happened. At some point the Indian army (which had seen fairly effective nationalist propaganda from the INA) would demand the withdrawal of Indian contingents from the commonwealth war effort and a start to the independence process. The French wanted Indochina back but would have found that the effort consumed much of their remaining power, leaving very little available to help the Americans. Same for the Dutch who, after reclaiming Indonesia, would find that the pacification of the reclaimed colonies tied up almost all of their military resources. The Americans, mostly alone vs Japan, would seek to starve and bomb Japan into submission just like in OTL. An Aleutian approach, with submarines and a huge bomber fleet operating out of Sakhalin, would allow this to happen much like an approach from southeast Asia would, where Taiwan and Luzon would be the staging bases for this final phase of the war.

So, no, a more successful pacific campaign for Japan does not put her into a more favorable position following Germany's defeat. They were done for.
 
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I believe there was enough anger left in the US over Pearl Harbor and Japanese treatment of enemy soldiers and POWs that the US would have continued the war up to and through the invasion of Kyushu. Had casualties been as high as projected, then I just don't know if the invasion of the main island would have taken place, but there weren't going to be any Vietnam-style anti-war riots. My bet is on the US going on until the Japanese surrendered, no matter the cost.

One lesson the US learned from WW1 was that not finishing the job just meant you had to come back and do it all over again.

Staggering casualties might push the US military to seek another path - ie bombing and blockade - or it might just make the US military adopt MacArthur's plan and push through no matter what. The A-bombs and the Emperor's moral courage certainly saved both the Allies and the Japanese a lot of casualties and suffering. But I do not doubt the US public was willing to see the war through - there might be more hatred of the Japanese after a Kyushu invasion, but nobody was talking about just making a peace short of complete surrender. If it had been necessary the US could have put together another million soldiers (at least) - during the war the Army was constantly scrapping divisions it had planned to build pre-war, not adding new ones. And then too there is the freeing up of the armies in the European theater.

Losing Sicily brought down the Italian government and it is possible that losing Kyushu would do the same for Japan, in a way that city-bombing and the loss of Okinawa could not. That might or might not bring down the Japanese government - I think the loss of Kyushu would shake them more than the firebombing and A-bombing - or the military might have overthrown the emperor and tried to fight on, but it would have been a terrific shock to the system.


American appeals to the Soviet Union against Japan were mostly made in the earlier parts of the war. By 1944 the US was not so interested in Soviet 'help' so they stopped asking for it, but couldn't un-say the requests they had already made.


The US Navy had begun an unprecedented building program years before Pearl Harbor, so it is true that the US would have the materiel to fight and win a Pacific war even if Coral Sea and Midway went for the Japanese. The US could have lost its entire pre-war fleet and replaced or exceeded it by the end of 1944. It is worth noting that the US cancelled a lot of naval and aircraft construction in 1944 and 1945 because they could see that existing strength would be enough.
 
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I believe there was enough anger left in the US over Pearl Harbor and Japanese treatment of enemy soldiers and POWs that the US would have continued the war up to and through the invasion of Kyushu. Had casualties been as high as projected, then I just don't know if the invasion of the main island would have taken place, but there weren't going to be any Vietnam-style anti-war riots. My bet is on the US going on until the Japanese surrendered, no matter the cost.

One lesson the US learned from WW1 was that not finishing the job just meant you had to come back and do it all over again.

Staggering casualties might push the US military to seek another path - ie bombing and blockade - or it might just make the US military adopt MacArthur's plan and push through no matter what. The A-bombs and the Emperor's moral courage certainly saved both the Allies and the Japanese a lot of casualties and suffering. But I do not doubt the US public was willing to see the war through - there might be more hatred of the Japanese after a Kyushu invasion, but nobody was talking about just making a peace short of complete surrender. If it had been necessary the US could have put together another million soldiers (at least) - during the war the Army was constantly scrapping divisions it had planned to build pre-war, not adding new ones. And then too there is the freeing up of the armies in the European theater.

Losing Sicily brought down the Italian government and it is possible that losing Kyushu would do the same for Japan, in a way that city-bombing and the loss of Okinawa could not. That might or might not bring down the Japanese government - I think the loss of Kyushu would shake them more than the firebombing and A-bombing - or the military might have overthrown the emperor and tried to fight on, but it would have been a terrific shock to the system.


American appeals to the Soviet Union against Japan were mostly made in the earlier parts of the war. By 1944 the US was not so interested in Soviet 'help' so they stopped asking for it, but couldn't un-say the requests they had already made.


The US Navy had begun an unprecedented building program years before Pearl Harbor, so it is true that the US would have the materiel to fight and win a Pacific war even if Coral Sea and Midway went for the Japanese. The US could have lost its entire pre-war fleet and replaced or exceeded it by the end of 1944. It is worth noting that the US cancelled a lot of naval and aircraft construction in 1944 and 1945 because they could see that existing strength would be enough.

Definitely agreed, only to add that there was definitely a racial element to it as well. After all, the Japanese-Americans seem to have been interned in camps as a blanket rule, while German-Americans were judged on a case by case basis. There were those (in)famous Gallup polls conducted during the war as well.

In Dec 1941, it seems 97% of those Americans polled agreed that war with Japan was necessary, 51% believed the war would be a long one and 65% thought it would be difficult and costly, which is interesting given that one would expect stereotypes of the time to argue for an easy war against such weak enemies. Only 36% thought it would be short and 25% that it would be easy.

In 1942, 48% believed interned Japanese-Americans should not be allowed to return to their homes after the war. The followup question of what to do with them yielded results of "Send them back to Japan" (50%), "Put them out of this country" (13%) and "Leave them where they are - under control" (10%).


In short, it seems unlikely anything would stop the Americans in WW2 from trying to beat Japan, no matter what it cost. It's an interesting contrast to Germany, as before 1943, it seems like despite everything, the possibility for a negotiated settlement was there and who knows what might have happened if Normandy had gone badly.
 
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On further reflection, although this topic has come up a bunch of times over the years, the starting point has always been always just before the war or after the invasion of China has already happened, when Japan was already locked into this path. I don't remember anyone ever explaining how Japan ended up being so diplomatically isolated in such a short time, after being an Entente member in WW1 and a British ally in the interwar period, aside from maybe some mumbling about military assassinations.

If it were still a British ally, might there have been more leeway given to expansion in China? Maybe with playing up the Soviet threat to the Far East more than they did? It seems to have worked in another area of the world for the Germans, for a time at least....